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diabolical globalist
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 10,017
Perhaps more bizarrely, can you be denied an abortion whilst awaiting your own execution?
Will I be charged with another murder if I have an abortion during my execution?
Perhaps more bizarrely, can you be denied an abortion whilst awaiting your own execution?
I value the life of the unborn baby higher than I do the right of the mother to not have a baby.
But the state does have a right to intervene at some point. The Justices in Roe set that point after 12 weeks. This was, of course, later modified to be after viability. In other words, the state has a legitimate interest in protecting both mother and fetus from conception, but the interest in protecting the fetus becomes greater after viability.
It doesn't really matter what semantics we use to describe the right under question. Effectively, women have a right to abort up until viability. Whether that right stems from privacy in medical decisions or from some other fundamental liberty is secondary in this discussion.
Sure, up until viability, then the state has a strong interest in protecting the life of the fetus.
That is a matter of opinion. If you opine that women should have a right to terminate whenever they want, then your opinion would clash with the decision reached in Roe, most State laws and the opinions of most people in America.
You are describing social problems which definitely need to be solved.
Abortion is a very different issue from organ donation and smoking.
I don't think the Texas law will change access to abortions one iota. There is no undue burden to abortion. There are no more roadblocks now than there were then.
Why does the woman have a right to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man doesn't? Or conversely, why does the woman get to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man does? Simply because it's her body?The former trumps the latter.
Are you saying that the government should pay for abortions? I don't think you will find many who agree with you. Abortions should be available, but not paid for by the government.And if that's insufficient, women are just SOL? And you say that with the full knowledge that you will never, ever have to worry about being affected one bit should Planned Parenthood be unable to pay for the care of all the women that need it?
That was pretty idiotic. She couldn't see the contradiction. I support CHIP coverage for needy pregnant women under the theory that we are actually covering and protecting the unborn child. That is one issue where I differ from Republicans in Texas.The same Republican representative that sponsored this bill also wanted to take away CHIP coverage from pregnant women, because the fetuses those women were carrying didn't count for coverage because "they weren't born yet".
So I hope you'll forgive me for being less than convinced that women's health is still safe in Texas.
This bill doesn't make things any worse than they are now. Rural Texas residents will still have to drive to a major city to get an abortion. That's the way it's always been. The only way to solve that is to increase funding for abortions to unprecedented levels and that isn't going to happen. Besides, it makes no economic sense to put an abortion clinic in a rural city.How is "things are bad now" in any way, shape, or form a mitigating factor in for making them even worse?
That will be a factor in my voting decisions, yes.So you plan to vote against candidates running for the Texas legislature which oppose this, yes?
Simply because it's her body?
There is an amazing amount of law based on the quaint notion that we get to decide what we want to do with our own bodies. Are you unaware of this concept?
I think SCOTUS is not likely to strike down the Texas law because it is within the window of a definition of viability. We'll see.The state has a legitimate duty to promote the health and welfare of the mother and child, yes. However their 9th Amendment protection does not allow for intervention until 28 weeks; this has since been modified as viability has been researched though viability is relative. Time of development honestly is not a strong standard of viability since internal factors influence that. Viability declines with younger pregnancies, with teratogenesis, and health of the mother.
That is a strange way of looking at it. It is an induced biological event. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion; that might be a biological event. But an induced abortion is a conscious decision to end the life of the fetus. At some point, your right to make that decision becomes inferior to the protection of the fetus.Actually the issue of semantics here is that the "right" to abortion is not an event that can be codified; abortion is NOT a procedure it's a biological event.
I can terminate my child's life at any stage of the game. This fact does not make such termination acceptable. I don't think the state will "piss off" if I terminate my 4 year old.That is NOT a semantic issue. The interest a State has is in the procedure of abortion given by physicians but a woman can have an abortion at any stage. They often don't have one in the late stage because that's actually difficult, dangerous and most all doctors will NOT perform one because of the first two parts; State laws shouldn't even be drafted in this. This is a matter of ACTUAL health, not health as dictated by the states. So they need to piss off.
How can the State protect the unborn child then?The interjection of viability as a matter of state interest is reasonable in regards to preserving the well being of the unborn child but it should NOT allow for the states to dictate the availability of the procedure.
Adoption infrastructure exists. Childcare exists. No one has banned abortion, only restricted it in the interest of the child.If the states were to actually take their 9th amendment duty seriously then they should be involved in providing infrastructure and services in lieu of abortion such as effective adoption infrastructure or home childcare infrastructure. All bans on abortion are ignoring their actual duty in favor of again, tickling their moral scrotum.
How is providing an abortion (especially in the later stages of pregnancy) promoting the health and wellbeing of the child?A strong interest is one thing. Eliminating abortion procedures (and by a TERRIBLE system of time rather than individual development and circumstance) effectively reduces the capacity for healthcare providers to promote both health and well being for mother AND child.
I can terminate my 4 year old whenever I want as a biological FACT. Should this not be prevented by law?I opine that the state laws consider any of this as a "right" as dictated by law at all. It's RIDICULOUS. A woman can terminate whenever she wants as a biological FACT not as dictated by law. Again if I were as misguided as you I'd just outlaw cancer.
If I live in rural Texas, chances are I will have to travel quite a distance to get my cancer treated. That's just reality. There can't be hospital every 30 miles.Do you know what that Texas law did? Here, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you cancer. A really bad kind. You won't know you have it until a few weeks, the most critical weeks for survival. And you know what I'm then going to do? I'm going to make sure each clinic within 30 miles has to make sure they obey some of the most ridiculous and disproportionate regulations. Your clinic will need to meet emergency ambulance infrastructure regulations. It will need to have an attending physician with privileges of one of those hospitals within 30 miles, oh and by the way most all those hospitals will NOT allow for most of these physicians; cancer goes against their morals. They won't allow for treatment of cancer, because you used to smoke and you're responsible!
Now I don't know how you interpret this but this was just a bunch of weaseling and perversion of MY field of public health in order to promote a sadistic ideology.
Yes. A woman's blood and organs belong to her, no person on the planet has a right to them without her approval. There's no precedent allowing a husband to volunteer use of his wife's blood and organs to anyone against his wife's wishes.Why does the woman have a right to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man doesn't? Or conversely, why does the woman get to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man does? Simply because it's her body?
There is an amazing amount of law based on the quaint notion that we get to decide what we want to do with our own bodies. Are you unaware of this concept?
Why does the woman have a right to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man doesn't? Or conversely, why does the woman get to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man does? Simply because it's her body?
I've heard the argument in other places that if the man didn't want to be a father, he shouldn't have had sex. Why wouldn't that argument hold true with women?
Are you saying that the government should pay for abortions? I don't think you will find many who agree with you. Abortions should be available, but not paid for by the government.
This bill doesn't make things any worse than they are now. Rural Texas residents will still have to drive to a major city to get an abortion. That's the way it's always been.
The only way to solve that is to increase funding for abortions to unprecedented levels and that isn't going to happen. Besides, it makes no economic sense to put an abortion clinic in a rural city.
I am quite aware of it. But there are equal amounts of law based on the notion that we cannot do whatever we want to with our bodies and certainly not with the bodies of third parties.
I can't sell my kidney. I can't snort coke. I can't kill other people. I can't make other people donate organs to save my life. I can't force a woman to carry my baby.
I don't see this as any different. A man should be able to decide whether or not he wants to be a parent. In the present scheme of things, a woman makes that decision not just for herself, but for the man as well. Her decision what to do with her body affects the man directly -which makes it more than just a decision that only affects her. Add to that the unborn child and it makes it that much less about her.
I'm afraid I can't provide a cite, or even more than a passing recollection of what I read (in "The New Yorker") but I'll give it my best....Abortion is a symptom of a failed reproductive education program for states. You don't cure it by restricting abortion because it will further racial and socioeconomic disparities. If you want to prevent abortion then you should be providing more interventions towards contraceptive use and childcare assistance, something this bill was not intended to actually do. It's a spiteful bill written by a bunch of ideological pricks with little concern for these public health issues and would rather jerk off to their ignorant moral attitudes.
A man should be able to decide whether or not he wants to be a parent.
I think SCOTUS is not likely to strike down the Texas law because it is within the window of a definition of viability. We'll see.
That is a strange way of looking at it. It is an induced biological event. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion; that might be a biological event. But an induced abortion is a conscious decision to end the life of the fetus. At some point, your right to make that decision becomes inferior to the protection of the fetus.
I can terminate my child's life at any stage of the game. This fact does not make such termination acceptable. I don't think the state will "piss off" if I terminate my 4 year old.
By using ACTUAL intervention measures. If they want to promote the health of a "viable" fetus they can go out and buy a surrogate uterus (either technological or transplant). I have no idea if this is even feasible but THAT is how a state can protect the unborn child. Otherwise prohibiting abortion violates their duty.How can the State protect the unborn child then?
Adoption infrastructure exists. Childcare exists. No one has banned abortion, only restricted it in the interest of the child.
How is providing an abortion (especially in the later stages of pregnancy) promoting the health and wellbeing of the child?
I can terminate my 4 year old whenever I want as a biological FACT. Should this not be prevented by law?
If I live in rural Texas, chances are I will have to travel quite a distance to get my cancer treated. That's just reality. There can't be hospital every 30 miles.
No tax money was spent on abortion provision in Texas. Planned Parenthood in Texas explicitly chose that path in order to continue receiving government support.There's no requirement to spend tax money on abortions. If Texans want abortions to be available, then they will make donations to PP and other agencies to keep them afloat. And for poor women, Medicaid continues to provide comprehensive benefits including family planning, pap smears, etc.
Gee, you "feel for" them. That's generous. Would you like to share with us your ethnicity, your education level, and your income? I ask because I have a strong suspicion that you are living a pretty easy life and have no idea what the women you "feel for" have to deal with.Sure I do. I was a teen dad. My girlfriend (now wife) had to choose between having a kid and taking a full-ride to Texas A&M. She chose the kid.
I feel for women in those situations and I think we need to find a way to make life better for them. But not at the expense of a viable baby.
There's a big difference between sixty miles and two hundred miles. Are you aware of the fact that every clinic west of IH-35 will have to close under these rules? Look at a map of Texas.How is it untrue?
There will be no more roadblocks than currently exist. I spoke earlier about rural areas already having a lack of abortion clinics. People already have to drive to larger cities to get them. No greater burden there.
Women will still have access to abortions, just only until 20 weeks. That isn't an undue burden.
So what is the greater burden?
Yes, "simply because it's her body." What ivory tower do you live in? Because the woman has to deal with all the physical risks of pregnancy and delivery, and, if the man chooses to walk away, all the financial and social burdens of raising a child alone.Why does the woman have a right to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man doesn't? Or conversely, why does the woman get to decide she doesn't want to be a parent but the man does? Simply because it's her body?
Gosh, maybe you haven't noticed, but women often have much less choice in the question of whether or not to have sex than men do. And I'm not talking just about rape. I'm also talking about cultural and social practices and pressures that dictate that women yield to men in the arena of who initiates sex and who gets to say yes or no, even in the context of marriage. Those pressures often also discourage the practice of contraception.I've heard the argument in other places that if the man didn't want to be a father, he shouldn't have had sex. Why wouldn't that argument hold true with women?
Certainly you can. You just can't get caught. The coke traffic between Mexico and the United States gives the lie to that assertion.I can't sell my kidney. I can't snort coke.
Only in so far as he can find a woman willing to carry a baby for him.I don't see this as any different. A man should be able to decide whether or not he wants to be a parent.
I think it should be more of an opt-in strategy. A man has to opt-in to accepting parental rights and responsibilities. This would apply to babies conceived out of wedlock. In a marriage, the man opts-in by default. And once one opts-in they can never opt-out.So kids don't deserve parental support? Why shouldn't a man be able to walk away from his kids at any time?
He can refuse to be a parent. However he can't, legally, decide to not to pay for the welfare of his child.
I can't reconcile the thinking that says a woman can opt-out of parental responsibilities by opting for an abortion; but, the man is automatically opted-in if the woman decides to keep the baby. There's something fundamentally wrong with that. Why do women get a special right that men do not have?
If your answer is because their biology gives them that right, I would say that the woman would not have the decision to make at all if there were no man; the male biology is equally necessary for conception.
I think it should be more of an opt-in strategy. A man has to opt-in to accepting parental rights and responsibilities. This would apply to babies conceived out of wedlock. In a marriage, the man opts-in by default. And once one opts-in they can never opt-out.
(As an aside, this is a problem I forsee in gay marriages. If two women are married and one conceives through IVF, does the other one have parental rights automatically. If they later divorce, can the non biological parent give up the rights and responsibilities? But that's something for another topic.)
I can't reconcile the thinking that says a woman can opt-out of parental responsibilities by opting for an abortion; but, the man is automatically opted-in if the woman decides to keep the baby. There's something fundamentally wrong with that. Why do women get a special right that men do not have?
If your answer is because their biology gives them that right, I would say that the woman would not have the decision to make at all if there were no man; the male biology is equally necessary for conception. We allow men to be sperm donors and sign away any parental rights and responsibilities so what's the difference here?
When a fertile man and woman engage in consensual sex, there is an underlying acceptance that the union, however fleeting and regardless of either's intentions, could result in a baby. They should both have equal ability to opt-in to the parental rights and responsibilities of that baby.