Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[bynmdsue]

1. Tracy Martin refused to allow the police access to the phone for weeks. He made sure he and Crump got to talk to her first, perhaps to concoct a story. We'll never know why.
2. It was the State's Attorney office that interviewed her in the presence of Martin's mother, not the police.

1. Tracy a.k.a. Fruit had a lot of deleting to do.

2. Not only in her presence but the state picked Rachel up and drove her to Sybrina Fulton's house to do the interview on her living room couch with a whole house full of people. Seems a little inappropriate.

 

[Bardy]

George told a story of having his head repeatedly slammed against the concrete sidewalk, but they physical evidence doesn't back up this tale. None of the crime scent photos show evidence on the sidewalk of a head being slammed against it. And the two small cuts on George's head are far too minor to have been the result of the head slamming he described.

Testimony in court from witnesses with medical training indicated otherwise:

Zimmerman's injuries [are] consistent with having his head hit against concrete more than once

I consider that to be important corroborating testimony.

George's injuries are consistent with being in a scuffle, not a beating likely to result in serious injury or death. The very next day when he took the police on a walk through the crime scene, the only signs of his fight the night before are bandages covering the two small cuts on his head. His face was not swollen, no black eyes, no missing teeth, no raw abrasions, no trouble with any of his movements.

As I've said before, none of this is necessary for a valid self defense claim for the very reasons given by Sam.I.Am above. In any fight where punches are being thrown, the next one can end in your death. I know this sounds hyperbolic, but history is replete with people being punched and having deadly seizures, banging their heads against concrete and dying. Single punches caught on tape have broken peoples' skulls. Example:

(I can't post links yet, but you should google 'Kermit Washington infamous punch' and read the wiki article.)

Washington hit Tomjanovich with a roundhouse punch. The blow, which took Tomjanovich by surprise, fractured his face about one-third of an inch (8 mm) away from his skull and left Tomjanovich unconscious in a pool of blood in the middle of the arena. Jabbar likened the sound of the punch to a melon being dropped onto concrete ... Tomjanovich was in no condition to fight despite his aggressiveness; besides having the bone structure of his face detached from his skull and suffering a cerebral concussion and broken jaw and nose, he was leaking blood and spinal fluid into his skull capsule. His skull was fractured in such a way that Tomjanovich could taste the spinal fluid leaking into his mouth ... The doctor who worked on Tomjanovich said "I have seen many people with far less serious injuries not make it" and likened the surgery to Scotch taping together a badly shattered eggshell.

All from one punch. Whether you're involved in an agreed-upon stickfight to the death or a seemingly minor scuffle, the reality is that if punches are being thrown, lives are legitimately in danger. This is all you need to reasonable use deadly force to defend yourself.

Also, I notice that all of my replies tend to be directed towards you. I hope you realise it's nothing personal - it's just that your posts seem to best represent the continuing arguments that because GZ didn't look very injured, he either wasn't in a serious fight, or didn't have the right to shoot. I can't agree with those arguments.

 

[bynmdsue]

The bottom line was and is George Zimmerman is a killer.

Yep, and if I shove an old woman out of the way of an oncoming out-of-control bus then I'm no better than someone who shoves an old woman down and steals her purse. After all we're both in the category of "People Who've Shoved Old Women"

Or maybe there's a little nuance to it all that's being overlooked. AG Holder can call it an "unnecessary shooting death" but a jury has found the complete opposite.

 

[Kestrel]

Based on GZ's phone recording my opinion is that GZ was going to continue to look for TM.

When asked how the police should find GZ they discussed meeting at GZ's house or at GZ's vehicle by the T, but GZ asked that the police call his cell phone. To me, this means that GZ didn't want to go wait it out, he wanted to continue to search for TM. Something else that leads me to believe this is GZ's comment, "These guys always get away." GZ's state of mind after making such a comment would further exemplify that he was going to do whatever he could to prevent that from happening this time.

Actually GZ said "these ********, they always get away". Lets not get into the trap of inventing what people say when we can post the real words.

 

[Kestrel]

There are plenty of examples of one punch leading to someones death. The person throwing the punch had no intention of killing that person. The most recent one that comes to mind is the soccer coach who died from a single punch to the head by a... wait for it... 17 year old male. (Link)

This is why the standard is that there doesn't have to be serious injuries (or any injuries at all actually as the law reads) to be able to apply deadly force in a self-defense case. There only needs to be a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm. As the above link shows there is a reasonable expectation that even a single punch can (note that I said can and not will) lead to serious injury and\or death. In this case there were already multiple blows to the head and there was something in play harder than a fist. A concrete sidewalk.

Yes, there was a sidewalk. There are sidewalks all over this country.

And since George said his head was bashed repeatedly against he sidewalk, we must believe it. Never mind that there isn't any physical evidence to support it. George's face didn't get pounded into a pulp, but most people seem to think it did. George's skull wasn't caved in from being repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk, he only has two small cuts. People believe that George was under the evil Trayvon being pounded for a minute or so, but we can't seem to figure out where all those blows landed. Why no cracked ribs, massive bruising, raw damaged skin? In the movies, the hero's knuckles never seem to show any wear. But in real life, fists get damaged in fights. Trayvon's hands show no signs they were used to deliver the numerous punishing blows we heard about in the George's description of what happened.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Yes, there was a sidewalk. There are sidewalks all over this country.

And since George said his head was bashed repeatedly against he sidewalk, we must believe it. Never mind that there isn't any physical evidence to support it. George's face didn't get pounded into a pulp, but most people seem to think it did. George's skull wasn't caved in from being repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk, he only has two small cuts. People believe that George was under the evil Trayvon being pounded for a minute or so, but we can't seem to figure out where all those blows landed. Why no cracked ribs, massive bruising, raw damaged skin? In the movies, the hero's knuckles never seem to show any wear. But in real life, fists get damaged in fights. Trayvon's hands show no signs they were used to deliver the numerous punishing blows we heard about in the George's description of what happened.

If the claim about TM slamming GZ's head into the sidewalk is true, the EMTs who treated him should be fired because they should have taken him to the hospital to be evaluated for a possible concussion.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

But in real life, fists get damaged in fights.

According to scientists and medical experts, who I am pretty sure are studying "real life", sometimes they don't. Or sometimes they might not show obvious evidence of it. Or sometimes they might show very minor evidence of it.

I would also guess, and note I am saying it's a guess, since I would defer to a medical expert rather than my "common sense" about "real life", that if a person fights a lot, that their fists could become less likely to bruise than someone that doesn't fight a lot.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Since GZ was 28 and not a high school student, what is the relevance of this question?

TM won the fight. He may have viewed it as a typical high school boy would have (at least one from my generation), which is when won boy has clearly won and sent a message to the other boy the fight stops.

As to question 2, I don't know. Do you have some statistics to share ?

Just personal experience from having spent 4 years in a high school, in which there were a number of fights but the only time someone was injured was when he was slugged from behind by another student whom he didn't even see coming at him.

 

[Cylinder]

George's skull wasn't caved in from being repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk, he only has two small cuts.

There were numerous defects on Zimmerman's head. The state's own witness concluded that Zimmerman's head suffered four distinct blows minimum. You can argue about the seriousness of Zimmerman's injury but you should not deny the objective evidence of their existence.

Any rational person knows that every instance of head meeting concrete does not necessarily result in skull fractures - if it did, then it wouldn't be such a popular building material, right? There's a lot of people that have played street ball...or rode a bike...or a skateboard.... Not all head injuries manifest broken skin, right? Even fatal ones? How does that happen? Do you agree that instead of broken skin and skull fractures that impact with concrete can present as bruising or swelling? What are punctate injuries? Why do these mechanisms of injury suddenly cease to apply just because the patient's name is Zimmerman? In a rational world, they don't.

I'm not going to post my blue arrows. That part of the discussion is over. The actual evidence has been presented in court and those factual disputes resolved. More important than my interpretation of the evidence of injury, a Florida jury found that the circumstances in which Zimmerman found himself constituted reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury.

 

[shuize]

I've read many comments suggesting what a "tragedy" it was that young Trayvon was shot. While I'm not happy he's dead, I'm certainly not sad either. If I were to put myself in Zimmerman's shoes and someone jumped me and beat me MMA style for a minute or more, the only tragedy in my mind would be that I didn't shoot him sooner.

 

[bynmdsue]

Trayvon's hands show no signs they were used to deliver the numerous punishing blows we heard about in the George's description of what happened.

Too bad the defense didn't get someone to testify that a sudden cessation of blood pressure would prevent bruises from showing up on the surface. That the hands would have to be opened up and examined to determine any actual bruising. Oh wait they did. And the state's ME testified that he did not open up the hands.

 

[Giz]

Trayvon, who could not defend himself against slander and libel became a vile criminal in the media.

Trayvon? It's Zimmerman who's had his name relentlessly smeared as a racist murderer.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Martin's provable wrong was his decision to confront Zimmerman, assault him, and to press that attack beyond simple assault. Trayvon Martin at the very least attempted aggravated assault against George Zimmerman. Those facts are undisputed by the evidence and not disputed by the state in any cogent manner.

Could be...I suppose...I guess... was the basis of the inculpatory allegations by the state.

The evidence fairly clearly demonstrates that Martin put in action the circumstances that caused his own death. He chose poorly. The tragic nature of his death does nothing to alter the circumstances of it. The fact that he was a black teenager does nothing to restrict the lawfulness of Zimmerman's observing a common area for activity he thought was suspicious. It does not create some exclusion zone around Martin. It does not obviate Martin's legal and moral responsibility to control his own actions.

How (under FL law) is TM fighting back against an armed GZ who never identified himself as representing authority not self defense? Had TM been able to have wrestled the gun away and then shot and killed GZ he should have been able to get off the way GZ just did (assuming he came up with a reasonably-sounding narrative as GZ did).

In that case as in this one we would have only that survivor's account to go by.

Seems like a "jump ball" situation in the game of basketball except possession in this instance wasn't over who was able to tap the ball to a team mate but, rather, who was left standing and able to declare self defense.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Why no cracked ribs, massive bruising, raw damaged skin? In the movies, the hero's knuckles never seem to show any wear. But in real life, fists get damaged in fights.

People get "ground and pound"ed all the time in professional fights, and very rarely suffer severe injury. The problem is, if the person on the bottom has no means of escape, and there is no bell, no referee to call a TKO, there is nothing ultimately to stop the person on top from eventually beating the loser unconscious and potentially killing him.

I've watched professional fights, and if those fights had happened in the street, with no ref, the way they happened in the ring, many of them could have resulted in serious injury or death had the winner wished to take it that far. If Martin had managed to beat Zimmerman unconscious, it would have then been trivial for Martin to finish him off if he wished to. With no ref, no one to stop the assault, there is absolutely a reason to fear for your life if you are trapped on the ground being beaten up. The specific injuries that were inflicted before the gunshot are immaterial to the question of self defense.

 

[bynmdsue]

So State's Attorney Angela Corey just called Zimmerman a murderer in a CNN interview. As a lawyer shouldn't she be aware that words have specific meanings?

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Yes, there was a sidewalk. There are sidewalks all over this country.

And since George said his head was bashed repeatedly against he sidewalk, we must believe it. Never mind that there isn't any physical evidence to support it. George's face didn't get pounded into a pulp, but most people seem to think it did. George's skull wasn't caved in from being repeatedly slammed into the sidewalk, he only has two small cuts. People believe that George was under the evil Trayvon being pounded for a minute or so, but we can't seem to figure out where all those blows landed. Why no cracked ribs, massive bruising, raw damaged skin? In the movies, the hero's knuckles never seem to show any wear. But in real life, fists get damaged in fights. Trayvon's hands show no signs they were used to deliver the numerous punishing blows we heard about in the George's description of what happened.

Read that link again. One punch. On grass. 17 year old male. Dead adult referee. You missed the point yet again. The law, not my opinion, not your opinion, the law holds that all a person needs to have in order to legally apply deadly force is that they are in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm at the moment that they applied it.

I have shown you a situation where a single punch to the head has actually, not in some hypothetical, killed someone in as comparable a situation as possible. It matters not a bit if the other person realizes that they could kill you. I'm quite sure that the 17 year old who hit the referee had any intention of killing him. But he did kill him.

Now add in the concrete sidewalk. There's a reason why we make people on bicycles wear helmets. There were a large amount of people who fell over or lost control of their bikes and ended up with severe head injuries and death from what should have been minor injuries as shown by the marked reductions in those types of injuries.

Now I can say that when I was a teenager that bike helmets weren't around for everyday use, there were barely pads on the more pointy bits of a BMX type bike. I wiped out plenty of times and aside from bumps, bruises and road rash I came out unscathed. But there was always the chance that I wouldn't have been so lucky and instead of typing this out here I could be eating out of a straw somewhere happily watching Barney the dinosaur video tapes. People are much more aware today than we were back then about such things.

There is no reason to assume that Zimmerman wasn't aware of the dangers of head injuries related to concrete. It's been pounded into us (pun not intended) for decades now.

As to evidence we have Dr. Di Meo's testimony as an expert saying otherwise. Keep in mind that this man had quite literally written the book on these types of injuries. He saw 6 separate injuries to the head and testified that any one of them may have led to something much worse.

 

[Newtons Bit]

How (under FL law) is TM fighting back against an armed GZ who never identified himself as representing authority not self defense?

It would be legal. But when did GZ assault TM again?

 

[Mike!]

How (under FL law) is TM fighting back against an armed GZ who never identified himself as representing authority not self defense? Had TM been able to have wrestled the gun away and then shot and killed GZ he should have been able to get off the way GZ just did (assuming he came up with a reasonably-sounding narrative as GZ did).

In that case as in this one we would have only that survivor's account to go by.

Seems like a "jump ball" situation in the game of basketball except possession in this instance wasn't over who was able to tap the ball to a team mate but, rather, who was left standing and able to declare self defense.

What was TM "fighting back" against when he attacked GZ in the first place?

 

[Kestrel]

People get "ground and pound"ed all the time in professional fights, and very rarely suffer severe injury. The problem is, if the person on the bottom has no means of escape, and there is no bell, no referee to call a TKO, there is nothing ultimately to stop the person on top from eventually beating the loser unconscious and potentially killing him.

I've watched professional fights, and if those fights had happened in the street, with no ref, the way they happened in the ring, many of them could have resulted in serious injury or death had the winner wished to take it that far. If Martin had managed to beat Zimmerman unconscious, it would have then been trivial for Martin to finish him off if he wished to. With no ref, no one to stop the assault, there is absolutely a reason to fear for your life if you are trapped on the ground being beaten up. The specific injuries that were inflicted before the gunshot are immaterial to the question of self defense.

Your assumption seems to be that a teenager will always beat a man to death. They don't ever stop unless they are shot dead like a vicious animal.

Or does that assumption only apply to black teenagers?

 

[Kestrel]

Did Georges injuries result from Trayvon pounding his head against the sidewalk, or from the scuffle resulting from when George tried to tackle Trayvon to make sure he didn't get away?