Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TellyKNeasuss]

The question not answered is why was TM giving up before the gun came out ???? How does this make sense ?

1) How common is it to have a fight between high school boys?
2) How common is it for a high school boy to be seriously injured in a fight?

Answering these 2 questions should help solve your dilemma.

 

[RandFan]

I kind of think it was the right verdict, but justice wasn't served.... if that makes sense.

It is indeed a system, and like all systems it sometimes fails. It's IMO clear that the system failed and that failure should be addressed.

Justice was definitely not served here.

Understood. I respect your opinions.

I do too, in part. As I've said, I didn't watch the full trial. This, I can't say much about the jury unless they speak to the media.

A can, however, say something about some people here, as well as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, and Geraldo Rivera. Some of them are professional trollers, and some are just gleeful to dance on the grave of a young black guy who was just walking down the street. They're all disgusting, though.

Agreed. It's unfortunate that the case became right vs left and Trayvon, who could not defend himself against slander and libel became a vile criminal in the media. A thug that god wanted dead according to Zimmerman.

 

[WildCat]

The only witness besides George to the start of the altercation was the girl on the phone with Trayvon. She testified that the last thing she heard was Trayvon saying "get off, get off". George has not witnessed Trayvon committing any crime. He does not have the right under Florida law to forcibly detain Trayvon. Doing so is considered assault.

That's what she said after she had a month to think about it and in contact with Crump et al anyway. And she admitted she lied under oath in order not to hurt Martin's mother's feelings. Her value as a witness for the state was questionable at best.

 

[Kestrel]

Would a reasonable man presume that Trayvon intended to kill George due to the horrendous nature of George's injuries?

If not, on what grounds do we conclude that Trayvon intended to kill George?

 

[WildCat]

Nope. Zimmerman gave contradicting and self-serving testimony, so I have no doubt that he lied.

Perhaps one of these days you can illustrate exactly what those self-contradictions and lies are. It's too late for you to come galloping to the recue of the criminal case with your observations the attorneys for the state of Florida all missed, but perhaps they will be helpful in any civil case!

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

1) How common is it to have a fight between high school boys?
2) How common is it for a high school boy to be seriously injured in a fight?

Answering these 2 questions should help solve your dilemma.

1. How common is it to have a fight between two adults? (not very common I think)

2. How common is it for an adult to be seriously injured when he's attacked in the dark by a stranger? (common enough under those circumstances that it should be cause for extreme fear if it happens)

Answering these these 2 questions should help solve the dilemma of why GZ was terrified for his life.

As for your point, it's valid, and it's possible TM had just given up as GZ shot him. However considering the forensic evidence of how close they were when the shot happened, and the fact that GZ was still screaming up to that moment, it seems unlikely.

 

[Dcdrac]

The bottom line was and is George Zimmerman is a killer.

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything provaby wrong when GZ alone decided he was and TM had every legal right to be where he was.

If this had happned in the UK GZ would be facing a manslaughter conviction, but we do not have such dangerous Wild West Laws like Stand your ground here.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

It is indeed a system, and like all systems it sometimes fails. It's IMO clear that the system failed and that failure should be addressed.

Justice was definitely not served here.

Clearly not, but hopefully there will be some investigations and consequences for all the prosecutorial misconduct.

 

[Toontown]

Nope. Zimmerman gave contradicting and self-serving testimony, so I have no doubt that he lied.

He passed the lie detector on the key issues.

I'll give you a generous 25% probability that the arch criminal, in addition to his other infallible criminal talents, can also beat a lie detector. That's 2.5 times the probability the high estimate of lie detector validity would give.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...e-detector-test-after-shooting/1#.UeQmAI3VDso

 

[boooeee]

Despite claims that Obama has exploited the Trayvon situation for political gain, I think his statements regarding the case have been very measured and responsible. I long ago came to the conclusion that Zimmerman's account of what happened was largely consistent with the facts and this was a clearcut, if unfortunate, case of legitimate self-defense. But it's still tragic that a seventeen year old boy died and that a mother and father lost their son. Trayvon (in my opinion) did a rash, stupid thing, as seventeen year old boys sometimes do. Most of them don't pay for that stupidity with their lives though, but I don't think it is Zimmerman's fault that he did.

The Justice Department is saying that they are looking at civil rights charges, which they are pretty much obligated to. My belief (hope?) is that they will not pursue charges against Zimmerman. I think the Martins will move forward with their civil case, though (which I think they will lose).

Although the Justice Department bringing charges will allow Fox News and the rest to continue to cast Eric Holder as some sort of race-baiting, rights-grabbing bogeyman. What is up with the right wing's obsession with Holder? Is it the mustache? It's the mustache, isn't it?

 

[ABC10]

It is indeed a system, and like all systems it sometimes fails. It's IMO clear that the system failed and that failure should be addressed.

Justice was definitely not served here.

It is just as obvious to me that justice was served. In any event, the Jury has spoken.

 

[ABC10]

I do too, in part. As I've said, I didn't watch the full trial. This, I can't say much about the jury unless they speak to the media.

A can, however, say something about some people here, as well as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, and Geraldo Rivera. Some of them are professional trollers, and some are just gleeful to dance on the grave of a young black guy who was just walking down the street. They're all disgusting, though.

No one is dancing on this 17 year olds grave. As a reminder, Trayvon got shot because he attacked and assaulted George Zimmerman not for walking down the street. I find it astonishing that with all the evidence produced at trial, that that fact is still being misrepresented. That is disgusting.

 

[RandFan]

Trayvon got shot because he attacked and assaulted George Zimmerman not for walking down the street.

Can you cite where that was a finding of fact? AIU, Zimmerman was found not guilty. The jury didn't find him innocent. There is a difference. That he was found not guilty does not mean that the defense proved each and every element of their case.

If the jurors are interviewed and the state that they found that the defense did prove their case then that will be a legal fact. Of course legal facts are often wrong. Jurors do get it wrong sometimes.

I would be happy to concede and accept any legal finding of facts. Just bear in mind that legal facts are often different from scientific facts.

 

[theprestige]

The bottom line was and is George Zimmerman is a killer.

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything provaby wrong when GZ alone decided he was and TM had every legal right to be where he was.

If this had happned in the UK GZ would be facing a manslaughter conviction, but we do not have such dangerous Wild West Laws like Stand your ground here.

First, "stand your ground" was not part of the case.

Second, a jury considered the evidence, and concluded that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, that Zimmerman did not provoke the assault, and that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

People are, of course, entitled to their own opinions, but I think it's important that we not gloss over these facts.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

1. How common is it to have a fight between two adults? (not very common I think)

Since TM was 17 and a high school student, what is the relevance of this question?

2. How common is it for an adult to be seriously injured when he's attacked in the dark by a stranger? (common enough under those circumstances that it should be cause for extreme fear if it happens)

Answering these these 2 questions should help solve the dilemma of why GZ was terrified for his life.

As for your point, it's valid, and it's possible TM had just given up as GZ shot him. However considering the forensic evidence of how close they were when the shot happened, and the fact that GZ was still screaming up to that moment, it seems unlikely.

The "fact" that GZ was the one screaming is open to dispute. I'm having a little trouble visualizing someone screaming for help while pulling a gun out of a holster. and firing the gun (it seems to me to be neither physically realistic nor something that someone who was in the process of shooting someone else would think of doing). Of course, I'm having almost as much trouble visualizing someone being able to pull a gun out of a holster while having his head pounded into the pavement (even if it happens all the time in TV shows and movies).

 

[Dissolution]

The bottom line was and is George Zimmerman is a killer.

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything provaby wrong when GZ alone decided he was and TM had every legal right to be where he was.

If this had happned in the UK GZ would be facing a manslaughter conviction, but we do not have such dangerous Wild West Laws like Stand your ground here.

This wasn't a Stand Your Ground case and the UK doesn't allow pistol ownership, so it's not really relevant.

 

[Kestrel]

No one is dancing on this 17 year olds grave. As a reminder, Trayvon got shot because he attacked and assaulted George Zimmerman not for walking down the street. I find it astonishing that with all the evidence produced at trial, that that fact is still being misrepresented. That is disgusting.

The girl on the phone with Travon when the fight started testified that the last thing she heard was Trayvon saying "get off, get off". This indicates it was George who escalated the conflict to a physical fight, not Trayvon. She was the only witness besides George to the start of that conflict.

This is of course impossible for a lot of people to believe. Their cultural bias predisposes them to ignore this evidence and persist in believing that the it must be the black, male teenagers who started the fight. Just as their cultural bias leads them to accept that a black kid wouldn't think twice about beating a man to death.

Or perhaps you believe the girl was lying. But if she was lying, why did she tell the court that Trayvon used slurs when talking about the guy that was following him that night? Rachel didn't sugar coat her story to make Trayvon look good.

 

[Newtons Bit]

No one is dancing on this 17 year olds grave. As a reminder, Trayvon got shot because he attacked and assaulted George Zimmerman not for walking down the street. I find it astonishing that with all the evidence produced at trial, that that fact is still being misrepresented. That is disgusting.

I've been listening to NPR this morning. The numbers of untruths being told by the callers and hosts has been staggering.

The most popular ones have been

This was a SYG case
The 911 operator (instead of the NEN operator) ordered GZ to stay in his car
TM was racially profiled by GZ
GZ 911 calls (instead of NEN calls) were predominately about scary black men.​

I would expect the hosts to be able to correct these things.

 

[Toontown]

The bottom line was and is George Zimmerman is a killer.

Trayvon Martin was not doing anything provaby wrong when GZ alone decided he was and TM had every legal right to be where he was.

If this had happned in the UK GZ would be facing a manslaughter conviction, but we do not have such dangerous Wild West Laws like Stand your ground here.

Apparently you have no right of self defense either. Or much in the way of an understanding of the evidence.

Stand your ground was not an issue in this case. There was no ground being stood. GZ's case was presented as simple self defense against an assault from which he was unable to escape. That case is consistent with the preponderance of the evidence, and that case prevailed before the jury.

 

[bynmdsue]

The state's star witness, Rachel "that's real retarded, sirrrr" Jeantel will appear on Piers Morgan tonight. Viewership expected to nearly double from 6 persons to 10.