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Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

Skeptic Ginger said:
Since when can one not say that it's beyond doubt GZ lied?


Since now.

Even putting the nearly minute long cries for help, which the jury properly concluded came from Zimmerman, the state's case was effectively over when their own witness -- the only real eyewitness -- put Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him MMA style. The fact that the prosecutors had this evidence in their pocket and chose to charge Zimmerman anyway shows what a racially-driven show trial this was all along.
 
Well, hate to break it to you but some of us do believe the prosecution did prove its case.
But can you provide a chain of reasoning from the evidence presented in court that supports an course of events that show GZ violated Florida law? And do so in a way that is beyond reasonable doubt? Certainly the prosecution could not do that. I doubt anyone else can either. GZ may be a liar and a scumbag or whatever, but that does not prove him guilty of a crime under the law.
 
I agree, you did post something along the lines of TM giving up, then GZ shot him.

Still doesn't sound like a plausible scenario to me.


And what about it do you find not plausible?
Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for moderated thread.


George's injuries are consistent with a single hit, perhaps an elbow dislodging an attacker from behind and a subsequent fall backwards onto the sidewalk. And note that I only say "consistent with". Calls for proof that this is what happened will be discarded. Evidence that this would not be possible will be looked at.

Where is the evidence of the continual beating that George took in those two or three minutes that he was screaming for help? Where is the evidence of the multiple slams his head took on the sidewalk? There would have been blood on the sidewalk at that location. Why was it not seen? Why was it not looked for?

Where is the blood on Trayvon's hands? Sure, I heard one of the experts being cross examined admitting that blood flows down so blood from George's nose would have gone down his throat. I'll remember that next time someone claims they sprayed coffee on their keyboard and monitor. The coffee should have gone down your throat and not sprayed out when you laughed or screamed.

Again, the evidence is consistent with George going down and Trayvon getting on top and holding him down to keep him from hurting himself or others until help arrived.



The state could not meet their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden is different in a civil case. We'll see how that goes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Some the misconceptions/falsehoods that people are still repeating:

1) The Florida "Stand Your Ground" law was involved in the trial.
2) Zimmerman disobeyed orders from the police.
3) A round chambered demonstrates an intent to use the gun.
4) The Sanford police didn't take Zimmerman into custody and/or didn't conduct an investigation of the incident.
5) Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon Martin

What else?
 
IMO: Justice is a system and not an outcome. I accept the verdict and I am happy to say that justice was served.
 
IMO: Justice is a system and not an outcome. I accept the verdict and I am happy to say that justice was served.

I kind of think it was the right verdict, but justice wasn't served.... if that makes sense.
 
And what about it do you find not plausible?
Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for moderated thread.

That he would continue on after John Good came out, as evidenced by GZ continued screaming, then to all of a sudden stop.

The forensics do not agree with "backing up" according to an expert. Perhaps the expert, the actual guy who wrote the book.

George's injuries are consistent with a single hit, perhaps an elbow dislodging an attacker from behind and a subsequent fall backwards onto the sidewalk. And note that I only say "consistent with". Calls for proof that this is what happened will be discarded. Evidence that this would not be possible will be looked at.

Not consistent with a single blow, again, according to the experts.


Where is the evidence of the continual beating that George took in those two or three minutes that he was screaming for help? Where is the evidence of the multiple slams his head took on the sidewalk? There would have been blood on the sidewalk at that location. Why was it not seen? Why was it not looked for?

He wasn't screaming for help for 2 -3 minutes. C'mon Dan, you should know the actual facts. Please don't twist them to try to make a point.

Where is the blood on Trayvon's hands? Sure, I heard one of the experts being cross examined admitting that blood flows down so blood from George's nose would have gone down his throat. I'll remember that next time someone claims they sprayed coffee on their keyboard and monitor. The coffee should have gone down your throat and not sprayed out when you laughed or screamed.

Again, the evidence is consistent with George going down and Trayvon getting on top and holding him down to keep him from hurting himself or others until help arrived.

The state could not meet their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden is different in a civil case. We'll see how that goes.

Yes, in the civil case where Trayvons fighting, dope smoking, gun buying, and being kickced out of his mothers home can all be in the mix.

Don't see it happening, but I will be happy to discuss it when it does happen.
 
Since when does a lie have to be believed?

Since when can one not say that it's beyond doubt GZ lied?

I know a lot of people are just so sure there is reasonable doubt. Prosecution has to prove the case, yadda yadda. Well, hate to break it to you but some of us do believe the prosecution did prove its case.

The 2012 Florida StatutesGZ claims he felt his life was threatened, but the prosecutor proved he told self-serving lies about everything and his injuries weren't life threatening.

The prosecutor proved GZ profiled and followed TM.

The prosecutor proved the attack did not occur the way GZ claims, it was impossible GZ pulled the gun the way he claims. The gun had to be out sooner.
If he was afraid of Martin, he wouldn't have gone after him. His gun says he was not afraid. TM was shot on the grass not by the sidewalk so GZ could not have been having his head slammed on the cement at the time of the shot.

I fail to see how the jury is required to find reasonable doubt under those circumstances just because GZ claims he feared for his life when all the evidence proves by circumstances he did not.

He proved it by sitting on a mannequin ? I don't think so.

It's also clear you misunderstood what he said, because in no way did the prosecution claim that the gun was out earlier.

Again, I ask you to please present the prosecutions theory of what happened. I still haven't seen it.
 
But can you provide a chain of reasoning from the evidence presented in court that supports an course of events that show GZ violated Florida law? And do so in a way that is beyond reasonable doubt? Certainly the prosecution could not do that. I doubt anyone else can either. GZ may be a liar and a scumbag or whatever, but that does not prove him guilty of a crime under the law.


A Trayvon Martin was found dead of a single gunshot to the chest in the yard behind the apartment where he was staying. George Zimmerman was discovered near the scene in possession of a 9mm hand gun. Ballistics subsequently confirmed that the bullet was fired from that gun. A witness overheard George saying that he just shot a kid.

But then, this was in Florida.
 
Some the misconceptions/falsehoods that people are still repeating:

1) The Florida "Stand Your Ground" law was involved in the trial.
2) Zimmerman disobeyed orders from the police.
3) A round chambered demonstrates an intent to use the gun.
4) The Sanford police didn't take Zimmerman into custody and/or didn't conduct an investigation of the incident.
5) Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon Martin

What else?

That Zimmerman was on patrol.
 
But can you provide a chain of reasoning from the evidence presented in court that supports an course of events that show GZ violated Florida law? And do so in a way that is beyond reasonable doubt? Certainly the prosecution could not do that. I doubt anyone else can either. GZ may be a liar and a scumbag or whatever, but that does not prove him guilty of a crime under the law.

The only witness besides George to the start of the altercation was the girl on the phone with Trayvon. She testified that the last thing she heard was Trayvon saying "get off, get off". George has not witnessed Trayvon committing any crime. He does not have the right under Florida law to forcibly detain Trayvon. Doing so is considered assault.
 
The state could not meet their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The burden is different in a civil case. We'll see how that goes.


I doubt a civil case against Zimmerman will get very far. However, you're right that the standards of evidence are different. Accordingly, it would be interesting to see if Trayvon's history of fighting comes in a civil case.
 
IMO: Justice is a system and not an outcome. I accept the verdict and I am happy to say that justice was served.

It is indeed a system, and like all systems it sometimes fails. It's IMO clear that the system failed and that failure should be addressed.

Justice was definitely not served here.
 
"The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son. And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis. We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that’s a job for all of us. That’s the way to honor Trayvon Martin." —President Obama: http://wh.gov/laNQE
 
Carried over from the closed thread:
Should those responsible for bringing the case be disciplined?
Not for bringing charges in the first place. Though the affidavit of probable cause appears to have contained claims the prosecution knew were false or exaggerated. They should be held accountable for that if it can be proved.

As for the actual conducting of the prosecution, there were a couple things that the prosecution did that absolutely merit disciplinary action, and perhaps even disbarment. First, the prosecution tried to withhold the text messages that the IT specialist recovered from Martin's phone. Those texts were clearly exculpatory, in that they showed that Martin had experience and skill in fighting, which would tend to make it more plausible that Zimmerman was on the bottom (which was a material factual issue in dispute). The IT specialist blew the whistle on this Brady violation, and the defense got the evidence - but not until just before trial. The judge then denied a continuance that the defense requested in order to properly authenticate the texts, and then excluded the texts as evidence because they were not authenticated (applying the wrong legal standard for authentication in the process). That alone would have been solid grounds for reversal had GZ been convicted. Oh, and the IT guy who called out the prosecution for withholding the texts from the defense? Angela Corey fired him for doing it. Expect a lawsuit over that. It will not just be forgotten.

Then there was the child abuse/felony murder ambush. The state had an argument that had clearly been in the works for weeks at least (and it was still pathetically weak, but that's neither here nor there). But they didn't give the defense a heads up. Not that a heads up would have mattered, because 5th Amendment Due Process requires that the prosecution specify from the outset what statutes the defendant allegedly violated. They can't just have a trial and then decide what to charge. (Manslaughter as a lesser included is different, because murder 2 requires all the elements of manslaughter plus malice, which means there is no element of which the defense did not have fair notice.) The idea that the state must specify the charges in advance is one of the most fundamental principles of constitutional criminal procedure. Apparently none of the prosecutors were paying attention when they taught that in law school. Or they just didn't care.

In addition, the prosecutor tried to claim that the predicate felony of child abuse consisted of the very act of pulling the trigger, which is not allowed either, though this screw-up is perhaps more a matter of pathetically bad lawyering than one of prosecutorial misconduct. The predicate felony must be separate from the act of killing, or else the two merge into a single charge of murder or manslaughter. Otherwise, every manslaughter would also be felony murder, because in every homicide you can say that the perp killed the victim while committing the felony of killing the victim. Any first year law student would know this, so it is difficult to believe the prosecutors were not aware that their argument was completely frivolous. And springing it on the defense that morning, when it had clearly been planned for some time, is just another indication of how dirty and underhanded the prosecution's handling of the case was.

Ms. Corey ought to be very concerned. Not because she pursued charges in the first place, but because of how the prosecution (at her direction) conducted the case. I would not be at all surprised if she is severely sanctioned.
Thanks Freddy, really interesting. Can you go into more detail on the text messages and how the judge applied the wrong standard for authentication? I have no idea about the legal side of it but it did seem to me that she was setting an almost impossibly high standard for authenticating the messages; by her logic any text message might in theory have been sent by someone else and so shouldn't be admitted.
 
IMO: Justice is a system and not an outcome. I accept the verdict and I am happy to say that justice was served.

I do too, in part. As I've said, I didn't watch the full trial. This, I can't say much about the jury unless they speak to the media.

A can, however, say something about some people here, as well as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, and Geraldo Rivera. Some of them are professional trollers, and some are just gleeful to dance on the grave of a young black guy who was just walking down the street. They're all disgusting, though.
 

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