Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Of course it's absurd. It's a lie they told to the press to make it look like there was a clean-up.

Here's my post about it from 2010:

....Barbie Nadeau wrote, "But the lack of fingerprints has raised eyebrows. Those who believe Knox is guilty say this points to a cleanup. Those who defend her, including her attorney Carlo dalla Vedova, say that the police weren’t doing their jobs. He asked one of the investigators why fingerprints were not taken from other objects in the house, such as her books and guitar. “It is me and the officer responsible for the inspection who decides what should be analyzed,” testified Antonino Francaviglia. “We decide based on our investigative experience."
You will recall that the police also relied on their investigative experience and intuition to recognize that Amanda was guilty of the murder, before they had collected ANY evidence. Steve Moore's discussion on injusticeinperugia provides a good description of the massive quantity of evidence the police "decided" NOT to analyze.

Original article:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/04/25/amanda-knoxs-bloody-footprint.html

As I said, you can't raise eyebrows that you didn't find many of Amanda's fingerprints if the investigation was selective and not comprehensive. But it doesn't surprise me that Nadeau would write that. This has been her MO since the beginning.

 

[Grinder]

Wait a cotton pickin' minute. If we are buying the DNA evidence, there is the victim's DNA on the blade. 'Presumed haematic substance'. Why does that have no probative value?

Meredith's DNA on the knife has probative value but Amanda's doesn't because she used the knife after the murder in the flat.

Raf goes and kills Meredith on his own after giving Amanda a Xanax, comes home cleans the knife and then Amanda uses it. As I said earlier it is more interesting that Raf's DNA isn't there than Amanda's being there.

ETA - clearly the knife would have been cleaned completely including the handle so it would be quite a stretch to assert that the DNA (as Stef did) was left from the murder. There would have been blood on the handle as well as the blade and all would have been scrubbed down.

 

[Dan O.]

[IMGl]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=6976[/IMGl]

Also the detective insists that he smelled bleach 5 days later which would indicate they cleaned something well. Half an hour of the knife in a bleach bath would have destroyed the DNA on the knife. They didn't find any evidence of a bleach cleanup at Raf's or the cottage.

The investigators had bleach on their brains. I posted this image earlier. What I may not have posted is that they took this box with them. Of all the evidence they didn't collect, they took a box full of junk becaus it had a picture of a bleach bottle on the outside.

 

[Mary_H]

As I said, you can't raise eyebrows that you didn't find many of Amanda's fingerprints if the investigation was selective and not comprehensive. But it doesn't surprise me that Nadeau would write that. This has been her MO since the beginning.

This part of the article is favorable for Amanda and therefore to Barbie's credit. She didn't have to mention the other side of the story.

 

[Dan O.]

Did they? Did they really claim that? What would be the point in erasing her prints from her own room? Leave Raf's bloody footprint on the mat but erase prints from your own bedroom. Ummm.

Put the coffee down and finish swallowing before you lookup whose print it is that they found in Amanda's room. This is obviously the guilty person if they were there after the cleanup after the murder.

 

[Mary_H]

Meredith's DNA on the knife has probative value but Amanda's doesn't because she used the knife after the murder in the flat.

Raf goes and kills Meredith on his own after giving Amanda a Xanax, comes home cleans the knife and then Amanda uses it. As I said earlier it is more interesting that Raf's DNA isn't there than Amanda's being there.

ETA - clearly the knife would have been cleaned completely including the handle so it would be quite a stretch to assert that the DNA (as Stef did) was left from the murder. There would have been blood on the handle as well as the blade and all would have been scrubbed down.

They got the knife when they realized they didn't have any forensic evidence putting Amanda at the scene of the crime ("Doh!"). They would have said Raf's DNA was on it, too, if they hadn't had his shoes. When they found out the shoes were no good, they got the bra clasp.

 

[Grinder]

[IMGl]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=6976[/IMGl]



The investigators had bleach on their brains. I posted this image earlier. What I may not have posted is that they took this box with them. Of all the evidence they didn't collect, they took a box full of junk becaus it had a picture of a bleach bottle on the outside.

Is Steffy wearing her stilettos under those booties?

 

[Dan O.]

There is a long-ago article by Barbie N. in which she alludes to asking an investigator why they found no prints in Amanda's room, e.g., not on her guitar, not on her books, etc. The investigator alleged said something like, "We decide where it is important to look."

In other words, they did not really dust her room for prints.

If you look throu the December 18th photos you can see everywhere the did dust for prints. You can also see the numerous smudges and partials that they decided not to collect amongst the few clear prints which were circled and numbered.

 

[Dan O.]

You can't look at a clean bedroom and "time stamp" when it was cleaned. I can imagine Amanda cleaning her own bedroom on the afternoon of November 1st while Raffaele and Meredith were there or after Meredith left to meet Sophie.

Somewhere I saw a remark that a police officer had to admit that he had wiped down the bathroom sink. I didn't give it much thought but then I was looking again at a closeup of the pink bathroom sink and guess what: it looks like it had been wiped down after it had been sprayed.

 

[Antony]

You should stard doing your homework, instead of falsely claiming that I didn't cite things or asking for more, while spouting prejudice and not doing any honest reseach on your part; you may just start reading the newspaper article that I linked yesterday, just to start.

It's a mystery why you think an article about stolen bicycles would provide anything relevant to this case. Your posts contain more arrogance than information; clearly they are aimed more at misleading the casual reader than engaging in any meaningful debate.

You still haven't clarified how Stefanoni's testimony showed that the bra clasp couldn't have been dried. If she really testified that, then she was lying because it's a simple matter to dry clothes without any special techniques or equipment; all of us can do it in our homes without any difficulty at all.

Neither have you explained how the Supreme Court's review of "legitimacy" allows it to revisit the evidence (let alone make up facts as it has done here). Exactly how does the SC's judgement, detailed in the recently-issued motivation document, conform with Italian and international law?

 

[acbytesla]

Somewhere I saw a remark that a police officer had to admit that he had wiped down the bathroom sink. I didn't give it much thought but then I was looking again at a closeup of the pink bathroom sink and guess what: it looks like it had been wiped down after it had been sprayed.

I guess I have a real aversion to assigning too much or any value to what you don't find. Investigation or Prosecution through intuition is not a good idea.

I look at the crime scene and say what was found? the fact that they didn't find Amanda or Raffael's fingerprints in Meredith's bedroom doesn't prove that Amanda and Raffale weren't there, but there has to be positive evidence of their involvement which there isn't.

 

[Dan O.]

Science schmience! I've heard different numbers with household bleach but on return from the "cleanup" (so cleaning was on their minds) they could have finished the washing (without leaving any DNA in the flat) and then laid the knife in a pan of bleach for hours if they wanted to. There would be no reason to worry about it being there until after Meredith was found.

A word of caution: Don't try this at home with your MOM's cutlery. Bleach is a strong oxidizer that will cause rust pits in stainless steal. If you happen to have an oven handy, just leave the knife in there while you bake a pizza. I wonder what temperature the handles on the cheap knives melt at.

 

[acbytesla]

A word of caution: Don't try this at home with your MOM's cutlery. Bleach is a strong oxidizer that will cause rust pits in stainless steal. If you happen to have an oven handy, just leave the knife in there while you bake a pizza. I wonder what temperature the handles on the cheap knives melt at.

Yea, just imagine you murdered someone and you brought the murder weapon and put it back in the drawer from where it came? Seriously?... But let's say, you're a sicko and you liked the idea of keeping a souvenir of your first kill. Still, you've had days to clean the knife. You know the cops are asking you questions. Would you really not thoroughly clean the only connection between you and the crime scene? Especially since you supposedly cleaned the crime scene? You'd leave the only thing that could convict you uncleaned? Seriously?

I smell bull feces!!!!!

 

[Grinder]

Yea, just imagine you murdered someone and you brought the murder weapon and put it back in the drawer from where it came? Seriously?... But let's say, you're a sicko and you liked the idea of keeping a souvenir of your first kill. Still, you've had days to clean the knife. You know the cops are asking you questions. Would you really not thoroughly clean the only connection between you and the crime scene? Especially since you supposedly cleaned the crime scene? You'd leave the only thing that could convict you uncleaned? Seriously?

I smell bull feces!!!!!

I think keeping the knife after cleaning is less idiotic than keeping a gun used in a crime but people do that all the time. Yes, guns cost money but if it was fired during a crime that adds 5 years here (probably is cause for a reduced sentence you know where) yet people keep them.

Not only was there an inventory of the knives at the rental flat but getting rid of things isn't that easy (unless you took a trip to Gubbio) in town and one would surely think it would be found. Where are those darn keys anyway (Hint: Germany).

 

[acbytesla]

I think keeping the knife after cleaning is less idiotic than keeping a gun used in a crime but people do that all the time. Yes, guns cost money but if it was fired during a crime that adds 5 years here (probably is cause for a reduced sentence you know where) yet people keep them.

Not only was there an inventory of the knives at the rental flat but getting rid of things isn't that easy (unless you took a trip to Gubbio) in town and one would surely think it would be found. Where are those darn keys anyway (Hint: Germany).

I agree with you, even though I can't imagine Amanda bringing the knife along without some kind of premeditation involved.

But I can't see her/him not washing the knife. Throw it in the sink with soap and hot water with your other dishes or run it through the dishwasher and the DNA is gone!!!! Even though I don't think Raffaele's flat has a dishwasher, but that is the point. Not much to make sure the DNA is gone...gone gone. They cleaned the crime scene, but they don't clean the knife even though they would have had a full week to do it? Yeaaaaa, right. Amanda's this clever manipulative master mind and she doesn't have the good sense to thoroughly wash the murder weapon??? Even though they had 7 days to do it??

Sure...and I got some property in the Mojave desert to sell.

 

[Grinder]

I agree with you, even though I can't imagine Amanda bringing the knife along without some kind of premeditation involved.

But I can't see her/him not washing the knife. Throw it in the sink with soap and hot water with your other dishes or run it through the dishwasher and the DNA is gone!!!! Even though I don't think Raffaele's flat has a dishwasher, but that is the point. Not much to make sure the DNA is gone...gone gone. They cleaned the crime scene, but they don't clean the knife even though they would have had a full week to do it? Yeaaaaa, right. Amanda's this clever manipulative master mind and she doesn't have the good sense to thoroughly wash the murder weapon??? Even though they had 7 days to do it??

Sure...and I got some property in the Mojave desert to sell.

They only had 4 days but who's counting. The point isn't whether she brought the knife but would it be bizarre for them to keep the knife had they used it. I don't think the argument they would never keep the knife has weight.

They missed the tiny piece caught in the crevice is the story, but had they soaked the knife in bleach for a few minutes the DNA wouldn't be found.

 

[Dan O.]

I think keeping the knife after cleaning is less idiotic than keeping a gun used in a crime but people do that all the time. Yes, guns cost money but if it was fired during a crime that adds 5 years here (probably is cause for a reduced sentence you know where) yet people keep them.

Has anyone produced a comperable case of that hapening? By compable, it needs a suspect that is close to the victim such as a room mate or ex spouse who would therefore be a natural suspect, where the suspect denies involvement in the crime and where the murder weapon is found where it is expected to be.

Cases from the movies do not count.

 

[acbytesla]

They only had 4 days but who's counting. The point isn't whether she brought the knife but would it be bizarre for them to keep the knife had they used it. I don't think the argument they would never keep the knife has weight.

They missed the tiny piece caught in the crevice is the story, but had they soaked the knife in bleach for a few minutes the DNA wouldn't be found.

That is the story the Italians are telling, but it's just silly and absurd. They really wouldn't have had to soak it in bleach to get rid of the DNA. I'm guessing plain old hot soapy water would do the trick. What do you think Dan?? Chris??

 

[Dan O.]

That is the story the Italians are telling, but it's just silly and absurd. They really wouldn't have had to soak it in bleach to get rid of the DNA. I'm guessing plain old hot soapy water would do the trick. What do you think Dan?? Chris??

Why am I called when it comes to destruction of evidence of a crime? Who do you think I am, The Wolf?!

Hot soapy water is used in DNA extraction to break down the cell walls. Heat degrades DNA over time but one technique for difficult extractions is to boil the sample in water or other solvents for several minutes. It seams a combined approach would be most suitable. Hot soapy water to remove the majority of biological material followed by a good wipe down with bleach then baked until done.
.
But all of that only cleans the surface. The problem with keeping the knife is the crack where the handle meets the blade. Even on a bonded knife of this type there will be a crack. The smaller the crack the worse it will be because when the blood just touches this crack it will be sucked in faster than a guilter sucking up to Mignini. No amount of cleaning can access this blood once it gets inside. Baking might degrade the DNA but it won't destroy the evidence that there was blood.

(part 2)
No crime lab is going to have any compunction to opening a suspect knife to find the evidence. Just ask Raffaele what happened to his flick knives. The only reason the prosecution didn't open this double DNA knife is because they already knew for a fact that it was not the murder weapon.

Because of the likelihood of hidden blood evidence inside the knife, you need to dispose of it to disassociate that evidence from yourself and the crime. There is a trade off with the distance you transport it. The closer it is to the crime scene the more likely it is to be discovered. But the further you carry it, the more likely you are to be discovered carrying it. Rudy could transport his pocket knife to Germany because it would have been a knife he normally carried and he had time before the authorities linked him to the crime to dispose of it. If however he were seen carrying a huge kitchen knife, that might a have been a problem.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

osmotic shock

That is the story the Italians are telling, but it's just silly and absurd. They really wouldn't have had to soak it in bleach to get rid of the DNA. I'm guessing plain old hot soapy water would do the trick. What do you think Dan?? Chris??

I think that any cells would have been lysed by the combination of osmotic shock and detergent, which dissolves cell membranes. Once DNA is free of the cell, it is more prone to degradation from nucleases. I have not seen any studies that used soap or detergent, but I do know from personal experience that it is easy to break open red blood cells. Bleach is a sure thing for destroying DNA, however. BTW Osmotic Shock would be a good name for a blog about this case...