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Merged Freefall is not evidence for Controlled Demolition

What natural cause could have made those 8 storeys of perimeter columns fail together?

Internal collapse preceding the exterior collapse, leading to overload of the exterior columns that propagated during the initial < freefall period and before the main upper structure hit the deck, which led to the final < freefall period.

You know, this is a real problem for your CD theory as it's now you that needs to explain the initial < freefall period. Nobody is holding their breath, btw.



Oh, and if you don't want a 'debris duel' don't post photos that you don't understand in order to make erroneous points. But if you do at least have the decency to admit your mistake.
 
Internal collapse preceding the exterior collapse, leading to overload of the exterior columns that propagated during the initial < freefall period and before the main upper structure hit the deck, which led to the final < freefall period.

You know, this is a real problem for your CD theory as it's now you that needs to explain the initial < freefall period. Nobody is holding their breath, btw.

[qimg]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/sap-guy/NISTgraph2.jpg[/qimg]

Oh, and if you don't want a 'debris duel' don't post photos that you don't understand in order to make erroneous points. But if you do at least have the decency to admit your mistake.

And his point is a dodge anyway, why shouldn't they all fail together if they were all built the same and all being forced down by the same loaded moment frame. If he wants to argue that more, he needs to bring up another thread, since he appears unable to contest the OP of this one without a Gish gallop.
 
The free fall acceleration and inside/outside footprint are vague points that aren't dependent upon whether the building's were brought down with explosives or because somebody decided to slam a jet into one, or if one building collapsed onto another, or if one burned for several hours. The only thing that's relevant to the engineer is the "mechanism" that initiated it.

A building's structural frame is designed to act as a system, and if that system fails for any reason the building falls. Where the debris lands and the "speed" of failure all depend on the stability of the structural system... the only way "controlled demolition" gets "proven" is if individuals like MM can prove that the initiator was an explosive rig, and if that "rig" was "designed" to do things a certain way (hence the word "controlled") which "freefall" and "inside footprint" do not answer. They only connect if, and only IF the use of "explosives" is shown, and IF there was an intent to create a certain effect, to be a valid theory first... it doesn't work in reverse.
 
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The free fall acceleration and inside/outside footprint are vague points that aren't dependent upon whether the building's were brought down with explosives or because somebody decided to slam a jet into one, or if one building collapsed onto another, or if one burned for several hours. The only thing that's relevant to the engineer is the "mechanism" that initiated it.

A building's structural frame is designed to act as a system, and if that system fails for any reason the building falls. Where the debris lands and the "speed" of failure all depend on the stability of the structural system... the only way "controlled demolition" gets "proven" is if individuals like MM can prove that the initiator was an explosive rig, and if that "rig" was "designed" to do things a certain way (hence the word "controlled") which "freefall" and "inside footprint" do not answer. They only connect if, and only IF the use of "explosives" is shown, and IF there was an intent to create a certain effect, to be a valid theory first... it doesn't work in reverse.

In other words, they're not just putting the cart before the horse, they can't even be sure there's a horse in the first place.
 
You claim to work in a position that would require accurate visual analysis (ie reading a waveform, recognising an unwanted jump-cut, etc.). Even a cursory examination of the two images you provided shows that WTC7 didn't retain "amazing vertical stability". A quick look at the angle of the roofline between the left corner and the centre block shows the angle increasing. Since this would've been recorded by a camera on the long end of zoom (if not at full zoom), we can rule out an optical illusion created by a lens at wide angle.

This leaves 3 possibilities in my book (there's probably more but I'm limiting this to my experience and judgment as an editor [that plus I really haven't the time/inclination to chase truthers down the WTC7 rabbit hole]):

1. The left corner of the building is descending at a slower rate than the centre section of the building thus increasing the angle of the roofline between the left corner of the building and the centre section

2. Both sections are descending at the same rate but the left corner is pivoting towards the camera thus increasing the angle of the roofline between the left corner of the building and the centre section

3. Both sections are descending at the same rate but the centre section is pivoting away the camera thus increasing the angle of the roofline between the left corner of the building and the centre section

To use an analogy you should be familiar with, imagine you're using the joystick on an Abekas A51 to adjust an image. The X axis is left-right, the Y axis is the vertical axis and the Z is the zoom (or in this case closer-to or further-away from the camera). So in instance #1, there's a change in ∆Y, that is to say, there's a change in relative heights between the left corner and the centre section. In instances #2 & #3, there's a change in ∆Z with either the left corner coming closer to the camera relative to the centre section or else the centre section receeding.

In any case, it can't with any honesty be said that the left corner and the centre section stay in "amazing vertical stability" because that conclusion can't be exclusively drawn from the data you're providing.

HTH
Fitz

Bumping for MirageMemories. What say you?

Fitz
 
I have no interest in playing dueling debris piles.



The prime suspect for the 47-story WTC7 collapsing at FFA, or close, is CD.
In the fevered dreams of truthers such as yourself MM.


Un-fought office furnishing's fires are an extremely poor candidate for such a smoothly executed collapse.

Can you rationally explain how natural causes allowed WTC7 to have such a sophisticated high speed collapse.

MM

You, and AE911T have yet to prove that the fire damage scenario is "an extremely poor candidate" and have done even less to support a scenario of controlled demolition.
So one then arrives at the suspicion that these conclusions by you and others must be driven mainly, solely in fact, by a political world view that assumes grandiose, complicated, conspiracies by unnamed powerful cadres who control the world from shadows.

As to your last question, yes, in fact there has been a well documented engineering study done that illustrates it farily well.
 
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img51/9024/cxw5.png[/qimg]
WTC7 north side showing ~8 storeys removed to permit FFA.

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img194/3379/3pp.png[/qimg]
One notes immediately that the graph showing the acceleration of wtc7' s final collapse bears little to no resemblance to what would occur if this fantastical scenario were to occur. Your fantasy diagram indicates that the upper portion of the building would fall AT g, through the 8 storey gap. THAT did not happen, not even close.
[Quote
Accepting a rigid box-like integrity for the WTC7 shell;

The collapse can be seen to be balanced (all sides failing at the same rate), and does not tilt until late in the collapse.

A delay in the failure of the west side perimeter columns, would have resulted in the east side leading the collapse (tilt to the left) topple.

A delay in the failure of the east side perimeter columns, would have resulted in the west side leading the collapse (tilt to the right) topple.

A delay in the failure of the south side perimeter columns, would have resulted in the north side leading the collapse (tilt forward) topple.

A delay in the failure of the north side perimeter columns, would have resulted in the south side leading the collapse (tilt backward) topple.

As the collapse video shows, WTC7 did not topple or tilt during FFA.

What natural cause could have made those 8 storeys of perimeter columns fail together?

MM

Now let's examine what we can plainly see occurred, shall we?

An interior failure becomes obvious as a portion of roof, near its longitudinal center line, approximately in the location of col 79, collapses. This failure is followed by the opening growing larger and along the centerline of the roof taking much of the roof structures into the building. This is obviously the first visible gross aspect of collapse. As this occurs a 'kink' develops on the north face in line with the location of that first rooftop failure and the portions of the building east and west of that kink tilt towards each other the structure fails. It is quite obvious that the structure is now doomed to total collapse. All visible levels of the structure have been affected at this time.

We could stop right there. The building is doomed, there is no requirement to remove all the vertical support over eight lower storeys in order to effect total collapse.

What else do we know? We know that the south side suffered significant loss of perimeter support due to impact from wtc1 debris. We also know that the north side of the structure includes special trusses to support the mass of the upper 40 storeys above the original Con-ed building. These trusses are supported at the south and north ends by their major columns. There are smaller columns along the length of each of these trusses as well.

Now we envision, since you asked, what is happening inside.
The failures visible along the the centerline collapse at the roof shows that there was a progressive collapse, most likely caused by heavy debris coming down 47 storeys and damaging the core columns.
With loss of core columns the mass south of the core would transfer to the remaking columns of the south, the most significant of which are at the perimeter. However a number of those perimeter columns are damaged or missing and in fact the south west portion had been observed to be bulgin/leaning to the south early on in the day. It is now obvious that the south west portion of the building must collapse to the south.
The north perimeter columns are supporting the south ends of the cantilever trusses. With their progressive failure those trusses tilt down at their south end. This causes a force on the remaining columns that pushes the upper ends of remaining columns, to the north. The further they tilt the less they can offer in the way of vertical load bearing capability and they fail.
As per the OP the already moving south ends of the north portion of the structure are pulling down on the north perimeter. This contributes to the acceleration of the north face and at the point when the columns have tilted beyond being able to offer vertical support, the entire north face collapses.

The collapse, since it is led by a core collapse, is not a topple to the south with the south perimeter base as its fulcrum. The means the final disposition of the debris does not extend south by a distance equal to the height of the building.

Further detail also would account for the twisting of the eastern portion of the building that had it end up dealing a devastating impact to the Fitterman building to the NE. However no truther ever seems at all interested in that.

Clearer now?
 
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Damn tablet screen.

I see I made some errors in typing out post 191. I will endeavour to correct them with a repost later today.


For eg:
"north perimeter columns are supporting the south ends of the cantilever trusses."

Should be:
north core columns are supporting the south ends of the cantilever trusses.
 
cxw5.png

WTC7 north side showing ~8 storeys removed to permit FFA.


One notes immediately that the graph showing the acceleration of wtc7' s final collapse bears little to no resemblance to what would occur if this fantastical scenario were to occur. Your fantasy diagram indicates that the upper portion of the building would fall AT g, through the 8 storey gap. THAT did not happen, not even close

Now let's examine what we can plainly see occurred, shall we?

An interior failure becomes obvious as a portion of roof, near its longitudinal center line, approximately in the location of col 79, collapses. This failure is followed by the opening growing larger and along the centerline of the roof taking much of the roof structures into the building. This is obviously the first visible gross aspect of collapse. As this occurs a 'kink' develops on the north face, in line with the location of that first rooftop failure, and the portions of the building east and west of that kink tilt towards each other. It is quite obvious that the structure is now doomed to total collapse. All visible levels of the structure have been affected at this time, as evidenced by the kink and the fact that all visible portions of the north side are tilting inwards towards that kink, AND the fact of the loss of the center of the structure evidenced by the collapse of roof structures. Picture it! Little or no support at the core and all visible north portions bowing towards that kink. While no FFA has yet to occur its is fairly obvious that the entire building is about to collapse.

We could stop right there. The building is doomed, there is no requirement to remove all the vertical support over eight lower storeys in order to effect total collapse.

What else do we know? We know that the south side suffered significant loss of perimeter support due to impact from wtc1 debris. We also know that the north side of the structure includes special trusses to support the mass of the upper 40 storeys above the original Con-ed building. These trusses are supported at the south and north ends by their major columns. There are smaller columns along the length of each of these trusses as well.

Now we envision, since you asked, what is happening inside.
The failures visible along the the centerline collapse at the roof shows that there was a progressive collapse, most likely caused by heavy debris coming down 47 storeys and damaging the core columns.
With loss of core columns the mass south of the core would transfer to the remaining columns of the south, the most significant of which are at the perimeter. However a number of those perimeter columns are damaged or missing and in fact the south west portion had been observed to be bulging/leaning to the south early on in the day. It is now obvious that the south west portion of the building must collapse to the south.
The north core columns are supporting the south ends of the cantilever trusses. With their progressive failure those trusses tilt down at their south end. This causes a force on the remaining columns that pushes the upper ends of remaining columns, to the north. The further they tilt the less they can offer in the way of vertical load bearing capability and they fail.
As per the OP the already moving south ends of the north portion of the structure are pulling down on the north perimeter. This contributes to the acceleration of the north face and at the point when the columns under the cantilever trusses have tilted beyond being able to offer vertical support, the entire north face collapses.

The collapse, since it is led by a core collapse, is not a topple to the south with the south perimeter base as its fulcrum. The means the final disposition of the debris does not extend south by a distance equal to the height of the building.

Further detail also would account for the twisting of the eastern portion of the building that had it end up dealing a devastating impact to the Fitterman building to the NE. However no truther ever seems at all interested in that.

Clearer now?
 
Right.

You make a statement, are then shown it to be completely wrong, and now you don't want to play anymore.

I notice you do that quite often.

:D

It seems to me he brought the idea that the debris pile indicates something relevant to the thread topic and now states he is no longer interested in discussing it.
 
"The failures visible along the the centerline collapse at the roof shows that there was a progressive collapse, most likely caused by heavy debris coming down 47 storeys and damaging the core columns."

Now that's a leap.

The collapse of WTC7 displayed an implosion profile which well matched the industry standard.

Of course a commercially planned CD would pre-rig the building (remove windows etc.) to minimize collateral damage.

An implosion collapse as observed with WTC7 required the near instantaneous removal of the lower core and perimeter columns for at least 8 floors.

utw6.jpg


It is far from obvious that a failure of column 79 is going to propagate a core destroying debris shower.

Whatever happened inside WTC7 from the time of the east penthouse collapse to it dropping out of view several seconds later, the north face revealed very little. This is quite amazing considering 47 floors all securely attached to core columns and perimeter columns.

xvuo.jpg


The kink is forming as global collapse begins. There is noticeable window breakage that looks related to column 79.

Somehow the internal crushing forces were not visibly pulling the perimeter columns in, nor dramatically fracturing the hundreds of window frames.

Why do all 4 sides drop in unison?

You want me to accept that the WTC7 external shell went from standing to a balanced drop for over 8 storeys, because 8 storeys of core and perimeter columns failed equally and in unison?

By human engineering. Yes.

By roaming office furnishing's fires. No.

MM
 
Further detail also would account for the twisting of the eastern portion of the building that had it end up dealing a devastating impact to the Fitterman building to the NE. However no truther ever seems at all interested in that.

The collapse of WTC7 displayed an implosion profile which well matched the industry standard.

Devastating damage to a nearby building well matches the industry standard?
 
Now that's a leap.

The collapse of WTC7 displayed an implosion profile which well matched the industry standard.
Barring the whole "destruction of surrounding buildings and being manifestly uncontrolled and the building being on fire at the time and experimental charges being planted in secret in a heavily trafficked building", yes. Oh, and the complete lack of any explosions consistent with any known conventional demo charge.

Of course a commercially planned CD would pre-rig the building (remove windows etc.) to minimize collateral damage. ...
Did...did you just pre-emptively backpedal?

Part of the rigging of the building is to minimize collateral, yes. Part of it is to ensure a controllable collapse.

What I like about this is the claim that you've invalidated your own argument. You said it matched a standard CD, then said that it differed in a critical area from a standard CD.
 
Now that's a leap.
It is quite a leap to assume any of your post either addresses the part of mine that you quoted or indeed any other part of my post.

The kink shows the east and west portions leaning towards that kink well before an acceleration that is at free fall yet this fact also demonstrates that the building is already doomed to complete failure before your fantastical eight storey column removal.

The collapse of WTC7 displayed an implosion profile which well matched the industry standard.
No it matches what one would expect with loss of core capacity following loss of a major column in a structure with long span open floor design erected over an existing, much lower, structure. Did the north face collapse to the south? Yes it did, it collapsed towards the failed core, Did the south part fail to the south? Yes, it collapsed towards the significantly damaged south perimeter
Of course a commercially planned CD would pre-rig the building (remove windows etc.) to minimize collateral damage.

An implosion collapse as observed with WTC7 required the near instantaneous removal of the lower core and perimeter columns for at least 8 floors.
You keep saying that but you seem to be hoping that doing so will make it so.
It won't. In fact the topic is whether or not FFA equals CD. However its shown that your fantastical eight storey column removal would result in an eight storey acceleration profile completely dissimilar to that which describes the fall of wtc7.
You choose to ignore that fact.
In addition, you choose to ignore the fact that the entire building is doomed as soon as we see the eastern and western portions tilting towards the kink while the core is obviously severely damaged or destroyed.

It is far from obvious that a failure of column 79 is going to propagate a core destroying debris shower.

Whatever happened inside WTC7 from the time of the east penthouse collapse to it dropping out of view several seconds later, the north face revealed very little. This is quite amazing considering 47 floors all securely attached to core columns and perimeter columns.
If the falling debris, air handling/air conditioning units and other dense material, is punching though floors for 40 floors until it reaches the core at the level of those cantilever trusses it would indeed show little effect on the windows.
If otoh there were column destroying explosives severing multiple columns, dozens of them, one would expect that the combined pressure effects would have shattered windows over much of the north face. How is it you can be amazed that falling debris a hundred feet from a windowed face does not twist windows to breaking point but be so cavalier ad to expect that dozens of simultaneous explosions won't cause vibrations that shatter windows?

The kink is forming as global collapse begins. There is noticeable window breakage that looks related to column 79.
Yes, the kink, occurring well before the entire facade reaches FFA, demonstrates that at this point the building is doomed. Yes despite a supposed explosion massive enough to sever col 79 only windows long the greatest line of deformation have broken.Despite dozens of following explosions few other windows break as the entire north face begins moving.
Somehow the internal crushing forces were not visibly pulling the perimeter columns in, nor dramatically fracturing the hundreds of window frames.
I've seen photos of buildings that have toppled due to earthquakes yet have windows still intact. No explosives required. In this case the windows were part of a frame that was coming down due to loss at the level of the cantilever trusses. There's your eighth storey failure.
Why do all 4 sides drop in unison?
Did they? Iirc, femr2 showed a few delays in that regard. Certainly the parts nearer the kink began moving before the perimeters, otherwise there'd have been no kink. However if the cause of failure which had the east,west and north perimeters falling is directly related to the failure of col 79, then we cannot expect east and west to react highly differently. Nor can we expect that the south side, already significantly damaged, to react grossly different.
You are not making a case foe CD, MM.

You want me to accept that the WTC7 external shell went from standing to a balanced drop for over 8 storeys, because 8 storeys of core and perimeter columns failed equally and in unison?
You misrepresent it as in unison. Obviously there was a separate initial column failure, col 79, followed quickly but sequentially by other, core column, failures. There is also a sequence to the moving of the north face, first the movement towards the kink, visible even up to the roofline, a distortion that broke few windows. Only after this does the north face sections begin moving downward, and quite evidently tilting southwards(that is where the west side, north portion ended up). Moving down won't break windows and with the entire plane falling south there's little to cause window breakage. Certainly no more than the initial kink would have caused.
By human engineering. Yes.

By roaming office furnishing's fires. No.

MM
Neither you or anyone else, has come up with a human engineered controlled demolition scenario that satisfies all the criteria that you say shows it was not the result of fire induced structural failure. When will we expect a CD scenario detailing how col 79 was severed first, then the progressive collapse of rooftop structures was effected, then further column failures were made to occur such as to cause the north face to experience an acceleration profile as observed for wtc7?
You seem to think that making unsubstantiated declarative statements is enough to first disprove a fire initiated progressive collapse, and second proves a controlled demolition.
 
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