Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

Anglo perhaps you could expand on this whistle-blower letter a bit. It is very hard to read as is.

Gee, thanks Grinder

I know no more than what I already said. The idea of the letter seems to be discredit claims about Stefanoni's lab's excellent record re: non-contamination and so forth and there is some shocking stuff. Take paragraph 7

7. The Scientific Police of the periphery is equipped with standard equipment. Just think of the fridge / freezers in use: those food! [A reference to the storage of samples in the freezer in the apartment, presumably] The same protective equipment and safety are not bought for lack of funds. The suits? They are used only when there are cameras. Masks and headphones? You wear only if there are experts and lawyers! The gloves? We must not waste them and the recommendations are to use them until they break!

Or 14

14.Il biological sampling is always completely destroyed, without ensuring the repeatability of the investigation, most of the time as possible, as is the case in all civilized countries of the world.

What's interesting is the letter's appearance now, a year and half after it was sent. Has it just come to the Sollecitos' notice or have they elected to publish it now, signalling a new strategy designed to paint the prosecution science as grossly incompetent or worse? Why would there be someone in Stefanoni's lab wanting to discredit the work done there? This surely goes on the same pile as Napoleone's suspension for abusing her office to access information about her ex.

ETA if only 'the gloves we must not waste them' part is true doesn't that shatter the whole case? One would expect a major enquiry to result from this exposure and perhaps a review of all the cases handled by that lab.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
So you are permitted to break into commercial properties and steal laptops in Italy without getting arrested?

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

Moreover, you should know police don't have a power of arresting in Italy; they can only order 'informal' arrest (police arrest, or fermo), which would expire after 48 hours. You need a prosecutor and an invesigating judge to issue a decree of arrest and custody.

 

[acbytesla]

I would feel great. The same as a doctor would feel fixing Hitler's ruptured appendix. And no, it's not the flip side of anything. Not in my opinion anyway. If an innocent person goes to prison it may well be the system failed but if a guilty person goes free the system has worked. The moment defence lawyers stop doing their job is the time to be afraid that it will be your or your friend's turn next to be framed or wrongfully convicted due to some botch-up at the lab.

I don't think I would feel that way. I know I would be feeling great about my own personal skill but I would be troubled about the end result. Dirty, like I had sold my soul. I do believe that it is better for the system to acquit a guilty person than to convict an innocent one, but I wouldn't be pleased about my part in putting a violent criminal back out in society.

 

[acbytesla]

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

UNBELIEVABLE!! In the US, you would be arrested for breaking and entering and suspicion of burglary and receiving stolen goods.

 

[Grinder]

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

Moreover, you should know police don't have a power of arresting in Italy; they can only order 'informal' arrest (police arrest, or fermo), which would expire after 48 hours. You need a prosecutor and an invesigating judge to issue a decree of arrest and custody.

Thanks for giving us the skinny on Italian law.

It seems odd to me that a man caught after breaking into a nursery, stealing a knife and money in flagrante wouldn't be fermo for those 48 hours. I think most modern legal systems would view a man that is found in a facility for small children with a knife, much less the other stolen items from the facility and other locations, as potentially dangerous.

Would the ILE arrest a foreigner for what Rudi did or not?

 

[anglolawyer]

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

UNBELIEVABLE!! In the US, you would be arrested for breaking and entering and suspicion of burglary and receiving stolen goods.

Of course, Mach plays it down. I think I identified upthread about 11 offences which were revealed when Rudy was arrested in the school. They included arson and aggravated (meaning 'armed') burglary (or their Italian equivalents) and would normally result in an immediate prison term here. A modicum of investigation is all that was required but we have never heard a scrap about it. Any finger prints taken at the lawyer's office? Did they show the gold watch to the old lady whose cat got fried and who lived right above Rudy's apartment and had a gold watch stolen? Were they alarmed by this night time burglar being armed with a stolen knife?

These guys despatch a squad car with two cops in it to return a couple of mobile phones but aren't interested in solving a mini-crime spree when the hoodlum falls into their hands like a ripe orange? Sure.

 

[Grinder]

I don't think I would feel that way. I know I would be feeling great about my own personal skill but I would be troubled about the end result. Dirty, like I had sold my soul. I do believe that it is better for the system to acquit a guilty person than to convict an innocent one, but I wouldn't be pleased about my part in putting a violent criminal back out in society.

And you didn't become an attorney. How would you feel if you were a doctor and missed a diagnosis? How about an engineer that had a building collapse because a calculation error?

People are made differently.

 

[Grinder]

Of course, Mach plays it down. I think I identified upthread about 11 offences which were revealed when Rudy was arrested in the school. They included arson and aggravated (meaning 'armed') burglary (or their Italian equivalents) and would normally result in an immediate prison term here. A modicum of investigation is all that was required but we have never heard a scrap about it. Any finger prints taken at the lawyer's office? Did they show the gold watch to the old lady whose cat got fried and who lived right above Rudy's apartment and had a gold watch stolen? Were they alarmed by this night time burglar being armed with a stolen knife?

These guys despatch a squad car with two cops in it to return a couple of mobile phones but aren't interested in solving a mini-crime spree when the hoodlum falls into their hands like a ripe orange? Sure.

I would like better documentation on the neighbor lady and the fire etc. One of the most frustrating aspect of this case on the innocent side are things like Curatolo's three trials and this neighbor theft and fire.

If the latter can be fleshed out I would think it would be very powerful out of court for sure and maybe even in court if allowed.

 

[anglolawyer]

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

Moreover, you should know police don't have a power of arresting in Italy; they can only order 'informal' arrest (police arrest, or fermo), which would expire after 48 hours. You need a prosecutor and an invesigating judge to issue a decree of arrest and custody.

That's the same here, more or less. Who is arguing the police can arrest and detain without limit. 48 hours fermo would have been fine. Then either charge or release on police bail (or its equivalent) pending enquiries. I don't know why these cases weren't followed up after Rudy was arrested for the murder frankly. Well, of course, I do know very well, but the point is this recent spate of criminal activity could have had useful probative value providing a context for Guede's conduct. How come Mignini was so uninterested?

 

[anglolawyer]

I would like better documentation on the neighbor lady and the fire etc. One of the most frustrating aspect of this case on the innocent side are things like Curatolo's three trials and this neighbor theft and fire.

If the latter can be fleshed out I would think it would be very powerful out of court for sure and maybe even in court if allowed.

My source is Burleigh. She might have made it up for all I know but it does seem a rather fanciful thing to invent. I shall ask her her source and, if she is good enough to reply, I'll tell you what she says.

 

[Bill Williams]

That's the same here, more or less. Who is arguing the police can arrest and detain without limit. 48 hours fermo would have been fine. Then either charge or release on police bail (or its equivalent) pending enquiries. I don't know why these cases weren't followed up after Rudy was arrested for the murder frankly. Well, of course, I do know very well, but the point is this recent spate of criminal activity could have had useful probative value providing a context for Guede's conduct. How come Mignini was so uninterested?

Game, set, and match Andy Murray AngloLawyer. The fact that they are minimizing Guede's pre-murder activities says everything. If they were really confident they had the goods on Raffaele and Amanda, they would have thrown the book at Rudy on his pre-crime spree, too. I mean, why not?

That's the question, why not? Why is Machiavelli even trying to minimize this?

Strangely, the ILE and ISC seems to be looking at things this way too. It's just that folk like Machiavelli do not appreciate just how far this embarrassment to him and all around him extends.

Good on him. So far Machiavelli is one of those kids who hands Mr. Murray a towel, only to have it thrown back at him all sweaty. And the kid does it with a smile on his/her face and a snap in their step as their well trained countenance shows, thinking they are at the pinnacle of achievement!

Hey, not a bad metaphor for Machiavelli!

 

[Bill Williams]

Has anybody heard about the whistle blower letter that showed up on Raffaele's facebook page? This is said to have been sent to Conti and Vechiotti in October 2011 from someone in Stefanoni's lab. Rose has google translated it. Could use a proper translation. Here it is as posted at IIP earlier:


I wonder whether there will be more of these. I do happen to believe in the mega-conspiracy and it is a prediction of my theory that consciences will be pricked and/or that knaves will fall out even though it may take as long as it did for the secret plan to discredit the family of Stephen Laurence to emerge in the UK (20 years)

It seems that the Italian justice system does not look kindly on underlings who turn on their overlords. Unless..... a momentum can be built up. Maybe if that police-person will come forward, the one who told Raffaele a day before that he desperately needed a lawyer....

That sort of thing. This could very well come upwrapped. My fantasy, though.

 

[anglolawyer]

Game, set, and match Andy Murray AngloLawyer. The fact that they are minimizing Guede's pre-murder activities says everything. If they were really confident they had the goods on Raffaele and Amanda, they would have thrown the book at Rudy on his pre-crime spree, too. I mean, why not?

That's the question, why not? Why is Machiavelli even trying to minimize this?

Strangely, the ILE and ISC seems to be looking at things this way too. It's just that folk like Machiavelli do not appreciate just how far this embarrassment to him and all around him extends.

Good on him. So far Machiavelli is one of those kids who hands Mr. Murray a towel, only to have it thrown back at him all sweaty. And the kid does it with a smile on his/her face and a snap in their step as their well trained countenance shows, thinking they are at the pinnacle of achievement!

Hey, not a bad metaphor for Machiavelli!

Not sure I quite get the towel metaphor there Bill but, while it may be trite to say so, the leeway the PGPs, ILE et al give Rudy contrasts remarkably with how every little thing is seized upon to show Amanda and the other one as evil incarnate, including that parking violation or whatever it was back in Seattle. It's very suspicious that the Seattle police didn't put at least four detectives on that case, working round the clock until they cracked it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

Moreover, you should know police don't have a power of arresting in Italy; they can only order 'informal' arrest (police arrest, or fermo), which would expire after 48 hours. You need a prosecutor and an invesigating judge to issue a decree of arrest and custody.

Which side of the "cops/prosecution framed Knox and Sollecito" conspiracy are you on!!!!

 

[Bill Williams]

Not sure I quite get the towel metaphor there Bill but, while it may be trite to say so, the leeway the PGPs, ILE et al give Rudy contrasts remarkably with how every little thing is seized upon to show Amanda and the other one as evil incarnate, including that parking violation or whatever it was back in Seattle. It's very suspicious that the Seattle police didn't put at least four detectives on that case, working round the clock until they cracked it.

Machiavelli is on the left. Mignini is on the right.

 

[acbytesla]

And you didn't become an attorney. How would you feel if you were a doctor and missed a diagnosis? How about an engineer that had a building collapse because a calculation error?

People are made differently.

I'd feel horrible, but both of those would be mistakes. The other would be the result of my skill. Totally different ball of wax.

And yes people are made differently. Don't get me wrong, the world needs people to a degree with that kind of amorality.

 

[anglolawyer]

I'd feel horrible, but both of those would be mistakes. The other would be the result of my skill. Totally different ball of wax.

And yes people are made differently. Don't get me wrong, the world needs people to a degree with that kind of amorality.

What amorality? There is nothing whatever amoral about it. We have a legal system which has a presumption of innocence built into the criminal part of it and everything else follows from that. You are being unusually obtuse AC. In my experience, very few people who come into contact with the criminal 'underworld' seem to feel as you think you would feel. Prison officers, probation officers, cops, lawyers, judges, social workers all take these people in their stride, refrain from being unduly judgmental and just get on with their jobs. They are not amoral because of that, just professional.

 

[Dan O.]

Of course you can, unless you are caught in flagrante delicto.
But even in such event, in most case the state of arrest would actually last no longer than a few days.
Guede was not caught in flagrante while stealing a laptop, nor breaking into commercial facilities.
He was caught sleeping into a private place, just having a single piece of stolen good (laptop) of limited value. No way he could be arrested on that.

It's too bad Rudy can't afford to have paid supporters on his side. You know, someone that would know what information was already in the public domain so they wouldn't waist time and embarrass their client by trying to contradict what was already well known. An anonymous Internet poster might make the mistake of forgetting about the knife taken from the kitchen of the nursery or the cell phone found in his pack. A pro would not stumble on such trivia.

 

[Dan O.]

Would the ILE arrest a foreigner for what Rudi did or not?

I thought Rudy was a foreigner.

 

[acbytesla]

What amorality? There is nothing whatever amoral about it. We have a legal system which has a presumption of innocence built into the criminal part of it and everything else follows from that. You are being unusually obtuse AC. In my experience, very few people who come into contact with the criminal 'underworld' seem to feel as you think you would feel. Prison officers, probation officers, cops, lawyers, judges, social workers all take these people in their stride, refrain from being unduly judgmental and just get on with their jobs. They are not amoral because of that, just professional.

Please don't take offense anglo, but you're a lawyer. You don't think like a lay person. I agree that there is and should be a presumption of innocence built into the system. Maybe amoral is not the right word, but it is a different kind of morality.

Machiavelli practices and demonstrates it on this forum almost in every post.

The truth is sacrificed not for the greater good of society, but as a professional requirement. When a lawyer uses his skill to confuse, obfuscate and hide the truth, in my book that is not only amoral, it is immoral. And lawyers do that all the time. The goal is to win, not to achieve justice.

I know it's not that simple, so it seems a bit unfair. There is a lot more to consider I know. The right of every defendant to get a spirited and competent legal representation. The importance of keeping "the state and the system in check.

Lawyers are absolutely needed and just like rodents, vultures and bacteria, they play an important role.