Are You Spiritual?

[Navigator]

I like that. "Emotion" is a more neutral word, with even a slightly negative connotation, so it removes the positive bias surrounding "spiritual." It also conveys better the meaning that everyone has emotions, but being "emotional" means being affected by emotions more than average.

Imagine being asked, "Are you emotional?"

Would those who answer "yes" to "are you spiritual?" also answer "yes" to that? Would the answer "no, I'm not emotional" make you feel the same about a person as if he said, "no, I'm not spiritual?"

"Are you emotional?"

?

I know of this guy *Bob who was ditched for another guy by his then girlfriend.
The replaced guy and ex girlfriend were subsequently murdered by Bob and Bob now exists on death row waiting to be executed.

Because he couldn't control his emotions.

I really don't think 'emotion' is a good replacement for 'spiritual' on account that its effects are - rather than being neutral - often destructive elevators of stress and confusion...

(*Not his real name)

 

[JaysonR]

The nuts and bolts of what Arcade22 was stating is why I relate spirituality to emotion so directly; but the reason that I think we still need the word is because spirituality is a state of existing with interactions of chronic hyperbolic emotional input causing reverential conditioning over a given thing (which can be anything).

I suppose, if I was pressed, I would replace my earlier offer of "emotion" and state it more properly as "reverential".

So it would flow in a sentence, by replacement, as:
Are you reverential?

In place of:
Are you spiritual?


But ultimately; I don't think "spiritual" is very confusing.
When someone states the word, you can rather easily count on them to be referring to hyperbolic emotions revolving around reverential levels of value that imbue their life with emotional meaning through some form of conceived ontological relationship, however tenuous that ontology may be (e.g. even if it's that we are all star dust).

 

[Navigator]

When I read you Arcade 22 - and other aspects of Consciousness which embrace this kind of reasoning I - as an individual Entity of Consciousness think this:

"As Consciousness, if all sign and accompanying impulse and behavior in relation to wooism has to be eradicated from my being, I must with equal enthusiasm eradicate all sign and accompanying impulse and behavior in relation to woop-de-doism from my same said being"

Sure, although it wouldn't describe you as a "Consciousness".

It's just like most people find certain things sexually attractive or hot. Or a painting or car to be really pretty or good looking. I think people very rarely lack such an ability to automatically feel such emotions when looking at such stimuli (if it could be called such).

But when you look at how things really are in nature, it becomes apparent that what we find hot, pretty, good looking, aesthetically pleasing and so on has no special meaning outside of the brain. It's just a bunch of molecules. That pretty, androgynous youthful boy? Just a group of chemical processes.

You are confusing the brain to being some kind of mindful thing Arcade 22. It is not.
EVERY outside stimuli is given importance or not, by the existence of Consciousness - which is the true meaning of personal choice.
This includes your choice to think in whatever manner you chose to. It is NOT the brain in your skull which dictates to YOU, what you decide to think, or how you decide to choose based upon those thoughts.

YOU are not the mindless brain. You are Consciousness. Consciousness is NOT "It's just a bunch of molecules...Just a group of chemical processes."

It's not a "Consciousness" that's doing that, it's a part of brain associating the awe with special. The utility in doing that is because if we think things like a special place or special thing is, well special, we usually take greater care when we notice it or think about it.

Indeed. We must also take extreme great care when thinking about Consciousness, because it is indeed, very, very special, even if you do not think so at the moment.
Please, take some time to sincerely think about the extreme special-ness of the existence of Consciousness in this otherwise mindless universe and your part in that fact, and perhaps through that process develop thoughts as to what it is you might be able to personally achieve as ways of allowing the emotion of awe to inspire you as part of that Consciousness to nurturing that fact in the recognition of it as you, and as others.

That's seems a little far-fetched to be honest. The human brain didn't evolve so it could make us fly out into space because we view the earth as pretty, nor did it evolve so it could protect the earths environment and eco-systems. Although that could very well be the end result, it's no something pre-planned.

No - it was a mindless accident. It matters not. All that matters is that Consciousness exists and is evolving and will continue to evolve as long as the Universe exists, and potentially even beyond.
Do you understand this?
The human brain didn't evolve for ANY reason, any more than the Physical Universe exists for ANY reason. The reason came much later - even after the human brain.
The reason came with the advent of Consciousness and the reason is evolving too.

 

[JaysonR]

I'm going to respond to your post to Arcade22, Navigator;

EVERY outside stimuli is given importance or not, by the existence of Consciousness - which is the true meaning of personal choice.

Consciousness doesn't give importance; the limbic system delivers the imbuement of importance.
Every mammal has this governor.
We can actually observe this happening up to 6 to 7 seconds before you make a choice if we create an environment whereby the system of processing between two choices will involve two different regions of the neocortex.
Meaning, we can observe the subconscious neurology routing decision making traffic to conscious processing centers before you become aware of which decision you will be making.

Here's the PDF of this discovery:
http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/NatureNeuroScience_Soon_et_al.pdf

Here's a clip of a show where the host inquires the team on this matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=N6S9OidmNZM

This includes your choice to think in whatever manner you chose to. It is NOT the brain in your skull which dictates to YOU, what you decide to think, or how you decide to choose based upon those thoughts.

Not entirely true.
We do have neocortex and conscious control over what we think under normal conditions of cognitive assessment, but that is dependent on the brain being capable of providing that availability.

However, in cases such as subjective capgras syndrome, we can observe the brain directly determining what a person is capable of thinking.
Subjective capgras is an instance where a person is unable to accept that their reflection is them.
They recognize that the image is their face, but they lack any emotional stimuli to the facial recognition, and as a result reject the identity of the face as their own.
By consequence of not recognizing their own face, such individuals typically also end up rejecting the reality of existence itself; claiming to be in some fake world, or supernatural state of existence.

This happens because the amygdala stops signalling to the fusiform gyrus.

The individual's consciousness cannot think whatever it wants; it is reliant upon the condition of the brain to facilitate normal neurological processing and thinking.

YOU are not the mindless brain. You are Consciousness. Consciousness is NOT "It's just a bunch of molecules...Just a group of chemical processes."

In quantification, you are just a bunch of molecules; however, it is not just. Instead, it is that you are specifically an exact arrangement of molecules (and also possibly quantum states).

This doesn't mean that the brain is mindless, but it does mean that it is limited by the facilitation of the brain.
It is extremely easy to disrupt "you" by very little effort of impacting the brain.

A coin size cist in the right area can absolutely destroy everything you know about your reality; indeed, you can very easily stop being cognizant from such a cist if it develops in the right place.

So no, it's not just that we're bunches of molecules; it is that we are so specifically an arrangement of molecules in a very, very tenuous arrangement.

That said, thoughts do aid in developing and altering the neurology of the brain and it never stops altering.
The brain outlines the boundaries of consciousness and its potential, but consciousness has the ability to order the brain to different arrangements of infrastructure to support new and different boundaries.

That 6 to 7 seconds before you are aware of a choice that you are going to make where your subconscious is already in route to making the choice is augmented by reflective approval or disapproval.
In a simplified outline, if you disapprove of the result, then the subconscious routing of the information to the conscious selection of choice is altered to better appease your reflective conscious approval.

Reflection, then, is the consciousness' means of controlling and tailoring the subconsciousness.

Indeed. We must also take extreme great care when thinking about Consciousness, because it is indeed, very, very special, even if you do not think so at the moment.
Please, take some time to sincerely think about the extreme special-ness of the existence of Consciousness in this otherwise mindless universe and your part in that fact, and perhaps through that process develop thoughts as to what it is you might be able to personally achieve as ways of allowing the emotion of awe to inspire you as part of that Consciousness to nurturing that fact in the recognition of it as you, and as others.

Absolutely; the nature of our brain and the capacity for our manner of self aware consciousness, in all of the systemic manners in which it functions to accomplish the phenomenon, is for me what I imagine it must be like for Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson when he looks at the cosmos.

But that amazing accomplishment doesn't mean that consciousness is transcendent to the brain.

If anything, the amazement comes from just how tenuous consciousness is in regards to how easy it is to disrupt by affecting the brain.

No - it was a mindless accident. It matters not. All that matters is that Consciousness exists and is evolving and will continue to evolve as long as the Universe exists, and potentially even beyond.
Do you understand this?
The human brain didn't evolve for ANY reason, any more than the Physical Universe exists for ANY reason. The reason came much later - even after the human brain.
The reason came with the advent of Consciousness and the reason is evolving too.

I agree rather well here.

 

[Navigator]

Upon Conscious reflection of the recent data I have received in this forum as well as in my experience 'walking around' I offer as a possible substitute for the meaning 'spiritual' to be that of "Concern" with all its accompanying variety of expression.

What say ye, aye, nay, maybe...

 

[Navigator]

The individual's consciousness cannot think whatever it wants; it is reliant upon the condition of the brain to facilitate normal neurological processing and thinking.

Of course not. The condition of a singular brain determines how a Consciousness might not be able to express itself.
That is 'normal' - what may well be as normal, is that the condition of a singular brain may well allow for that singular Consciousness to have access to more than it is even willing to think about and otherwise utilize.
The brain - naturally - would not care either way. Concern is another invention of Consciousness.

This doesn't mean that the brain is mindless, but it does mean that it is limited by the facilitation of the brain.
It is extremely easy to disrupt "you" by very little effort of impacting the brain.

What you would 'very easily' be doing is disrupting my brain so that I (this individual Consciousness) would be unable to any longer use that brain as I presently am able to use it.
Not withstanding this, your disrupting my brain (the thing I use) would not overly impact on the evolution of Consciousness in its (more real) holistic sense.

 

[tsig]

When I read you Arcade 22 - and other aspects of Consciousness which embrace this kind of reasoning I - as an individual Entity of Consciousness think this:

"As Consciousness, if all sign and accompanying impulse and behavior in relation to wooism has to be eradicated from my being, I must with equal enthusiasm eradicate all sign and accompanying impulse and behavior in relation to woop-de-doism from my same said being"



You are confusing the brain to being some kind of mindful thing Arcade 22. It is not.
EVERY outside stimuli is given importance or not, by the existence of Consciousness - which is the true meaning of personal choice.
This includes your choice to think in whatever manner you chose to. It is NOT the brain in your skull which dictates to YOU, what you decide to think, or how you decide to choose based upon those thoughts.

YOU are not the mindless brain. You are Consciousness. Consciousness is NOT "It's just a bunch of molecules...Just a group of chemical processes."




Indeed. We must also take extreme great care when thinking about Consciousness, because it is indeed, very, very special, even if you do not think so at the moment.
Please, take some time to sincerely think about the extreme special-ness of the existence of Consciousness in this otherwise mindless universe and your part in that fact, and perhaps through that process develop thoughts as to what it is you might be able to personally achieve as ways of allowing the emotion of awe to inspire you as part of that Consciousness to nurturing that fact in the recognition of it as you, and as others.



No - it was a mindless accident. It matters not. All that matters is that Consciousness exists and is evolving and will continue to evolve as long as the Universe exists, and potentially even beyond.
Do you understand this?
The human brain didn't evolve for ANY reason, any more than the Physical Universe exists for ANY reason. The reason came much later - even after the human brain.
The reason came with the advent of Consciousness and the reason is evolving too.

This Consciousness sounds a lot like a soul.

 

[Navigator]

But that amazing accomplishment doesn't mean that consciousness is transcendent to the brain.

I realize that it is unavoidable that what I am attempting to express carries with it the risk of being delegated wooism.

I am happy to persevere with making it a point that I am not.

I would like to remind everyone that certain branch(es) of the scientific community are indeed in various processes of visualizing and working toward the possibility of creating machinery which will either eventually become self aware (Conscious) and/or through this process it may become apparent that Human Consciousness can be transferred into the mechanics/machinery.

If this were to happen, then it could be said that Human Consciousness can indeed transcend the Human Brain but until such a time that Human Beings create such a device (or devices) which can objectively prove this, Human Consciousness has been, is and will continue to work towards making such a thing reality.

One major reason for this actually being in the process of (it is happening) is because Consciousness cares enough about itself to recognize the necessity of nurturing and protecting itself - and I am speaking in relation to its holistic reality. There are hundreds of thousands of individual brains being utilized by Consciousness to make the attempt at this, possible.

 

[Navigator]

This Consciousness sounds a lot like a soul.

We have to allow for that. The idea of the 'soul' comes from Consciousness in the first place, as all ideas do.

Culture and religion for example, could be seen as a trail left by Human Consciousness in its ongoing and very real efforts to identify itself, eventually in ways that are neither wooish or whop-de-doish.

A 'soul' for example is something that exists after the body has died.
We don't know that it does or doesn't, and to assume either way is not intelligent.

Thus, we have narrowed it down to Human Consciousness in relation to the physical universe in relation to the Earth as an HOLISTIC ongoing ( and awesome) real thing which WILL continue on IN this physical universe AS a Conscious certainty even that the individual parts of it and what contributed to it have ceased to be, and even as more are born into and contributing toward that process.

 

[zeggman]

I realize that it is unavoidable that what I am attempting to express carries with it the risk of being delegated wooism.

Yep.

Consciousness cares enough about itself to recognize the necessity of nurturing and protecting itself - and I am speaking in relation to its holistic reality. There are hundreds of thousands of individual brains being utilized by Consciousness to make the attempt at this, possible.

I confess I'm unable to discern anything which distinguishes this from typical new-age babble. I think Deepak Chopra posits consciousness independent of brains, and maybe "universe as hologram" too, but I tend to tune out whenever I hear this kind of talk so I can't be sure.

 

[JaysonR]

Navigator;

OK, so you are essentially organizing consciousness as independent of the brain, but reliant upon the brain for articulation.

I can't refute the claim outright, but I can say that this:

Thus, we have narrowed it down to Human Consciousness in relation to the physical universe in relation to the Earth as an HOLISTIC ongoing ( and awesome) real thing which WILL continue on IN this physical universe AS a Conscious certainty even that the individual parts of it and what contributed to it have ceased to be, and even as more are born into and contributing toward that process.

...would require some form of support in evidence which entirely lacks at this point to offer.

We have no evidence that consciousness continues on after the constituents of the brain fail to supply consciousness with articulated capacity.
We do have evidence that consciousness no longer continues after the constituents of the brain fail to supply consciousness with articulated capacity; brain damage, and death.

However, we have no way of testing the ethereal existence of a non-physical consciousness.

So far, there is no indication such a state exists; that is all that I can offer on the matter.


That said, since this is your perspective, there are two books that you might personally find captivating:

The Eye of Shiva: Eastern Mysticism and Science
I can't find an online and free copy of this, so use an ebook reader or buy the book, but it's worth the read.

The Nuts and Bolts of Consciousness
This one can be read from this link.
It is a self-published book from a member of ilovephilosophy.com after a lengthy amount of forum debates regarding consciousness; you might find it interesting, as the author holds a similar perspective as your perspective.

 

[Navigator]

...would require some form of support in evidence which entirely lacks at this point to offer.

The evidence is everywhere human beings are.

You are still confusing what I am saying. Even though it is really quite clear that I have made sure to include that the individual aspects of Consciousness die, I in no way said they 'live on' somewhere else, nor should this be inferred in what I have said.


To be sure I will underline where in that statement this is evident.

Thus, we have narrowed it down to Human Consciousness in relation to the physical universe in relation to the Earth as an HOLISTIC ongoing ( and awesome) real thing which WILL continue on IN this physical universe AS a Conscious certainty even that the individual parts of it and what contributed to it have ceased to be, and even as more are born into and contributing toward that process.

To clarify then, Consciousness as an holistic certainty is going to continue way after you and I are long dead.

 

[Navigator]

I confess I'm unable to discern anything which distinguishes this from typical new-age babble. I think Deepak Chopra posits consciousness independent of brains, and maybe "universe as hologram" too, but I tend to tune out whenever I hear this kind of talk so I can't be sure.

Okay it is easy enough to break down.
When I refer to Consciousness in its Holistic state of being I am saying.

The Overall Consciousness of the Human species represents the way humanity is evolving consciously through the outward expression of its parts - we individuals of whom there are some 7 Billion(?).

Consciousness cares enough about itself to recognize the necessity of nurturing and protecting itself - and I am speaking in relation to its holistic reality. There are hundreds of thousands of individual brains being utilized by Consciousness to make the attempt at this, possible.

Breaking things down:

Consciousness cares enough about itself to recognize the necessity of nurturing and protecting itself...

There are aspects of consciousness which are working together to achieve certain things which will ensure it gets the best opportunity to survive and prosper, eventually leave the planet and start exploring and utilizing the Galaxy.
For example, if it were ONLY up to those aspects of humanity which are seriously attempting to eradicate other aspects of humanity, while this is part of the overall process of the Consciousness of Humanity, if it were the ONLY part, then this would show that no effort is being made in other areas of science - only the science in ways of creating weapons of destruction would be nurtured.

...and I am speaking in relation to its holistic reality. There are hundreds of thousands of individual brains being utilized by Consciousness to make the attempt at this, possible.

These brains are being utilized by the overall Consciousness of the Human Species in quiet a few branches of scientific research and development.


If you choose to see this as 'woo-woo' it may be that you have allowed you bias against wooism to cloud your eyes regarding the awesome thing happening on this planet in relation to the evolution of Consciousness as it pertains to said planet.

Be aware that you might have developed enough bias against wooism that the 'tuning out' process becomes automatic and you can always thus find your comfort in leaning towards and supporting Whop-de-doism as a counter measure but that won't have any more effect on the outcome of the evolution of collective Human Consciousness than wooism.

If ones focus is only on certain parts of the whole, that is the only data you will be able to process and your overall picture as an individual Consciousness will be continuously incomplete.

 

[crestfallensidekick]

No; I don't subscribe to any literal, superstitious form of spirituality, and even if I meet the criteria for some broader use of the term (connection to nature, art etc.), I'd simply find a term with no supernatural connotation to describe said connection. This is basically the same reason I stopped identifying as ignostic and simply started calling myself an atheist.

 

[zeggman]

Consciousness cares enough about itself to recognize the necessity of nurturing and protecting itself - and I am speaking in relation to its holistic reality. There are hundreds of thousands of individual brains being utilized by Consciousness to make the attempt at this, possible.

I don't think it's useful or valid to personify (deify?) consciousness as you are doing.

Yes, there are billions of human beings who are using their consciousness to make their way in the world. Human civilization is an emergent property of all of this activity. Since humanity will outlive each individual human for the foreseeable future, the consciousness which exists in the brains of the survivors will persist even though each individual dies.

I may still be missing the point you're trying to make, but you seem to be anthropomorphizing a concept. It makes no more sense than saying "Information wants to be free." Ideas which exist inside human minds do not have independent lives with goals and desires of their own, and it sounds silly to me when people write as if they do.

 

[immaterial]

I don't get this word "spiritual". Is there something that someone else can feel but not me? Perhaps cavemen might have an inclination for mysticism but now we know better I think. I think people who claim to be spiritual are frauds. They like to believe they are on some higher plane that the rest of us can't get to. What a bunch of pretentious liars. Spirituality is not reality but a pretext for making the rest of us feel incomplete so if we pay up we can get it too. Whenever I hear the word I feel the urge to gag. There is no such thing. Maybe I am too sensitive because I had a very nice girl once who dumped me because I wasn't spiritual enough.

I imagine the word spiritual was invented when materialism made its entry, to make up for that part of reality which materialism seems to ignore/exclude.

 

[immaterial]

"Spiritual" seems to mean a variety of things to many people, as indicated. A lot of our friends are involved in the local neo-pagan community, and some describe the word as simply being involved in human rights or social justice or whatever....
Whereas others believe in literal "nature spirits"....

My own partly tongue-in-cheek definition is "How human beings think about and react to things that they only imagine to exist."

If I see something that someone else doesn't see, is it then me who sees something that isn't there or he that doesn't see something that is there?

Like Schopenhauer said: "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world."

 

[Astreja]

I've had experiences which could be classified as "spiritual." In every case that I can recall, they involved an unfamiliar and unexpected combination of emotion and physical sensation.

Although initially these phenomena appeared to point to some uncharted territory, I now think that they were just one-off neurological glitches. I suppose it's possible to cause more of the same kind of glitch by practising disciplines such as meditation, but I don't see a lot of value in submersing Myself in an ocean of subjective "Oh, wow!" sensations and perceptions.

 

[sowhat]

I have never understood why people never want to give the brain its due.
Maybe because its such an ugly looking squiggly thing. It just can't be "us".

I guess I'm radical, or maybe we should read stupid, but the idea of making "mind" and/or "consciousness" seperate realities that exist outside the brain doesn't make sense to me. We all know what happens to both when something happens to the brain.
I get that our thoughts continue to exist outside of our brain when they are transmitted and absorbed by other brains, but I don't see that as making them physical "things".

It seems to me that what are being described are processes, not things.
What is breath? Air is taken in, oxygen is transmitted by the blood and carbon dioxide removed. Does that make "breath" a thing? Does it continue on when the lungs cease to work?

Just an old guy here, with no hard won credentials hanging on my walls. Just thinkin'.

 

[Navigator]

We each have the unique ability to see things as we will.
Perhaps there are those who simply cannot see beyond the "whop de do so what who gives a toss point of view," or the "woowoo this universe is nothing compared to the invisible ones point of view" which as I have said is not the same ...attitude which propels our species Consciousness into the future it is more and more creating for itself.

That is the science of things.

We see it for whatever we chose to see as individuals and for me, as I said:

"As Consciousness, if all sign and accompanying impulse and behavior in relation to wooism has to be eradicated from my being, I must with equal enthusiasm eradicate all sign and accompanying impulse and behavior in relation to woop-de-doism from my same said being"

I would wonder too at those who would actually attempt to make me believe in the way they think to be the way that everyone should think, no matter whether they are being woowoo or whopdedo. Either one is of no value as far as the holistic species Consciousness is concerned in regard to the future of said Consciousness.

I think both woowoo and whopdedo are on their way to natural extinction.

"Get out of the road if you cant lend a hand" springs to mind. The times indeed are a-changing.