Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

out of the mouths of prosecutors and their witnesses

Charlie, Good points about the WM3. When the prosecution starts invoking semen-eating maggots, or argues that a body that shows signs of only a few days of decay was really left weeks ago, that is a pretty good sign they are holding onto a wrongful accusation or conviction. Another example that comes to mind is a case in which it was argued that bacterial degradation caused a change in blood type. It might be worthwhile to compile a list of strange things said by the prosecution or its forensic witnesses to defend various convictions. From the present case we have a scratch that only Stefanoni can see and two parallel lines that morph into something compatible with Amanda's size of shoe. If anything, these look mild by comparison.

 

[Dan O.]

... because there is just too much evidence proving that they did not stay at Rafs all night, they are lying.

Sherlock, what evidence "proves" that they did not stay at Raf's all night? You are making this claim, it is your burden to prove it.


I think Sherlock is just comming here to throw out defamatory remarks because he is getting attention back at PMF. It makes him look brave in the eyes of so many over there that have gotten their arguments shredded by bringing them here. Of course Sherlock isn't going to respond. He hasn't got a valid argument and he knows it. All he can do is run away when he gets challenged and try to come back when the topic has changed. It's time to create a list of Sherlock's claims and the unanswered questions put to him so they can be reposted when he returns from hiding.

Sherlock has claimed that I am being nasty. Let him say that after he has spent 4 years in a foreign prison and he is being called a liar by a horde of anonymous Internet posters.

 

[Grinder]

Sherlock, in the grand scheme of things none of this matters but I'm going to try this one, one more time.

Many PGP have speculated that Meredith fought back and many have speculated that she caused Amanda to bleed and leave a drop on the sink. Some say she gave her a nosebleed while others question the hickey and say it really was an injury caused by Meredith. This has been a subject at .org for the last couple of days again.

The DNA would be under Meredith's fingernails. When someone scratches someone else with their fingernails DNA is left under the scratcher's fingernail. They have torn the skin of their target and it would have some end up under the nail as well as the blood.

This isn't touch DNA. This isn't "normal" transfer. This is as close to mandatory as possible.

The only way that DNA isn't there is if her hands were cleaned thoroughly. The PGP, as often is the case, didn't think through their scenario.

 

[acbytesla]

Sherlock, what evidence "proves" that they did not stay at Raf's all night? You are making this claim, it is your burden to prove it.

I think Sherlock is just comming here to throw out defamatory remarks because he is getting attention back at PMF. It makes him look brave in the eyes of so many over there that have gotten their arguments shredded by bringing them here. Of course Sherlock isn't going to respond. He hasn't got a valid argument and he knows it. All he can do is run away when he gets challenged and try to come back when the topic has changed. It's time to create a list of Sherlock's claims and the unanswered questions put to him so they can be reposted when he returns from hiding.

Sherlock has claimed that I am being nasty. Let him say that after he has spent 4 years in a foreign prison and he is being called a liar by a horde of anonymous Internet posters.

I too, am curious about the so called evidence that proves that Amanda and Raffaele left his apartment that night? Seriously Sherlock, what evidence are you speaking about? In fact, I don't see any at all. No CCTV camera footage of the two of them on foot that night. No CCTV footage of Raffaele's car, no phone calls made from towers that are incompatible with Raffaele's apartment, no reliable witnesses that saw them on the street.

In fact there is only the testimony of Curatolo that they left his apartment that night. And Curatolo is hardly credible.

What little evidence there is actually leads to the conclusion that they stayed in. And while that evidence is not conclusive, there is no evidence that I've seen that contradicts it.

So Sherlock, what evidence in your mind is proof that they left Raffaele's apartment?

 

[Dan O.]

Hickey

[imgl]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/151444c41c56563aa4.jpg[/IMGL]

The PGP say that no hickey looks like her mark and they giddily speculate on Meredith scratching her as a last act.

They won't come herre and say that.

There is no mixed blood. Amanda's blood was found on the faucet but not mixed. There is not an issue, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Mixed blood is a technical issue when it comes to proof. The prosecution cannot prove there was mixed blood and the defense cannot prove that there wasn't. What can be said is there is no evidence that there was mixed blood.



But why is Sherlock even bringing it up since it is his belief that Amanda wasn't involved with the murder.

 

[anglolawyer]

I too, am curious about the so called evidence that proves that Amanda and Raffaele left his apartment that night? Seriously Sherlock, what evidence are you speaking about? In fact, I don't see any at all. No CCTV camera footage of the two of them on foot that night. No CCTV footage of Raffaele's car, no phone calls made from towers that are incompatible with Raffaele's apartment, no reliable witnesses that saw them on the street.

In fact there is only the testimony of Curatolo that they left his apartment that night. And Curatolo is hardly credible.

What little evidence there is actually leads to the conclusion that they stayed in. And while that evidence is not conclusive, there is no evidence that I've seen that contradicts it.

So Sherlock, what evidence in your mind is proof that they left Raffaele's apartment?

Boy, you really need to read the SC motivation. The amazing thing, I mean really amazing, is that not even the PGPs run some of the arguments accepted by Italy's highest court.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>So can we expect to see the ‘Friends of Manders & Raffy‘ campaigning for longer terms for sex killers in Italy generally? That’s the rational progression of your argument.<snip>

The rational progression of all PIP arguments is simply that the Italian judicial system be more rational, both specifically and in general.

If this natural progression is not followed & I see no sign of it yet then the suspicion of special treatment for the ‘black boy’ remains.

So best get cracking – you will probably find that the pro victim advocates would readily support you guys in such a noble cause.

Why do you keep putting "black boy" in quotes, as if someone here used that term? I recall that term being used only by the Perugian police, about Patrick Lumumba.

 

[Christian Klippel]

besonderhandlung for the ‘black boy’ it is then.

Using terms from a foreign langauge to mock someone looks really stupid if those terms are totally misspelled. Using a german term to make a thinly veiled implication of racism makes it look extremely stupid.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[acbytesla]

Boy, you really need to read the SC motivation. The amazing thing, I mean really amazing, is that not even the PGPs run some of the arguments accepted by Italy's highest court.

I've heard. I'm going to read it, I actually have the pdf of the recent English translation on my computer. It seems as if the SC has actually been ruling on the actual evidence and not the law as is it's purview.

My problem is that I don't suffer fools very well. And this is the worst kind of foolishness, morons with authority. So while I know I will read it in total, I also know that it will make me angry.

 

[Mary_H]

PIPs seem to think every time someone touches another, they leave DNA behind, where is all your DNA in the bathroom of Rudi? You guys have him doing all sorts of things in there, no DNA of Amanda in murder room so she wasn't in there, right. Can't have it both ways.....

The investigators found no DNA of Rudy in the bathroom for the same reason they found no DNA of all sorts of people who lived in the house or visited it -- it wasn't what they were looking for. At the time they took samples from the bathroom, Rudy was unknown. Judging from what we have seen of the DNA testing, it is entirely probable they looked only for matches to Amanda and Meredith's DNA in the bathroom and tossed or ignored anything they couldn't immediately match or identify.

By the time Rudy was caught, they had enough samples from the bedroom to indict him. Meanwhile, all the likely areas for DNA in the bathroom had been sprayed down with phenolphthalein, probably washing away any potentially useful samples.

 

[Mary_H]

"THE OSMOTIC EVALUATION OF A SEXUAL FANTASY " title of CD latest article on GR. But I am getting that Deja vu feeling all over again.

She takes the title from the fact that the SC uses the term osmotic or osmosis at least three times in the translated motivation document.

I know somewhere we discussed this very term and we did so before the SC ruled IIRC. Does anyone remember the details? Yummi/Mach perhaps?

Maybe I'm just dreaming. Osmotic is odd and not all that dreamy though. Anyone?

London John was first to bring the term "osmosis" to these threads back in June/July 2010 as I recall.

In part 2, I brought up osmosis in an argument that the knife would have retained blood evidence:

Kaosium talks about meme transfer:

And Chris brings up osmotic shock:

Plus, there has to have been at least one poster who wrote, "This case sucks."

 

[acbytesla]

Boy do I hate their Supreme Court's use of the term osmotic. It's sort of their way of saying that evidence doesn't matter. It is them saying that the court should be looking for a way to find Amanda and Raffaele guilty regardless of the evidence. You see osmosis is the method of how some molecules pass through a permeable barrier.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Q and A with Raffaele

Candace Dempsey interviews Raffaele.

 

[Antony]

I've heard. I'm going to read it, I actually have the pdf of the recent English translation on my computer.

Where can we download it, please?

It seems as if the SC has actually been ruling on the actual evidence and not the law as is it's purview.

My problem is that I don't suffer fools very well. And this is the worst kind of foolishness, morons with authority. So while I know I will read it in total, I also know that it will make me angry.

It's anger that drives us to follow this case.

 

[Paninaro]

Where can we download it, please?

http://www.injustice-anywhere.org/CassazioneTranslationFull.pdf

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I too, am curious about the so called evidence that proves that Amanda and Raffaele left his apartment that night? Seriously Sherlock, what evidence are you speaking about? In fact, I don't see any at all. No CCTV camera footage of the two of them on foot that night. No CCTV footage of Raffaele's car, no phone calls made from towers that are incompatible with Raffaele's apartment, no reliable witnesses that saw them on the street.

In fact there is only the testimony of Curatolo that they left his apartment that night. And Curatolo is hardly credible.

What little evidence there is actually leads to the conclusion that they stayed in. And while that evidence is not conclusive, there is no evidence that I've seen that contradicts it.

So Sherlock, what evidence in your mind is proof that they left Raffaele's apartment?

There is no evidence in a PIP's mind, but in others there is Toto the hobo, Amanda, Raff as well, that mysterious footprint of Rudi, the bra clasp the knife, the staged break in and the list just goes on and on. I am fully aware how you PIPs discredit all of this, I'm also aware how everyone connected to this case is a liar, incompetent, dumb and crooked, and I'm also aware how this encompasses the entire police force, the scientific community and the judges and prosecutors and almost everyone connected to this case that doesn't agree with the PIP way of thinking.

 

[Mary_H]

There is no evidence in a PIP's mind, but in others there is Toto the hobo, Amanda, Raff as well, that mysterious footprint of Rudi, the bra clasp the knife, the staged break in and the list just goes on and on. I am fully aware how you PIPs discredit all of this, I'm also aware how everyone connected to this case is a liar, incompetent, dumb and crooked, and I'm also aware how this encompasses the entire police force, the scientific community and the judges and prosecutors and almost everyone connected to this case that doesn't agree with the PIP way of thinking.

Do you think it is impossible that there can be a case in which everyone connected to the prosecution is a liar, incompetent, dumb or crooked?

 

[Grinder]

There is no evidence in a PIP's mind, but in others there is Toto the hobo, Amanda, Raff as well, that mysterious footprint of Rudi, the bra clasp the knife, the staged break in and the list just goes on and on. I am fully aware how you PIPs discredit all of this, I'm also aware how everyone connected to this case is a liar, incompetent, dumb and crooked, and I'm also aware how this encompasses the entire police force, the scientific community and the judges and prosecutors and almost everyone connected to this case that doesn't agree with the PIP way of thinking.

Why the litany of all that need to be involved whenever challenged?

The only evidence of them not being in the apartment when they said they were was Curatolo.

The "staged break-in has no ties to Amanda and Raf nor does it have a time-stamp on it. Maybe they came to the cottage, found the dead Meredith, thought they'll try to pin it on us so we'll stage a burglary. To be clear I'm not suggesting that is true but that even the staged, if staged" burglary doesn't qualify as evidence that they were out and about at any times the claimed otherwise.

The mysterious footprint of Rudi? Once again if you insist that Rudi couldn't return to the killing room because the laws of something require him to leave prints returning, that still doesn't give any evidence that they weren't at the flat all night.

The list does not go on and on. It begins with and ends with Curatolo, the junkie and professional witness.

Their are public CCTV that have been shown on this thread. There must be private security CCTV in stores that usually have one camera pointed at the front door. Not one image of either of them. No one that knew them from the hood noticed them out. No diner saw them marching with the knife. No one else in the piazza backed up Curatolo's sightings and he said there were lots of people there in masks catching the disco buses.

Few, if any, here speak of any grand conspiracy. Some of us think that the bra clasp looked suspicious from the beginning and even more so after Dr. S destroyed the evidence. That's about it for conspiracy.

 

[acbytesla]

There is no evidence in a PIP's mind, but in others there is Toto the hobo, Amanda, Raff as well, that mysterious footprint of Rudi, the bra clasp the knife, the staged break in and the list just goes on and on. I am fully aware how you PIPs discredit all of this, I'm also aware how everyone connected to this case is a liar, incompetent, dumb and crooked, and I'm also aware how this encompasses the entire police force, the scientific community and the judges and prosecutors and almost everyone connected to this case that doesn't agree with the PIP way of thinking.

First let me thank you for at least saying what evidence you think proves they left Raffaele's apartment.

I for one do not believe that everyone connected to this case is incompetent, dumb and crooked. Having said that, the investigators definitely made mistakes.
Toto??, you mean Curatolo? the hobo that admitted to taking heroin that night and whose testimony is contradicted by the Kiosk proprietors? Don't you find it unreasonable that the Italian courts are willing to believe Curatolo, but not Tremantano?

What mysterious footprint of Rudy's are you talking about? Are you talking about the bloody bathmat footprint? Or something else? Staged break in? What evidence is there that the break in was staged? Seriously. I've seen it argued, but I certainly have seen nothing that proves the break in was staged. And even if was staged, which I don't believe, How does either of these points prove that they left Raffaele's apartment?

The bra clasp where the allele matches half the men in the courtroom? The knife that doesn't match the wounds or the bloody print on the sheet?

What's weird is that almost the entire scientific community has come to the conclusion that there is no reliable evidence in this case.

I'm curious Sherlock. At what point do you start thinking like your moniker?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Do you think it is impossible that there can be a case in which everyone connected to the prosecution is a liar, incompetent, dumb or crooked?

Yes, I would think that impossible, and not all of them are connected to the prosecution, how is Filomena connected for one.