Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

Is that article by CD?

KP not CD

 

[Chris_Halkides]

still waiting on that comprehensive theory

Now you can’t rewrite the Italian penal code (whether wearing a wig or a sheet) to retrospectively alter the fast track reduction. So the only option is stiffer sentences for crimes of this nature.

You are offering a false choice. The Italian penal code would have to be rewritten in either case (change the nature of the fast track or make the sentence for murder and rape greater). Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that the prosecution appealed for longer sentences for Amanda and Raffaele but not Rudy. There is no reason he should get mitigation but not them. Therefore, your argument is illogical.

Italy's first reform to its penal code should be the statement that the defense has an absolute right to discovery of the EDFs in cases involving DNA evidence. In addition, Italy could adopt an open discovery system, similar to one that is in place in many states in the U.S.

Would you offer a comprehensive theory of the crime? Several of us are waiting expectantly.

 

[RoseMontague]

The accusations of racism just sidetrack the discussion of the evidence. Which is probably the purpose of the accusations to begin with. My suggestion is just ignore it as Charlie also suggested earlier.

 

[GreyFox]

@Platonov
In the link above Rose provided what were calling "Cassazione no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008 " and it mentions something about anal bruising ? Now I'm not a doctor like the rest of Italy but could you take a crack at explaining that one ? Is this something that occured from Rudy's 1st date with the victim since you tend to go his way and think he might not be so bad ? Honestly, I'm not 100% on what that means...So how do you perceive it ?

 

[Grinder]

Re: The scratch/hickey - did the PLE find DNA under Meredith's fingernails?

PGP please note that if three people were killing her and holding her arms etc, she wouldn't have been able to "scratch" Amanda's neck yet this is a major meme for you. So, I suppose you guess she broke free of the hold and scratched at Amanda but then where's the DNA under the nails?

There are are so many of these missing pieces of expected evidence that the PG must make so many excuses for. They keep talking about clean-ups but can show no proof of these mysterious lacks of evidence.

Amanda walks around (mostly with one foot and in no explainable pattern) leaving "bloody" footprints but there is no place that shows where she picked up the blood. Did they find any of her prints with visible blood or did her prints only show up under luminol?
Do the the PGP speculate that she cleaned away the visible prints? Was there any evidence that substantiates that?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Re: The scratch/hickey - did the PLE find DNA under Meredith's fingernails?

PGP please note that if three people were killing her and holding her arms etc, she wouldn't have been able to "scratch" Amanda's neck yet this is a major meme for you. So, I suppose you guess she broke free of the hold and scratched at Amanda but then where's the DNA under the nails?

There are are so many of these missing pieces of expected evidence that the PG must make so many excuses for. They keep talking about clean-ups but can show no proof of these mysterious lacks of evidence.

Amanda walks around (mostly with one foot and in no explainable pattern) leaving "bloody" footprints but there is no place that shows where she picked up the blood. Did they find any of her prints with visible blood or did her prints only show up under luminol?
Do the the PGP speculate that she cleaned away the visible prints? Was there any evidence that substantiates that?

PIPs seem to think every time someone touches another, they leave DNA behind, where is all your DNA in the bathroom of Rudi? You guys have him doing all sorts of things in there, no DNA of Amanda in murder room so she wasn't in there, right. Can't have it both ways.....

 

[platonov]

Special treatment it is ?

You are offering a false choice. The Italian penal code would have to be rewritten in either case (change the nature of the fast track or make the sentence for murder and rape greater). Moreover, you are ignoring the fact that the prosecution appealed for longer sentences for Amanda and Raffaele but not Rudy. There is no reason he should get mitigation but not them. Therefore, your argument is illogical.

Italy's first reform to its penal code should be the statement that the defense has an absolute right to discovery of the EDFs in cases involving DNA evidence. In addition, Italy could adopt an open discovery system, similar to one that is in place in many states in the U.S.

Would you offer a comprehensive theory of the crime? Several of us are waiting expectantly.

Nonsense – I could claim to be surprised at you halides1 but TBH I’m not.
Stiffer sentencing would not require a rewrite – its at the courts discretion, within limits of course.

As is common knowledge to anyone following this case and has been posted numerous times [& possibly directly to you] a range of sentences are possible.
RG for example got life at his first trial – reduced to 30 yrs due to fast track IIRC.

So straight away within the confines of this case we have life, 30 and 24.

Now reappraised [for the 27th time] of this information I ask again ……

Are you in favour of stiffer sentences for crimes of this nature (rape/murder)
Or is it a case of besonderhandlung for the ‘black boy’.

Take your time - I won’t hold my breath.

You snipped a large portion of my post – can I take it a new campaign will not be launched.

 

[Grinder]

PIPs seem to think every time someone touches another, they leave DNA behind, where is all your DNA in the bathroom of Rudi? You guys have him doing all sorts of things in there, no DNA of Amanda in murder room so she wasn't in there, right. Can't have it both ways.....

Sherlock - I was addressing Meredith's theoretical scratching of Amanda that the PGP are so fond of believing in. There is no way that she could cause Amanda's injury that then bled unto the sink, all part of the PG theory, without leaving DNA under her nails.

Both sides should be consistent. The PGP always point out that Rudi's DNA wasn't found in F's room therefore he wasn't there. Okay but Raf's DNA wasn't found there either and AFAIK the PLE "forgot" to test the blood on the broken glass window. Now let's compare the two missing DNA situations.

In the murder room the PGP have a violent struggle with Meredith breaking loose long enough to scratch Amanda. According to the PGP, the murder involved all three in a vicious struggle. In the break-in room the PIP would have Rudi entering wearing gloves with not getting caught foremost on his mind. Gloves, long sleeve shirt or jacket, watch cap perhaps and moving in a stealthy manor. Back to the murder room, wild struggle in a small area with an intensity that would preclude thinking of what was being left behind.

So Sherlock can you see the difference? Can you see that I'm pointing to a specific reason Amanda's DNA should have been found in a specific place? Say, yes or tell the PGP that they should drop the assertions about Meredith scratching Amanda.

It seems that the PGP saying that Rudi leaving DNA in F's room or no break-in is the same as A & R not leaving DNA in the murder room and that clearly isn't true.

 

[Dan O.]

"THE OSMOTIC EVALUATION OF A SEXUAL FANTASY " title of CD latest article on GR. But I am getting that Deja vu feeling all over again.

She takes the title from the fact that the SC uses the term osmotic or osmosis at least three times in the translated motivation document.

I know somewhere we discussed this very term and we did so before the SC ruled IIRC. Does anyone remember the details? Yummi/Mach perhaps?

Maybe I'm just dreaming. Osmotic is odd and not all that dreamy though. Anyone?

London John was first to bring the term "osmosis" to these threads back in June/July 2010 as I recall.

It seems that some people are trying to show "guilt by osmosis" - i.e. "Look everyone! These guys committed murder, and they are in SO many ways similar to Knox and/or Sollecito - so that must mean Knox and Sollecito committed murder too, right?!" Uhhhh....wrong.

In part 2, I brought up osmosis in an argument that the knife would have retained blood evidence:

If there is any opening here, blood would be sucked up into the crack by osmosis and would be practically impossible to clean out.

Kaosium talks about meme transfer:

I'm also a 'veteran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKNaIXtBZQ) of a thousand ether wars' and learned long ago whatever posted only reflects on whomever posted it, it doesn't transfer by osmosis to whoever it's posted to.

And Chris brings up osmatic shock:

I have personal experience lysing blood cells with simple deionized water. The cells break open due to osmotic shock.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Sorry, Wrong Number

You snipped a large portion of my post.

I only snip the unimportant portions. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that it would take a change in the Italian penal code to produce my preferred sentencing options for the crime in question. Conversations are supposed to be two-way streets, yet you continue to ignore my questions and those of others: Should Rudy be given mitigation and not the other two, and if so, why? How were the state's interest served by giving Rudy a fast-track reduction? Is a sixteen-year sentence for Rudy (the person whose DNA was found in Meredith's intimate regions) justice for Meredith Kercher? What is your comprehensive theory of the crime?

 

[platonov]

'besonderhandlung' for the ‘black boy’ it is then.

I only snip the unimportant portions. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that it would take a change in the Italian penal code to produce my preferred sentencing options for the crime in question. Conversations are supposed to be two-way streets, yet you continue to ignore my questions and those of others: Should Rudy be given mitigation and not the other two, and if so, why? How were the state's interest served by giving Rudy a fast-track reduction? Is a sixteen-year sentence for Rudy (the person whose DNA was found in Meredith's intimate regions) justice for Meredith Kercher? What is your comprehensive theory of the crime?

besonderhandlung for the ‘black boy’ it is then.

That didn't take long now did it.

What's that old saw - give 'em enough rope and they will .........
lynch someone.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's because they don't have one, and it's both easier and evidently a bigger thrill to come and grab some attention here, and always with the giveaway pedantry (On the origin of species - short form and long - who knew?) -before sidling off again.

He goes after halides1 on creationism of all things!!!!! And then he has the gall to call this a FOAKer campaign!!

Talk about campaigns! The new guilter offensive is just like the old. Talk about anything except how the crime happened.

Does platonov realize the New Scientist has just ruled out Knox at the crime scene?

 

[Dan O.]

@Platonov
In the link above Rose provided what were calling "Cassazione no. 990/08, dated 4-01-2008 "

My preferred file naming is to start with the date in yyyy-mm-dd format. That way they collate nicely in a directory listing and there is no confusion about the date because nobody uses yyyy-dd-mm.

 

[anglolawyer]

He goes after halides1 on creationism of all things!!!!! And then he has the gall to call this a FOAKer campaign!!

Talk about campaigns! The new guilter offensive is just like the old. Talk about anything except how the crime happened.

Does platonov realize the New Scientist has just ruled out Knox at the crime scene?

I wouldn't give it such a fancy word. Turns out Platonov only has one setting: to characterise any statement about Rudy, no matter how reasonable, as racist. He, she or it resolutely refuses to discuss anything meaningfully and is probably wise to stick to that.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sherlock - I was addressing Meredith's theoretical scratching of Amanda that the PGP are so fond of believing in. There is no way that she could cause Amanda's injury that then bled unto the sink, all part of the PG theory, without leaving DNA under her nails.

Both sides should be consistent. The PGP always point out that Rudi's DNA wasn't found in F's room therefore he wasn't there. Okay but Raf's DNA wasn't found there either and AFAIK the PLE "forgot" to test the blood on the broken glass window. Now let's compare the two missing DNA situations.

In the murder room the PGP have a violent struggle with Meredith breaking loose long enough to scratch Amanda. According to the PGP, the murder involved all three in a vicious struggle. In the break-in room the PIP would have Rudi entering wearing gloves with not getting caught foremost on his mind. Gloves, long sleeve shirt or jacket, watch cap perhaps and moving in a stealthy manor. Back to the murder room, wild struggle in a small area with an intensity that would preclude thinking of what was being left behind.

So Sherlock can you see the difference? Can you see that I'm pointing to a specific reason Amanda's DNA should have been found in a specific place? Say, yes or tell the PGP that they should drop the assertions about Meredith scratching Amanda.

It seems that the PGP saying that Rudi leaving DNA in F's room or no break-in is the same as A & R not leaving DNA in the murder room and that clearly isn't true.

I'll tell them, but most don't listen to me.. First off, no DNA doesn't mean they weren't there I'm sure we can agree because you guys want Rudi in that bathroom and in Filomena's room, therefore, why the big stink always with the no Amanda DNA in the murder room? Just saying, you can't have it both ways.

 

[js202]

besonderhandlung for the ‘black boy’ it is then.

That didn't take long now did it.

What's that old saw - give 'em enough rope and they will .........
lynch someone.

This is utterly specious nonsense.

To anyone adequately equipped to think through this case, the "black boy" deserves the sentence he received, and more, because it was only *his* incontrovertible evidence that was strewn all over the scene of the crime. If Rudy Guede happened to be some obscure shade of chartreuse, it would be no offense to the race of such persons to deplore that he may well be walking the streets at least part of the day, by some reports in a year's time.

"Arguments" such as yours arise from a non-rational mindset. Parsing Rudy Guede's race and finding him victimized by the grotesque crime he so obviously committed is some kind of sick pretzel logic worth no thinking person's time. Welcome to ignore.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

We are done here

That didn't take long now did it.

Because you failed yet again to answer any of my questions, I am through discussing this case with you.

 

[snook1]

I'll tell them, but most don't listen to me.. First off, no DNA doesn't mean they weren't there I'm sure we can agree because you guys want Rudi in that bathroom and in Filomena's room, therefore, why the big stink always with the no Amanda DNA in the murder room? Just saying, you can't have it both ways.

I feel bad for "the real" Sherlock Holmes while reading your posts. You're definitely far away from making good points as of lately and it's something that would not stick with this famous fictional detective.

So, we want Rudy in the bathroom and in Filomena's room even though there is none of his DNA. At the same time, PGP want Amanda and Raffaele in the murder room with no DNA. Do I have to mention that what Guede was doing was breaking in and washing hands and there is a big chance that one would not leave a single speck of DNA while doing it? PGP want us to believe that Knox and Sollecito killed Meredith and left no DNA at all while Guede left pleny of his? Give me a freaking break.

You really should change your nickname or think twice before making any more comments.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I feel bad for "the real" Sherlock Holmes while reading your posts. You're definitely far away from making good points as of lately and it's something that would not stick with this famous fictional detective.

So, we want Rudy in the bathroom and in Filomena's room even though there is none of his DNA. At the same time, PGP want Amanda and Raffaele in the murder room with no DNA. Do I have to mention that what Guede was doing was breaking in and washing hands and there is a big chance that one would not leave a single speck of DNA while doing it? PGP want us to believe that Knox and Sollecito killed Meredith and left no DNA at all while Guede left pleny of his? Give me a freaking break.

You really should change your nickname or think twice before making any more comments.

Yes, just pointing out facts you and your PIP's can't comprehend seems to offend you, there is no need to be rude, if you have no answer then don't answer, we were warned it would get worse once school was out.

 

[Grinder]

I'll tell them, but most don't listen to me.. First off, no DNA doesn't mean they weren't there I'm sure we can agree because you guys want Rudi in that bathroom and in Filomena's room, therefore, why the big stink always with the no Amanda DNA in the murder room? Just saying, you can't have it both ways.

Fine and neither can you guys. No DNA means someone wasn't in the room no matter what the activities were alleged to be in each room.

Therefore Amanda wasn't in the killing room and Rudi wasn't in F's room. Amanda innocent of murder. Rudi innocent of breaking and entry, it was Koko or the other guy with them, the third man.

It seems as if you don't actually read posts that question your theories. There is a huge difference between being in F's room in a outfit of a burglar and being in Meredith's room violently killing her. Rudi did leave abundant amounts of DNA as well as hand prints and shoe prints in Meredith's blood.

I specifically asked about the DNA under her fingernails that would show Amanda had been clawed by Meredith. Could you address that specific? Would you?