Looking for Skeptics

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trustbutverify said:
Stage II: make 100 new recordings; 50 from flaccon's computer, 50 from scrappy's. Both subjects are played each recording randomly and must identify which machine produced each recording. 90%+ success rate indicates possible paranormal activity.
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Good idea. One thing that does occur to me is that each one might be able to identify their own files simply by dint of them being different. Scrappy may have a different method to Flaccon, resulting in artefacts that can uniquely identify their recordings. Or the abient noises might be different at the two locations, again resulting in identification by the recorder. :confused:
 
scrappy said:
Flaccon explained the voices are not recorded and appear distorted after transference .
.
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No. flaccon emphasized repeatedly earlier in the thread that the voices were "unmistakenly" clear. And that there are full sentences. Trying now to add in distortion is just obfuscation.
 
asydhouse said:
Could we all agree on this? Can we skeptics focus on this as the first stage in setting up a test protocol for flacon? We are demanding this sort of focussing of energy and attention from her, after all... shouldn't we set an example?
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Warning: cynicism ahead.

The thread has been set up and already there are numerous posts discussing non-protocol matters. The two threads could be merged with no loss in clarity. The new thread is a waste of bytes.

Furthermore, this chase after a protocol with flaccon or scrappy is not going to happen. We've been after clarity and valid tests for over 60 pages. We've gone 'round and 'round to no avail. Numerous tests from rigorous to informal have been proposed and none have received a decent discussion or follow-up.

This incessant drive to devise a test at this point is a fool's errand. By that I mean we are the fools. Can any of you say with a straight face that there is any hope that flaccon will agree to and implement any test that will have unambiguous results.

Yeah, yeah, the thread has a curiosity charm which keeps me around. But for me at least, that charm is beginning to be overwhelmed by the dishonest, evasive, lying behavior of flaccon and her associated flakes.

ETA: The answer to your last question here is "yes".
 
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tuxcat said:
Good idea. One thing that does occur to me is that each one might be able to identify their own files simply by dint of them being different. Scrappy may have a different method to Flaccon, resulting in artefacts that can uniquely identify their recordings. Or the abient noises might be different at the two locations, again resulting in identification by the recorder. :confused:
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Good points. I think those problems could be easily overcome with a few simple controls. Have a third party make the recordings with exactly the same process. Have the computers moved to the same location for recording.

Stage III: Have flaccon provide 50 old recordings, along with transcripts for each one. Crop each recording to equal time lengths, and randomly shuffle. Provide flaccon with a master sheet of each transcript, and play the shuffled recordings for her. After each playback, flaccon matches the recording to a transcript entry. 90%+ accuracy indicates possible paranormal activity.
 
SezMe said:
Warning: cynicism ahead.

The thread has been set up and already there are numerous posts discussing non-protocol matters. The two threads could be merged with no loss in clarity. The new thread is a waste of bytes.

Furthermore, this chase after a protocol with flaccon or scrappy is not going to happen. We've been after clarity and valid tests for over 60 pages. We've gone 'round and 'round to no avail. Numerous tests from rigorous to informal have been proposed and none have received a decent discussion or follow-up.

This incessant drive to devise a test at this point is a fool's errand. By that I mean we are the fools. Can any of you say with a straight face that there is any hope that flaccon will agree to and implement any test that will have unambiguous results.

Yeah, yeah, the thread has a curiosity charm which keeps me around. But for me at least, that charm is beginning to be overwhelmed by the dishonest, evasive, lying behavior of flaccon and her associated flakes.

ETA: The answer to your last question here is "yes".
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Quite frankly I've lost sincerity. After 60 odd pages we've got nowhere. However when Flaccon gets her internet back on (or has access to it anyway) hopefully we'll all be able to have a chat and see what she's able to come up with vis-a-vis a protocol. If not then perhaps we should abandon it as it's a snipe-hunt without a protocol.

It's a pity as the thread had great promise, but it was spoilt by a lack of progress for various reasons.
 
trustbutverify said:
Good points. I think those problems could be easily overcome with a few simple controls. Have a third party make the recordings with exactly the same process. Have the computers moved to the same location for recording.

Stage III: Have flaccon provide 50 old recordings, along with transcripts for each one. Crop each recording to equal time lengths, and randomly shuffle. Provide flaccon with a master sheet of each transcript, and play the shuffled recordings for her. After each playback, flaccon matches the recording to a transcript entry. 90%+ accuracy indicates possible paranormal activity.
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Ah good idea to protect against that being an issue - I thought that it would be done at their individual residences rather than in a central location where artefacts such as say bird song, traffic noise that may not be present at one person's residence could be eliminated. I've had limited sleep for the last week so my brain's beginning to slow down at last and overlook the obvious.
 
scrappy said:
To Alderbank I have no idea why how you did not hear the full sentence in her fathers tone . The GP has heard words. the priest in Nottingham has heard words . 8 further people have heard words , 3 of which confirm there own fathers voice.
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Oh really?:

Flaccon's sister Carolanne to flaccon: "How can I can help you when I don't believe you?"

Flaccon's sister Sherry to flaccon's daughter: "Your Mother has completely lost it, the voices were set-up along with the art work. Once she's handed over the Ashes, I want nothing more to do with her".

http://www.chapter23.org/Spirits-in-the-Blood.html
 
SezMe said:
The thread has been set up and already there are numerous posts discussing non-protocol matters. The two threads could be merged with no loss in clarity. The new thread is a waste of bytes.

Furthermore, this chase after a protocol with flaccon or scrappy is not going to happen. We've been after clarity and valid tests for over 60 pages. We've gone 'round and 'round to no avail. Numerous tests from rigorous to informal have been proposed and none have received a decent discussion or follow-up.

This incessant drive to devise a test at this point is a fool's errand. By that I mean we are the fools. Can any of you say with a straight face that there is any hope that flaccon will agree to and implement any test that will have unambiguous results.

Yeah, yeah, the thread has a curiosity charm which keeps me around. But for me at least, that charm is beginning to be overwhelmed by the dishonest, evasive, lying behavior of flaccon and her associated flakes.
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This. TBH, this thread so makes me want to violate the MA, I don't post much in it. It ain't worth the yellow cards.
 
My thoughts on the other thread:

I agree that the other thread is not yielding results, because it is ignored by our two protagonists, who seem to prefer the “banter” part of the process.

I don’t think that setting up the thread was a bad idea. It’s conspicuous and could have enticed some talks about a protocol. Or quickly demonstrate that this test is a pipe dream.

While perhaps a bit brash, starting the thread seemed like the best way to split the banter from the protocol negotiations. There are many skeptics participating in this thread and most like to post. I couldn’t see it getting quiet enough to wait for Flaccon to start to cooperate, without us bogging down the thread.

If the thread isn’t working and gets merged with this one, I agree it seems likely the posts will mesh perfectly. But it won’t have been useless (I hope).

Apologies to anyone who feels it was a foolish mistake.
 
With my most sincere apologies to the late Ray Bolger:

We could narrow down the choices
Conferrin' with the voices
The protocol our aim
The steps we would be writin'
At a speed nearly frightenin'
If we only had a claim

We might be a little too formal
Controlling for the normal
To rule out the mundane

Then the audio we would listen
Hope for more than just the hissin'
If we only had a claim

Oh, I would tell you why
Pareidolia's a bore
We imagine things we once heard before
And then we sit and hear some more

We can prove it ain't just nothin'
And flaccon is on to somethin'
It all ain't just a game
We would all praise the spirit
When we can finally hear it
If we only had a claim​
 
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Maurice Ledifficile said:
My thoughts on the other thread:

I agree that the other thread is not yielding results, because it is ignored by our two protagonists, who seem to prefer the “banter” part of the process.

I don’t think that setting up the thread was a bad idea. It’s conspicuous and could have enticed some talks about a protocol. Or quickly demonstrate that this test is a pipe dream.

While perhaps a bit brash, starting the thread seemed like the best way to split the banter from the protocol negotiations. There are many skeptics participating in this thread and most like to post. I couldn’t see it getting quiet enough to wait for Flaccon to start to cooperate, without us bogging down the thread.

If the thread isn’t working and gets merged with this one, I agree it seems likely the posts will mesh perfectly. But it won’t have been useless (I hope).

Apologies to anyone who feels it was a foolish mistake.
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It was a good idea - sadly we are waiting on Flaccon getting her internet back before she'll see the new thread and be able to take part in it. I don't hold much hope in progress but I'd love it if Flaccon proves me wrong. If we're able to keep it on topic as much and reserve this one for banter, it might help keep everyone focussed.

I for one would really like to have the topic completed one way or another - either disproven or proven through a robust protocol as I am genuinely interested in the "paranormal."

It really would be nice if one could really communicate with the departed but I suppose in reality it's best to tell people that you love that you really do love them before they do die as by that time it'll be too late to say all the things you wanted to say.
 
@flaccon,
The fact that you've found another True BelieverTM or four or ten more is not PROOF. The exercise was to find some sort of minimal standards that you and skeptics could agree would prove or disprove that there were actually voices on the playback (tape, recording, file, whatever one wants to call it) and that they were speaking distinctly and clearly in "full sentences" (or to me, at least "full phrases").
That has not been accomplished.

@scrappy,
You're one of the True BelieversTM I mentioned above. Apparently you not only hear the voices but have some of your own. You buy into the demonic possession and the evil spirits that made her sick and destroyed her marriage. How about the chemtrails? UFOs?
Do your spirits also want to contact The Church? And are you coincidentally from a Catholic upbringing?
The fact that you think you hear clear voices and experience miraculous manipulation of files from miles away is, again, nothing in the way of proof. I have no reason to think you're not who you claim you are. I have quite a number of reasons to think that your "evidence" will be a heap of confirmation bias just as flaccon's has thus far proved to be.

So if you guys want to get the messages out from the ghosts in your machines, you need to help devise a way to actually test these effects you're experiencing. I think this is next to impossible because there's that one monkey in the woodpile... You guys claim that upon playback, the spirits can change any response. The pat answer, then, for why we 30 cannot hear what you claim to hear is that the spirits felt like messing with our heads and changed the output again. That claim can be made until the cows come home.

So far, we've had claims shifting all over the landscape. Clear sentences changed to "you've got to listen really carefully over and over". Spirits who said, "Yeah, bring it!" which changed to "we don't do card tricks". Etc....

To return to my "@flaccon" portion... It will not surprise any of us that you can find several civilians, a prelate, a doctor, three French hens, and/or a PhD in astrophysics who are also believers. We've seen lists of credentials that are far more impressive in many fields of woo. What will surprise and impress us is going to be if you agree to a protocol, stick with it and actually produce any results. In case it's not clear, we do not believe as you believe and believing seems to be the single requirement to experience what you're experiencing. If it comes down to that, please just say so and we can all go back to poking sticks at homeopaths and bigfoot hunters.
 
Orphia Nay said:
Oh really?:

Flaccon's sister Carolanne to flaccon: "How can I can help you when I don't believe you?"

Flaccon's sister Sherry to flaccon's daughter: "Your Mother has completely lost it, the voices were set-up along with the art work. Once she's handed over the Ashes, I want nothing more to do with her".
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I read that part as saying that three other, unrelated (to flaccon and themselves) people had heard their own father.
 
SezMe said:
I read that part as saying that three other, unrelated (to flaccon and themselves) people had heard their own father.
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Read what scrappy said again. I don't think he would have said that the way he did if he wasn't including flaccon's sisters in those three.

Flaccon's sisters and her brother have heard her recordings. Only 6 or 7 other people have heard them, besides the 30-odd JREFers who have said they've listened and not heard voices.
 
jsfisher said:
With my most sincere apologies to the late Ray Bolger:

We could narrow down the choices
Conferrin' with the voices
The protocol our aim
The steps we would be writin'
At a speed nearly frightenin'
If we only had a claim

We might be a little too formal
Controlling for the normal
To rule out the mundane

Then the audio we would listen
Hope for more than just the hissin'
If we only had a claim

Oh, I would tell you why
Pareidolia's a bore
We imagine things we once heard before
And then we sit and hear some more

We can prove it ain't just nothin'
And flaccon is on to somethin'
It all ain't just a game
We would all praise the spirit
When we can finally hear it
If we only had a claim​
Click to expand...

Nicely done. :clap:
 
SezMe said:
Absolutely no apologies necessary. It was a good idea and, in some cases, might have been just the thing to move forward. Here? Not so much.
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I agree, it's a good idea but premature. Only when flaccon, or perhaps scrappy, has given a clear indication that they are willing to participate in an objective test and ready to discuss the details will it be worth starting such a thread. So far scrappy has given no such indication and flaccon has flatly refused, on the grounds that the spirits consider such testing beneath them.
 
Tracy is going to find a hot spot some time this week . Tracy initially offered to hire a private room for discussions and tests . The test involving the 50 recordings suggested by Trustbutverfy is very acceptable . Post 2045 .
 
To pixel42 . Tracy did;nt refuse , the spirits did . Tracy is willing to sort out a few hundred files and she will identify every one if necessary .
 
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