Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

the causes of bruising

I agree that restraint can cause bruising (and transfer of DNA), but why does the bruising necessarily result from restraint? Could it not also be that she was thrown/knocked down?

 

[christianahannah]

~snipping out part of quote by Grinder in this post and being a bit lazy in not quoting previous post where he challenges answers me~

ETA - Ah no, Volturno asked about both of them on the 19th well after their account of being in until 10:30 was widely known in the Italian press

I'm not certain about being widely known in the Italian press. It would have to be determined if Quintavalle read this particular paper, if all this statement was in print, and what other papers carried the details of this statement. (We know he read a paper though I think he would have read the Italian rather than English version; http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml).

And you are correct, Volturno did ask about both of them, however, I think he may have been more set upon the bleach buying angle and perhaps stressed that more.

I can come up with a conversation and thoughts which could explain Quintavalle's quietness but I hesitate to do so because I prefer facts that I know to those I make up in my mind (however similar those facts in my mind may be to the truth).

So I read the testimony of the various witnesses and the opinion of the various courts and hope that will be close to the truth as they know it, remembering that these witnesses have testified under oath and that hopefully they all take that oath seriously.

I will say, as I have a long time ago, that if I were a juror (or judge), none of what Quintavalle testified to would convince me of Amanda's or Raffaele's guilt. I just don't like calling anyone a liar or impugning their motives unless I have the facts that they did either. Even if they are not a member of this forum.

 

[Grinder]

Are you responding to my comments about the appearance of the bruising and how it looks like a frontal hold on the neck or not? You also avoided the bruising indicating restraint of both elbows. The arguing could have been Amanda and Guede. The witness heard something that was not in the parking lot but lower near the cottage. Ciolino should have had the window open to hear the footsteps as loud as Capezzeli did as she leaned out hers.

Monacchia reported people arguing speaking Italian without accents - Amanda was at most a beginning Italian speaker with an American accent at worst she could really speak enough to argue.

Nara never reported opening the window and that is something Mignini clearly would have brought out. I'd get you a quote but you'd just ignore it like every time you are shown to be wrong.

Why didn't Nara call the police immediately? Why didn't she call them the next day? How could she not notice the time between getting up, going to the toilet and making herself tea after hearing the most terrifying scream of her life?

 

[Grinder]

Why does the bruising necessarily result from restraint? Could it not also be that she was thrown/knocked down?

I have no expertise in this field at all. It seems that Rudi could have grabbed her by the arms and thrown her down before choking her and then stabbing her. Or it could have been his Albanian accomplice.

 

[RoseMontague]

Where are these photos posted?

RWVVWL posted a link upthread from perugia shock's archives. Is this really the first time they have been posted? As difficult as it was to view them I agree with Frank's opinion at the time , evidence of multiple assailants and staging.

I am surprised that Frank had posted these, I wonder if this capture was done at some point and then he took them down later because I don't recall seeing them on his blog in the past. In any case, I am not sure even posting the links is a good idea, it just doesn't feel right to me.

Just my opinion.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

RWVVWL posted a link upthread from perugia shock's archives. Is this really the first time they have been posted? As difficult as it was to view them I agree with Frank's opinion at the time , evidence of multiple assailants and staging.

OK, I remember this now. This is the only leak of autopsy photos I know about.

Frank is summarizing from a police report submitted to the court. They speculate freely, but they can't come up with anything that really points to multiple attackers, because it's not there. The obvious explanation is that her left hand was bloody because she pressed it to her wounds, and her right hand had defensive cuts because she tried to push his right hand away. She wouldn't have been able to do that if multiple attackers had her arms pinned as they suggest.

Nor was anything staged. Rifling a purse after killing someone is not staging.

But, you're going to believe what you want, and nothing will penetrate that wall.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not certain about being widely known in the Italian press. It would have to be determined if Quintavalle read this particular paper, if all this statement was in print, and what other papers carried the details of this statement. (We know he read a paper though I think he would have read the Italian rather than English version; http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_07/meredith_verbali_sarzanini.shtml).

I gave you the Italian paper that reported on the 7th that the kids said they were not up until after 10:30.

And you are correct, Volturno did ask about both of them, however, I think he may have been more set upon the bleach buying angle and perhaps stressed that more.

Dear god where is the sanity? Quintavalle when he came out of the closet said she went to the section of the store where cleaning supplies were kept. He knew that Raf and Amanda had been arrested and the cop is asking if he saw them buying bleach and he is going to avoid saying she was there at 7:45 with her stunning blue eyes?

I can come up with a conversation and thoughts which could explain Quintavalle's quietness but I hesitate to do so because I prefer facts that I know to those I make up in my mind (however similar those facts in my mind may be to the truth).

Well we actually have Volturno's account but maybe you and BW can write a better script.

So I read the testimony of the various witnesses and the opinion of the various courts and hope that will be close to the truth as they know it, remembering that these witnesses have testified under oath and that hopefully they all take that oath seriously.

Even if you believe them, they didn't witness anything. Nara heard a scream, so what? She said she heard footsteps but didn't see anything. Dramis came along after Nara was on TV and said she heard some foot steps but not on the stairs. She also saw nothing. Monacchia heard a couple arguing in well spoken Italian. None of them can point a finger at the kids.

I will say, as I have a long time ago, that if I were a juror (or judge), none of what Quintavalle testified to would convince me of Amanda's or Raffaele's guilt. I just don't like calling anyone a liar or impugning their motives unless I have the facts that they did either. Even if they are not a member of this forum.

I hesitate to call people liars as well, but in his case I do and I think Volturno made it clear he thought Q was lying as well.

Do you need that Italian news account again? You speak Italian why don't you search using the dates of 11-5-2007 and 11-18-2007 and see what was written.

here it is again - I'm sure there are many many articles in that time frame

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2007/11_Novembre/07/perudia_murder.shtml

 

[anglolawyer]

I have no expertise in this field at all. It seems that Rudi could have grabbed her by the arms and thrown her down before choking her and then stabbing her. Or it could have been his Albanian accomplice.

But at least you realise it's an area in which expertise is required. I am not sure everyone posting here understands that.

 

[Bill Williams]

Why does the bruising necessarily result from restraint? Could it not also be that she was thrown/knocked down?

I have no expertise in this field at all. It seems that Rudi could have grabbed her by the arms and thrown her down before choking her and then stabbing her. Or it could have been his Albanian accomplice.

But at least you realise it's an area in which expertise is required. I am not sure everyone posting here understands that.

We all have enough expertise to be a juror, so chosen precisely because we represent the community of peers, rather than anyone with any particular expertise.

While fellow juror Briars is showing everyone his Italian landscapes as a way to understand bruising, what I'd want to know is why this alleged restraint did not lead to DNA transfer? I mean, Massei makes a big deal about the reason why he found that Knox's "biological material" was mixed with Meredith's blood (rather than from the sloppy collection method on wide swab swaths!).....

...... was because when Knox supposedly cleaned the blood off of herself, her skin cells, hair or whatever came off into someone else's blood.

Why would not Massei apply this same reasoning to firm grasp of restraint? I don't know.... should it?

(Yes, yes, Briars, that landscape is wonderful.... and no, please stop with the tears, I am not accusing you of being thoughtless or being confirmationed-biased.... we're here discussing DNA transfer as lay people, and you are showing us the Tuscany Hills.... sorry, the Perugian hills.... yes I got that wrong, but what in the name of tarnation does this have to do with DNA transfer? Yes, Briars, I know you're sensitive and I won't yell at you again, yes, I know, you're sensitive this way.... Bailiff! Bailiff! GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!)

 

[RoseMontague]

Forty Creek Port Wood Reserve

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA and sexual assault cases

From a British website, a discussion of forensic DNA and bruising:
Quote
• DNA from skin to skin contact (eg on bruises, or from kissing) can be detected up to 2 days. This includes detection of body fluids, cellular material and lubricant. If by chance, the person has not bathed or showered then the Forensic Science service say that the relevant area can be swabbed up to 7 days after the incident
• Fingernail scrapings - 2 days
• Oral (saliva and mouth swabs) - 2 days
• Lubricant from a condom - up to 30 hours
End Quote
EDT
I don't recall whether or not Meredith's fingernails were tested for DNA.

 

[Grinder]

We all have enough expertise to be a juror, so chosen precisely because we represent the community of peers, rather than anyone with any particular expertise.

We all do have enough expertise to be jurors but not enough to create our own forensic analysis of how a murder occurred. I for one think that some of the analysis today, read DNA and luminol/TMB testing, go beyond reasonable expectations for jurors to be able to pick which expert to believe. I liked Hellmann bringing in the independent experts and I think he should be able to rely on them to a large extent.

I would like to see experts be given the information and make a blind analysis, that is, not knowing the case.

While fellow juror Briars is showing everyone his Italian landscapes as a way to understand bruising, what I'd want to know is why this alleged restraint did not lead to DNA transfer? I mean, Massei makes a big deal about the reason why he found that Knox's "biological material" was mixed with Meredith's blood (rather than from the sloppy collection method on wide swab swaths!).....

(Yes, yes, Briars, that landscape is wonderful.... and no, please stop with the tears, I am not accusing you of being thoughtless or being confirmationed-biased.... we're here discussing DNA transfer as lay people, and you are showing us the Tuscany Hills.... sorry, the Perugian hills.... yes I got that wrong, but what in the name of tarnation does this have to do with DNA transfer? Yes, Briars, I know you're sensitive and I won't yell at you again, yes, I know, you're sensitive this way.... Bailiff! Bailiff! GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!)

I think that was about sound travel which some of us have been discussing.

Doesn't seem that sensitive...I would say stubborn

 

[Briars]

Monacchia reported people arguing speaking Italian without accents - Amanda was at most a beginning Italian speaker with an American accent at worst she could really speak enough to argue.

Nara never reported opening the window and that is something Mignini clearly would have brought out. I'd get you a quote but you'd just ignore it like every time you are shown to be wrong.

Why didn't Nara call the police immediately? Why didn't she call them the next day? How could she not notice the time between getting up, going to the toilet and making herself tea after hearing the most terrifying scream of her life?

Who checks the time when they go to the toilet or when they make a tea. Did she realize a murder had been committed at that point or even a crime? No she said she looked out the window and listened . I've woken up heard yelling out my window listened for further trouble then assumed it was teens or something.Checking the time doesn't seem necessary. The fact that it was just a scream and not prolonged screaming meant she had to assess in her mind what she might have heard in those seconds and assume that it was over and hope it was just a scream and not serious.

 

[Briars]

Kokomani was there when the tow truck broke down , he saw the defendants and I believe he knows something and hides behind a story no one could believe. I just imagine the connection was drugs.

 

[Briars]

I questioned whether to post pictures of my place for fear that if might be taken as bragging. I don't go on about my credential so I hoped it would be acceptable. It seems what I know about the double pane Italian windows sound and the valley falls on deaf ears. Take heart Bill the property was purchased years ago for very little. You should trust what I say about the sound carrying up through the valley to the bedroom window as I'm not Italian.

 

[Bill Williams]

Who checks the time when they go to the toilet or when they make a tea. Did she realize a murder had been committed at that point or even a crime? No she said she looked out the window and listened . I've woken up heard yelling out my window listened for further trouble then assumed it was teens or something.Checking the time doesn't seem necessary. The fact that it was just a scream and not prolonged screaming meant she had to assess in her mind what she might have heard in those seconds and assume that it was over and hope it was just a scream and not serious.

Double standard alert! Yet Knox and Sollecito at interrogation are expected to remember precise details of a night 4 days' previous.

Just thought I'd point this out.

 

[Bill Williams]

I questioned whether to post pictures of my place for fear that if might be taken as bragging. I don't go on about my credential so I hoped it would be acceptable. It seems what I know about the double pane Italian windows sound and the valley falls on deaf ears. Take heart Bill the property was purchased years ago for very little. You should trust what I say about the sound carrying up through the valley to the bedroom window as I'm not Italian.

Why didn't you tell me that you are not Italian. I am reversing my stand on this and now agree with you. You are not Italian.

Apologies for disagreeing with you before.

 

[Bill Williams]

Kokomani was there when the tow truck broke down , he saw the defendants and I believe he knows something and hides behind a story no one could believe. I just imagine the connection was drugs.

You should be careful what you imagine. They ask you to do that at interrogation sometimes. It's better to take your right to silence, and don't pay any attention to threats or slaps to the head.

 

[Bill Williams]

We all do have enough expertise to be jurors but not enough to create our own forensic analysis of how a murder occurred.

True. Yet after all the fancy stuff is explained, it still remains the jury of peers and "non-experts" to decide. The mark of a true "expert" is the ability to put it into laypersons' terms.

I realize it's only slightly related, but I still think of the words of Juror #5 in The Central Park Five. This guy did not have much of an education, but he seemed to have a keen eye for detail. As he said, his only fault, really, was caving in to the majority, and 13 years later found out he'd been the last sensible man connected to adjudicating the case. And he let himself get bamboozled after 13 days....

I'm trying to thing of a Latin term for "bamboozled." I guess it ended up nem. com. when someone should have.

 

[Briars]

You should be careful what you imagine. They ask you to do that at interrogation sometimes. It's better to take your right to silence, and don't pay any attention to threats or slaps to the head.

Yes well the slaps were imagined Donnino said so. I don't imagine her to be a liar. Why do you think Kokomani might be near the cottage and why implicate the defendants then leave Perugia?