Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Antony]

.
It seems to me the reason the Supreme Court is not supposed to rule on evidence, is because they did not sit in on the trial and consequently are not qualified to determine which evidence and testimony is reliable and which is not.
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Exactly. Plus it brings back the matter of Double Jeopardy which supposedly doesn't apply because the SC is restricted to considering points of law.

It should have been an alarm signal that the prosecution spent their time in the SC hearing going over their own evidence. Ironic that in the Hellman appeal hearing, IIRC, they didn't bother with the evidence but devoted all their time to attacking Amanda's character.

 

[anglolawyer]

.
Two claimed they heard a scream. One reported it a month later, but in court said it was Halloween day (not the day of the murder), the other reported it a year later and said it was preceded by a man and a woman shouting at each other in Italian with no discernable (non Italian) accent. Both reported times after 10 pm. Have to run, my computer keeps crashing.
.

So, by Italian standards, rock solid evidence Hope your computer gets fixed.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Hellmann's view of the facts

Nice to see there is at least one honest Italian not afraid to state the facts and speak the truth.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Court-violating-law-overturning-decision.html

Even Pisa kinda gets it.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...ng-verdict-8676215.html#.Ucxeyel7PVg.facebook

Judge Hellmann said, "Italy is a country that convicts where there is proof beyond all reasonable doubt. In this case there were only slim possibilities that they were both involved, and when you hold a trial you are not playing the lottery."

 

[GreyFox]

Regardless of what side your on...The judges in Italy do not agree on the verdicts in this case that has dragged on since 07 . How will they ever come up with a verdict beyond reasonable doubt? It just shows how weak the case is against the 2.

How can Mach say Hellman is a mason and was paid off. If your telling me that your court system has these problems then I would say no verdict is true in Italy. How can anyone trust your system when you say some Judges are good and some arent based upon convienence.

How many years does it take to prove this case. I would say after 6yrs that there obviously isnt going to be enough to prove it out. Because there just isnt any evidence there other than Guedes. They would have to plant more evidence at this point or let it go and accept that Rudys bloody hand prints on Merideth's purse tell the story PGP just cannot accept.

 

[Grinder]

With the blood curdling scream echoing around the valleys of Umbria, penetrating walls and closed windows, how come only three (was it three?) people heard it. Why not fifty? Did the police go house to house to identify other ear witnesses? They might have found one with a watch.

And no one that was familiar with Amanda or Raf saw them out and about during the 2 1/2 hours they were going from Raf's to the piazza to the cottage back to the piazza back to Raf's maybe back to the cottage for the cleanup. Not one person that knew them by sight, not close friends, just neighbors.

Of all the people in Perugia look at the ones they found that saw anything and note when they came forward.

For anybody that doubts the minutes of fame just think that we know the names of Nara, Monacchia, Quintavalle, Dramis and Curatolo.

It is clear to me that Dramis totally came out after seeing the attention Nara, her neighbor, received for hearing the scream and footsteps.

 

[anglolawyer]

And no one that was familiar with Amanda or Raf saw them out and about during the 2 1/2 hours they were going from Raf's to the piazza to the cottage back to the piazza back to Raf's maybe back to the cottage for the cleanup. Not one person that knew them by sight, not close friends, just neighbors.

snip

And I have read down the bunny hole that Raffaele must have known Rudy because they only lived round the corner from each other and Perugia is so teensy weensy that everyone knows everyone else. It follows Raffaele must also know everyone along Corso Garibaldi and they him and that he must have gone out in disguise that night, perhaps dressed inconspicuously as Jack the Ripper or Tutankhamen (mummified version) because none but Toto saw him or his girl.

It's funny to think of all the things the cops didn't do in this case: retrieve clothes, search for glass, hunt down witnesses in a timely fashion etc etc. It suggests breathtaking incompetence at least. I suggest that an incompetent person generally has good reason to be corrupt also, even if only to the extent necessary to conceal their incompetence.

 

[Grinder]

I think that the witnesses should be tried for calumnia.

I can't believe that Briars et al. of the PG POV won't bring themselves to admit the huge issues with the witnesses.

They have issue with Q being questioned a few days after the murder, they are shown that it was really 17 days later.

They have issue with what was published before his interview and they are shown that by the 7th details of Amanda's account, including that she wasn't up until 10:30, were in the public record, yet Q didn't think he should mention to Volturno that Amanda had been at his food store at 7:45. While all kinds of detail were out within hours, the PGP doubt that in a year the reporter would know what clothes were found on the bed. If I knew Italian I bet I could find an article listing the clothes. Remember the SC said they had faith in his testimony because of her blue eyes which was widely reported in Italian. It's an embarrassing joke, yet our PG types can't bring themselves to say that the witnesses are at best weak and at worst evil liars.

Nara as has been known for years didn't remember the date well because she testified of knowing before the discovery. That was minor but she knew no times after going to bed and never came forward for months. Dramis total nothing: "I heard footsteps". Monacchia heard two Italians arguing

Curatolo a junkie that got the day wrong, changed the times when poked by Mignini, admitted being high on heroin, supported a daily habit while sitting on bench all day (under assistant West Coast promo man) and night, somehow (dealing as per the outstanding charge?).

Really? Come you guys on the PG side and admit these people's testimony is a joke. The more normal people from Rome in the car saw nothing. Nobody that were familiar with the kids saw them from 8:45 until after noon the next day. No video from any camera, public or private, was ever produced.

 

[Grinder]

And I have read down the bunny hole that Raffaele must have known Rudy because they only lived round the corner from each other and Perugia is so teensy weensy that everyone knows everyone else. It follows Raffaele must also know everyone along Corso Garibaldi and they him and that he must have gone out in disguise that night, perhaps dressed inconspicuously as Jack the Ripper or Tutankhamen (mummified version) because none but Toto saw him or his girl.

Yes, Mudede claimed that he "knew" everyone within a few days. I believe there were people that hung out near Raf's and for the PGP that argue the town was closed for the holiday, we have the diners that bumped into Rudi at 10:15-30. Restaurants were open. The kebab stand was open. People were working in the piazza. City buses were running.

It's funny to think of all the things the cops didn't do in this case: retrieve clothes, search for glass, hunt down witnesses in a timely fashion etc etc. It suggests breathtaking incompetence at least. I suggest that an incompetent person generally has good reason to be corrupt also, even if only to the extent necessary to conceal their incompetence.

But that doesn't mean they deleted Patrick's text the night of the 5th but they could have.

 

[anglolawyer]

snip

But that doesn't mean they deleted Patrick's text the night of the 5th but they could have.

Right! That's it. No more mentioning De Felice's 'they crumbled' remark in this thread without also mentioning this:

[De Felice] said Knox's claims that she was elsewhere had been demonstrated to be false. The police found text messages on her phone from Lumumba, fixing a meeting between them at 8.35pm on the night Miss Kercher died.

 

[Briars]

So,
with the recent Italian Supreme Court ruling,
I am trying to keep an open mind...

Supposedly,
"Foxy Knoxy" invited her boyfriend of 7 days, Raff
+ a virtual stranger, The Guide-O, to join her in a sex-game gone wrong,
with Meredith Kercher as the object of desire.

I don't know about you ,
but when I view photographs of Meredith's bedroom,
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img812/1929/rlm4.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img856/2416/8g7e.jpg[/qimg]


I wonder why Amanda Knox did not leave any DNA, fingerprints, palmprints, shoeprints or footprints inside Meredith's bedroom.

Rudy Guede sure did!

Supposedly,
Meredith screamed really loud as she was slain.
I would imagine that Rudy+Raff, in the prosecutions theory, were restraining Mez's arms during this sex game gone wrong, right?

It seems like she had a few bruises on her:
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img20/8157/4vhp.jpg[/qimg]


Here's a link to some of Meredith's injuries before she died soooo horribly,
be warned, the pix are gnarly:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110504...logspot.com/2008/10/pointing-at-murderer.html


I need to know,
who was coverin' Meredith's mouth so she didn't scream?
If The Scream is to be believed,
that person totally screwed up...


But I gotsta say,
however this brutal murder went down,
I find it very odd that there is no proof, such as seen below,
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img827/320/f6en.jpg[/qimg]

that a clean-up or wipe-down happened in Meredith's bedroom.
Heck, I don't see a wiped smear anywhere in Mez's bedroom.

Do you?

How did "Foxy Knoxy" remove every single trace of her presence in Meredith's bedroom?

Weird...
RW


PS-Photo's are from The Old Perugia Shock.
Dig around, you too can open your mind to The Truth...
Peace...

I have never seen the photos of Meredith's injuries. Were these posted by Frank before he switched sides? The bruising on both elbows ,the lack of defense wounds . the extent of her injuries and the obvious staging lead him to think... Multiple assailants. Has he resurfaced for further comment?

 

[Grinder]

Right! That's it. No more mentioning De Felice's 'they crumbled' remark in this thread without also mentioning this:

Now my quote was widely reported while yours comes from one reporter that was shipped out to Siberia China.

 

[anglolawyer]

Now my quote was widely reported while yours comes from one reporter that was shipped out to Siberia China.

Right. Because he knew too much!

 

[anglolawyer]

I have never seen the photos of Meredith's injuries. Were these posted by Frank before he switched sides? The bruising on both elbows ,the lack of defense wounds . the extent of her injuries and the obvious staging lead him to think... Multiple assailants. Has he resurfaced for further comment?

Scream. Briars - have you actually read Massei? Do you know what the consensus of the forensic scientists was about multiple attackers?

 

[Bill Williams]

I think that the witnesses should be tried for calumnia.

I can't believe that Briars et al. of the PG POV won't bring themselves to admit the huge issues with the witnesses.

They have issue with Q being questioned a few days after the murder, they are shown that it was really 17 days later.

<........... sinister deletia ............>​

Really? Come you guys on the PG side and admit these people's testimony is a joke. The more normal people from Rome in the car saw nothing. Nobody that were familiar with the kids saw them from 8:45 until after noon the next day. No video from any camera, public or private, was ever produced.

But all this would interfere with the premise conclusion that the two students were guilty.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

John Douglas on the crime scene

I have never seen the photos of Meredith's injuries. Were these posted by Frank before he switched sides? The bruising on both elbows ,the lack of defense wounds . the extent of her injuries and the obvious staging lead him to think... Multiple assailants. Has he resurfaced for further comment?

And yet the experts who testified at the trial did not say, on the basis of her wounds, that there were necessarily several assailant (IIRC they indicated it could be one or several). I have never understood why the cuts on Meredith's hands could be reconciled with the supposed "lack of defensive wounds."

On top of that John Douglas and Mark Olshaker wrote, "Moreover, for any well-trained and experienced homicide investigator or an FBI profiler, determining whether a crime scene represents one or multiple offenders is one of the most basic skills. Few scenes are ambiguous on this point, and this was not one of those." I posted this a few days ago.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have never seen the photos of Meredith's injuries. Were these posted by Frank before he switched sides? The bruising on both elbows ,the lack of defense wounds . the extent of her injuries and the obvious staging lead him to think... Multiple assailants. Has he resurfaced for further comment?

Scream. Briars - have you actually read Massei? Do you know what the consensus of the forensic scientists was about multiple attackers?

It should be mandatory for everyone to read Massei's motivations report. I truly believe that only PIP people have actually read the thing.

The only fact finding courts in the process regarding AK and RS have found that it could have been multiple assailants, and then again the evidence does not necessitate it. Massei found for multiple assailant chief because he convicted two people - by definition "multiple".

Rudy's court found for multiple assailants chiefly because never defence nor prosecution in that fast track trial argued otherwise. Hellmann's court, now reversed, argued that it was not up to it to rule on multiple attackers, only on the factuality of AK and RS's involvement. (Andrea Vogt, competent journalist that she was on this, never retract her story that Ridy's court found as factual AK and RS's involvement.)

As logical as that sounds, the ISC has muddied the waters. What is it that the Florence Court is now directed to find? And what is the ISC doing anyway ruling on matters of factuality? In essence, there's nothing, really, contrary about Hellmann's acquittals and Rudy's findings. All Hellmann said, really, was "if there were others, they were not AK and RS."

 

[platonov]

What keeps the cartwheel spinning??

A couple of options have appeared recently.

......

From what I have been reading, it doesn't sound like a damn thing discussed here will even matter to the Italian Courts. It's really astonishing.

Either everything we PIP have been lead to believe is completely wrong or there is amazing travesty of justice going on here

and

.................

People make up all sorts of nonsense just for attention

Can’t decide which

ETA Is it really astonishing ?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

two for one deal

Gabrielle Banks wrote, "More than 200 people falsely confessed to kidnapping Charles Lindbergh's baby in 1932, about 50 falsely claimed to have slain the Black Dahlia (1940s film star Elizabeth Short) and several falsely confessed to killing O.J. Simpson's estranged wife Nicole Brown Simpson." People do make up all sorts of stuff for attention, and people do falsely confess. Go figure.

 

[codyjuneau]

It should be mandatory for everyone to read Massei's motivations report. I truly believe that only PIP people have actually read the thing.

The only fact finding courts in the process regarding AK and RS have found that it could have been multiple assailants, and then again the evidence does not necessitate it. Massei found for multiple assailant chief because he convicted two people - by definition "multiple".

Rudy's court found for multiple assailants chiefly because never defence nor prosecution in that fast track trial argued otherwise. Hellmann's court, now reversed, argued that it was not up to it to rule on multiple attackers, only on the factuality of AK and RS's involvement. (Andrea Vogt, competent journalist that she was on this, never retract her story that Ridy's court found as factual AK and RS's involvement.)

As logical as that sounds, the ISC has muddied the waters. What is it that the Florence Court is now directed to find? And what is the ISC doing anyway ruling on matters of factuality? In essence, there's nothing, really, contrary about Hellmann's acquittals and Rudy's findings. All Hellmann said, really, was "if there were others, they were not AK and RS."

.
Exactly, and if the Supreme Court want to resolve the single/multiple attackers issue they should have honored the Appeals Courts decision, accepted that Raffaele and Amanda were not involved, and instructed Florence to carry out further investigation to determine who,if anybody, besides Rudy, was involved.

Instead they have ensured that if there were other people involved, they will not be found because the justice system will continue to obsess on Raffaele and Amanda for several more years. Meanwhile the Kerchers get no answers.
.

 

[Bill Williams]

Gabrielle Banks wrote, "More than 200 people falsely confessed to kidnapping Charles Lindbergh's baby in 1932, about 50 falsely claimed to have slain the Black Dahlia (1940s film star Elizabeth Short) and several falsely confessed to killing O.J. Simpson's estranged wife Nicole Brown Simpson." People do make up all sorts of stuff for attention, and people do falsely confess. Go figure.

This is my bias based on some very conspiratorial thinking.

I think the reason why there were not more people in Perugia who came forward with stories, looney or otherwise, is that they knew what they were getting into by getting messed up with this - perhaps messed up at all with Italian law enforcement.

No wonder the police had to find out about Nara from television. Her 48 Hours segment showed that she wasn't terribly thrilled to be part of this.

Filomena herself by lawyering up, saved herself all sort of issues. Then again, she lawyered up initially not because of the murder per se, but because she was afraid she was going to be stuck with the rent of the place, even behind police lines. Who knows if she, or any others, were subtly threatened with precautionary detention for some reason or other... just to make the connection between "cooperation" and her potential "liberty".

Because of her background, they may not have put it to her like they did with a naive foreigner like Amanda, but Filomena would be able to read those tea-leaves. Why do you think she said at testimony about her own drug use, "Yes, I have sinned"?

You see the issue is, like the 200 for Lindbergh, why weren't there more? Why did it take journalists hunting for a manufactured story to be pulling these people out of the weeds a year later?

We here are advised when travelling in Mexico, and we see a traffic accident where there is serious injury or death, to simply walk past, go to the hotel, and literally perhaps go to the airport and fly home. Why? Because even witnesses in Mexico can be held for 3 months just to be available to give evidence in a serious case.

I am not sure about Italy, but given the powers which Mignini exercised in getting both Raffaele and Amanda locked up and in solitary before anyone knew what was happening, really, do you think that Italians were chomping at the bit to get involved?