Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

I haven't heard this mentioned but the high humidity that night 68% facilitates sound travel.

Maybe the reason you haven't heard it is that it simply is not true. Do you believe that it would be true because you want it to be true because it supports your argument? That seems to be the way of the PGP.

http://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm

Dan O. The formula actually shows less damping of air as humidity increases. Water vapor is lighter than air. Sound travels faster and there is less damping of sound in higher humidity.

 

[Briars]

I'm posting a few photos of my holiday home in Italy as an example of what I know to be true about Italian windows, sound and valleys. My place overlooks a low area much like the cottage with hills on either side.Actually we are even higher up. You can see the parking lot and the farm down the hill. We have to close the windows at night to muffle sounds by cars returning to the parking lot. A typical night sound will be dogs barking in the distance from the farm below and we can even hear shots from hunters in the hills. Believe me these are sounds thatwould pale to that of a loud scream. Walls three feet thick but sound carries even with windows and shutters closed when you face that kind of terrain.

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm posting a few photos of my holiday home in Italy as an example of what I know to be true about Italian windows, sound and valleys. My place overlooks a low area much like the cottage with hills on either side.Actually we are even higher up. You can see the parking lot and the farm down the hill. We have to close the windows at night to muffle sounds by cars returning to the parking lot. A typical night sound will be dogs barking in the distance from the farm below and we can even hear shots from hunters in the hills. Believe me these are sounds thatwould pale to that of a loud scream. Walls three feet thick but sound carries even with windows and shutters closed when you face that kind of terrain.

Briars... please be cautious about posting biographical information about yourself. You have no need to use personal information to make your points.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan O. The formula actually shows less damping of air as humidity increases. Water vapor is lighter than air. Sound travels faster and there is less damping of sound in higher humidity.

I linked to the calculator so you could run the numbers for yourself and show if the difference was significant. Try comparing 5% RH to 65% RH for some nominal Temprature and frequency

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm posting a few photos of my holiday home in Italy as an example of what I know to be true about Italian windows, sound and valleys. My place overlooks a low area much like the cottage with hills on either side.Actually we are even higher up. You can see the parking lot and the farm down the hill. We have to close the windows at night to muffle sounds by cars returning to the parking lot. A typical night sound will be dogs barking in the distance from the farm below and we can even hear shots from hunters in the hills. Believe me these are sounds that would pale to that of a loud scream. Walls three feet thick but sound carries even with windows and shutters closed when you face that kind of terrain.

Very nice. I can't see the sound but the view is awesome.

 

[RoseMontague]

I linked to the calculator so you could run the numbers for yourself and show if the difference was significant. Try comparing 5% RH to 65% RH for some nominal Temprature and frequency

Yes. Atmospheric absorption goes down as humidity goes up. Which is what I said.

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm posting a few photos of my holiday home in Italy as an example of what I know to be true about Italian windows, sound and valleys. My place overlooks a low area much like the cottage with hills on either side.Actually we are even higher up. You can see the parking lot and the farm down the hill. We have to close the windows at night to muffle sounds by cars returning to the parking lot. A typical night sound will be dogs barking in the distance from the farm below and we can even hear shots from hunters in the hills. Believe me these are sounds that would pale to that of a loud scream. Walls three feet thick but sound carries even with windows and shutters closed when you face that kind of terrain.

Very nice. I can't see the sound but the view is awesome.

You are very bad, RoseM!

Yet when "view" is all important, Machiavelli will argue with the pictures which show the balcony completely exposed to the street and apartments across the street, lit by a street lamp. The pictures also clearly show the relative stealth affording one enter in Filomena's window's side of the building, Filomena's window being a natural because a cat burglar is already at shoulder height when standing on the window grate below.

Let's agree on at least one thing. When agruing about the view something has - pictures count.

When arguing about relative humidity and sound, barometers and.... heck, what's a scientist called who studies sound-travel as it relates to humidity?

Maybe Machiavelli will reappear with that on his C.V., too!!

 

[Dan O.]

Yes. Atmospheric absorption goes down as humidity goes up. Which is what I said.

And what I said, using specific numbers at 20°C, 10kHz with 65%RH the atmospheric damping is 0.125 dB/m. But at 5%RH the damping is only 0.083dB/m.

 

[Briars]

Briars... please be cautious about posting biographical information about yourself. You have no need to use personal information to make your points.

Yes well I have little worry about the location of my place being discovered actually. But you are right I should be cautious. Unlike others I don't post my credentials but thought this might help you to understand that I have reasons for my opinions based on experiences.

 

[RoseMontague]

And what I said, using specific numbers at 20°C, 10kHz with 65%RH the atmospheric damping is 0.125 dB/m. But at 5%RH the damping is only 0.083dB/m.

Try 65RH and 40RH in your calculator. What do you see then?

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes well I have little worry about the location of my place being discovered actually. But you are right I should be cautious. Unlike others I don't post my credentials but thought this might help you to understand that I have reasons for my opinions based on experiences.

You mean 'listening'. I don't see your having a place on a hill in Italy makes you some kind of expert. When I read your posts I imagine what it might be like being in a jury room with you. 'But I have a house on a hill in Italy. I know how sound carries'. Please Briars, don't be so ridiculous. You are like Mach: you are keeping Nara but amending her evidence just like he (you too) keeps Toto with amendments. You know they did it. Evidence be damned.

 

[Dan O.]

I'm posting a few photos of my holiday home in Italy as an example of what I know to be true about Italian windows, sound and valleys. My place overlooks a low area much like the cottage with hills on either side.Actually we are even higher up. You can see the parking lot and the farm down the hill. We have to close the windows at night to muffle sounds by cars returning to the parking lot. A typical night sound will be dogs barking in the distance from the farm below and we can even hear shots from hunters in the hills. Believe me these are sounds thatwould pale to that of a loud scream. Walls three feet thick but sound carries even with windows and shutters closed when you face that kind of terrain.

I never denied that sound can travel. What is at issue is getting sound to reverse direction from Meredith's bedroom window for it to reach Nara's flat. Flat walls and especially inside corners where walls meet are the best to reflect sound off. There is none of that out Meredith's window, just trees and the ground sloping away.



This fox was barking at it's echo off a distant house.

 

[codyjuneau]

I haven't seen the film, but I'd be interested in knowing how long a typical judge would require a jury to keep deliberating before he declares that it's hung. If the judge says "You're not getting out of here until you reach a verdict," the situation becomes a lot like a coercive interrogation. For that matter, when does the defense get to say "The jury obviously holds reasonable doubt; this can't go on forever." Wouldn't a guilty verdict given under those circumstances be grounds for appeal?

.
That's exactly the thought I had Bob. People cave. One person holding an opinion, even if true, is going to have a hard time holding out against all the others. Oddly it is exactly the kind of thing that happens during a police interrogation. With no hope of convincing the police that what you are saying is true, and no hope of escaping from the situation, people cave.

Like I said before, people do it all the time. The smoker caves in order to have the cigarette which will probably give him or her cancer, the alcholic caves to get the drink that will put him back on skid row, the gambler caves to get the betting high that will cost him his life's fortune. There are so many real life examples. We see them all the time. We shake our heads but we don't deny they happen. False confessions are the same, just not as common or familiar to us.

Like Bill says, watch the Central Park Five. If you are human and have empathy it will make you mad. And it will give you insights into false confessions and confirmation bias.
It does not mean all confessions are false of course, but it will demonstrate how easily they can happen.

And really, does anybody on this forum believe Mignini's multiple and contradictory explanations for the missing recordings of Raffaele, Amanda, AND Lumumba. Hands up those who do.
.

 

[codyjuneau]

I never denied that sound can travel. What is at issue is getting sound to reverse direction from Meredith's bedroom window for it to reach Nara's flat. Flat walls and especially inside corners where walls meet are the best to reflect sound off. There is none of that out Meredith's window, just trees and the ground sloping away.

.
And besides, there are apartments all over the place there. Why would only Nara hear the sound? Why not her next door neighbours. Hmmm, perhaps all the other residents actually did hear it and are lying! Oh crap!!! They are in on the murder too!!
.

 

[Briars]

I never denied that sound can travel. What is at issue is getting sound to reverse direction from Meredith's bedroom window for it to reach Nara's flat. Flat walls and especially inside corners where walls meet are the best to reflect sound off. There is none of that out Meredith's window, just trees and the ground sloping away.

Sound travels from behind the farmhouse far below where the dogs are kept There is nothing to suggest a loud scream would not heard. We have 3 witnesses who heard it who faced the open sloping hill at around the same time. I have zero doubt based on what they said and what I know that it happened. Add to that the very probable scenario that the victim would scream. Amanda heard a scream , she didn't say screaming .. Up thread there was a suggestion that Nara kept her window closed. Nick Pisa , 2009 article Nara 'I looked out the window but didn't see anything. Then a few minutes later I heard running on the metal staircase..".

 

[Briars]

.
And besides, there are apartments all over the place there. Why would only Nara hear the sound? Why not her next door neighbours. Hmmm, perhaps all the other residents actually did hear it and are lying! Oh crap!!! They are in on the murder too!!
.

Three people heard what was described as a harrowing scream. Maybe others were at the back of their apartment or had the TV on. Three people is a lot however.

 

[Briars]

You mean 'listening'. I don't see your having a place on a hill in Italy makes you some kind of expert. When I read your posts I imagine what it might be like being in a jury room with you. 'But I have a house on a hill in Italy. I know how sound carries'. Please Briars, don't be so ridiculous. You are like Mach: you are keeping Nara but amending her evidence just like he (you too) keeps Toto with amendments. You know they did it. Evidence be damned.

Honestly you are not interested in any kind of thoughtful example of sound with the same kind of windows and what can be heard. How would you explain hearing distant barking or cars with the shutters closed? The topography is similar to that of the cottage. There were three who heard it. Your comments are slipping a somewhat bitter simplistic retorts Anglo. Maybe time for an Italian holiday??

 

[Bill Williams]

Honestly you are not interested in any kind of thoughtful example of sound with the same kind of windows and what can be heard. How would you explain hearing distant barking or cars with the shutters closed? The topography is similar to that of the cottage. There were three who heard it. Your comments are slipping a somewhat bitter simplistic retorts Anglo. Maybe time for an Italian holiday??

This is a "thoughtful example"? Ah. Er. All right. Acc. to Italian law thoughtful examples now have the weight of law.

I give up. I formally concede this point to you and any future declaration no matter how speculative as long as it is a thoughtful example and includes pictures to make a point about sound.

You win.

 

[Dan O.]

Try 65RH and 40RH in your calculator. What do you see then?

Of course, if I were smart I would just scroll down a bit on that calculator page and look at the handy chart.

It's not so much a function of the air density but the mixtures of atomic sizes that causes dispersion.


BTW: How do you people breath with those double digit RH numbers?

 

[Briars]

This is a "thoughtful example"? Ah. Er. All right. Acc. to Italian law thoughtful examples now have the weight of law.

I give up. I formally concede this point to you and any future declaration no matter how speculative as long as it is a thoughtful example and includes pictures to make a point about sound.

You win.

Next time I'll post a video