Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Yes, that is from the testimony. My point was that Volturno was more interested in the purchase of bleach (and if purchased by the two, when it was purchased) rather than the specific times Quintavalle saw the two, together or separately in the store not buying bleach.

Please make up a conversation on the 19th with Q that reasonably could end with him not telling Volturno that he had seen Amanda.

His testimony had her in the bleach area of his store. The papers had shown her and Raf as being arrested.

Frankly it is very hard to believe that he wouldn't go to the police shortly after their arrest voluntarily, well before the 19th, and tell them that he had seen her at 7:45 in the morning and she had looked at cleaning supplies.

I believe that by the 19th her alibi was public including the late morning departure from Raf's.

 

[RoseMontague]

A small correction, the smell turned out not to be bleach but some other cleaner that may have contained some bleach. The smell would obviously similar but not the source. It seems hard to accept that if they had used bleach or a bleach containing product on the 2nd that on the 6th it would still have enough smell to notice.

I use bleach to whiten the sink and leave it there for hours but the smell dissipates quickly after letting it out. Certainly days later there is no residual smell.

I believe the cleaning lady testified that no bleach was missing and that she didn't use it and she had cleaned on the 5th.

It's in the same testimony. The first cleaning lady used it to clean the floors and the other cleaning lady took over in September and did not use it. The first cleaning lady confirmed two bottles of bleach under the sink.

 

[Bill Williams]

You need to try to remember what people post . Curatolo saw them earlier, probably waiting in the Piazza for someone. They left the piazza unnoticed by Curatolo,who was reading. They returned later after the screams and murder, where all three were present. Look at the map posted on .org . Perps would escape the less busy route. The car park to the stairs to Via Melo would be the way to go to avoid traffic and intersections! The metal stairs are to the right of her window in the lot , nothing would block the noise. She heard gravel sounds and running on metal and may have actually witnessed the separate leaving times. I haven't heard this mentioned but the high humidity that night 68% facilitates sound travel.

It's telling that you write what you believe is plausible.

There was an actual test to determine what Nara could have heard. It determined that she probably did not hear the scream....

Paul Ciolino Investigates Witness Nara Capezzali
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd-Th8lIxyo

I suppose you'll say he's on the payroll of the PR team. But try to make it all the way through the 3 1/2 minutes....

The actual test was (rather than your imagining): Looking directly on top of the house..... minute 2:18 is the test to see if they could hear people running from the cottage. Next, Nara herself contradicts what the police claim she said... she could not tell, "one or two or three" screams.

She did not know the time of the "sounds", presumably of footsteps. "But she was clear about one thing. 'She says she was never interviewed by the police.'"

The police only saw the witness (Nara) on television. "Not one cop has ever knocked on this woman's door, not one time."

"We're being told this is one of the pillars against Amanda Knox?" "Pretty weak pillar."

Once again, manufactured evidence.

My bet is that for the Florence trial, like Quintavalle before her, Nara will suddenly remember all sorts of things.

 

[RoseMontague]

Please make up a conversation on the 19th with Q that reasonably could end with him not telling Volturno that he had seen Amanda.

His testimony had her in the bleach area of his store. The papers had shown her and Raf as being arrested.

Frankly it is very hard to believe that he wouldn't go to the police shortly after their arrest voluntarily, well before the 19th, and tell them that he had seen her at 7:45 in the morning and she had looked at cleaning supplies.

I believe that by the 19th her alibi was public including the late morning departure from Raf's.

No, there is too much common sense to this. It is Massei, after all.

 

[Bill Williams]

Please make up a conversation on the 19th with Q that reasonably could end with him not telling Volturno that he had seen Amanda.

Hey! Making up conversations is MY job!

 

[Bill Williams]

So let's get this straight. The main evidence against Knox and Sollecito is Nara Capezzali, someone who was never interviewed by police, store owner Quintavalle who didn't remember anything when interviewed by police but a year later suddenly remembered the clothes Knox was wearing, dodgy DNA evidence that even the proecution admits is poor because they want to open up the knife handle to find something (anything, really!).....

And some false/compliant confessions.

These are the pillars of the case against the two.

One thing struck me as similar with the CP5 case. To my knowledge in the CEntral Park 5 case, none of the interrogations were taped or recorded.... but the confessions were.

Similarly none of Knox's, Sollecito's, Lumumba's or Guede's interrogations were recorded, but the police's memorandums written for Knox in the wee hours of Nov 6 become the recorded "confession."

I compare this with the 10 hours (or so) of the recorded interrogation of Russ Williams by Sgt. Jim Smyth in Canada.... a masterful interrogation which achieved it's goal.... the sole goal of interrogation. A confession.

The difference between Knox and Williams is that as a (then) senior Canadian military man, he'd received ant-interrogation/torture training so as to take a deployment to Afghanistan.

Maybe Machiavelli can point to similar training that any of the Perugian principals obviously received so as to pull the wool over the eyes of seasoned investigators like Ficarra and Napoleoni. So far Mach's an expert on sleep issues, on forced/false/compliant confessions.... my bet is that he's also an expert on anti-interrogation training, too.

It's better to keep one's bets hedged.

 

[Grinder]

Hey! Making up conversations is MY job!

I'm soooooooooooorrrrry.

So let's get this straight. The main evidence against Knox and Sollecito is Nara Capezzali, someone who was never interviewed by police, store owner Quintavalle who didn't remember anything when interviewed by police but a year later suddenly remembered the clothes Knox was wearing, dodgy DNA evidence that even the proecution admits is poor because they want to open up the knife handle to find something (anything, really!).....

And some false/compliant confessions.

What about the motives? You forgot about ALL the possible motives.

Similarly none of Knox's, Sollecito's, Lumumba's or Guede's interrogations were recorded, but the police's memorandums written for Knox in the wee hours of Nov 6 become the recorded "confession."

I'll bet the German's recorded Rudi.

Maybe Machiavelli can point to similar training that any of the Perugian principals obviously received so as to pull the wool over the eyes of seasoned investigators like Ficarra and Napoleoni. So far Mach's an expert on sleep issues, on forced/false/compliant confessions.... my bet is that he's also an expert on anti-interrogation training, too.

I asked before but I don't see why you attack Mach for his sleep expertise. It doesn't really matter whether she was sleep deprived or not as it is clear that the police planted the accusation by De Felice's comments. I think you lose the forest for the trees.

You act like an expert on the Reid technique and false confessions yet you are trained in religious matters. You are also an expert in motives and their legal importance yet to my knowledge without training.

It's better to keep one's bets hedged.

Now you are a betting expert?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Oops you forgot the

I had already pasted the information from an IIP link and added the PG site to confirm that it was accurate. The PG site has instructions on how to get a Google translation.

Don't be so lazy look it up yourself. The detective asked about A and R no later than the 19th and at the time Q knew nothing.

Yes, I was joking, yes, forgot the . Won't happen again, hopefully.

 

[JREF2010]

I would like to see Italy attempting to run Machiavelli's formal suspect rule, in which the cops are free to do what they like until someone has been so declared.

Theres a book by Richard Cole, a manager of Led Zepplin, the rock band of the 1970's.

A chapter includes how he and his girlfriend arrived in Italy, and were soon mistakenly put in prison as being terrorists. Due to the Italian holiday, they sat in prison until the courts resumed. Soon released once the court holiday was over, etc..etc.. but a prison vacation none the less.

Just agreeing with the comment the Italian police are free to do whatever they want.

 

[Bill Williams]

You act like an expert on the Reid technique and false confessions yet you are trained in religious matters. You are also an expert in motives and their legal importance yet to my knowledge without training.

You obviously have no idea what training I have. But I'll take this one as a compliment anyways. Thank you.

I am also an expert in making up conversations. It's called the "True Crime" approach. We'll wear you down on the value of that.... you can bet on it!

 

[Bill Williams]

So let's get this straight. The main evidence against Knox and Sollecito is Nara Capezzali, someone who was never interviewed by police, store owner Quintavalle who didn't remember anything when interviewed by police but a year later suddenly remembered the clothes Knox was wearing, dodgy DNA evidence that even the proecution admits is poor because they want to open up the knife handle to find something (anything, really!).....

And some false/compliant confessions.

What about the motives? You forgot about ALL the possible motives.

My bad. Thanks for the reminder.

Strictly speaking it's not all the "possible" motives, it is the four actual motives which the prosecution offered in seriatim (I know Latin bugs you, which is why I put it here.... .... I'm an old-school Catholic that way!)

With that caveat..... yes, the migrating motives until there wasn't one.... is part of the "main evidence" against the pair. The point is, it doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence that the PLE was doing anything other than making things up on the fly.

Ok, the "choice for evil" probably works as a "motive". I wouldn't call it that (falling back on all my training on the subject....) but hey, it works.

We're now up to five then. I strongly suspect you mentioned this to make Mignini look worse, and Massei look even weirder.

 

[NancyS]

What evidence to the contrary? Common sense tells you that nothing stood in the way of her window , she faced nothing except the valley below and the cottage. A loud prolonged scream was heard by more than one witness at around the same time. A scream that was far from ordinary. She wasn't facing other buildings it was quiet outside.

I thought you said that there was possibly still disco buses and people dressed up in Halloween costumes, so it couldn't have been that quiet. If people were still celebrating Halloween as you claimed in your previous post in support of Curatolo, the scream could have come from one of those costume parties or the revellers on those other disco buses

 

[Bill Williams]

What evidence to the contrary? Common sense tells you that nothing stood in the way of her window , she faced nothing except the valley below and the cottage. A loud prolonged scream was heard by more than one witness at around the same time. A scream that was far from ordinary. She wasn't facing other buildings it was quiet outside.

I thought you said that there was possibly still disco buses and people dressed up in Halloween costumes, so it couldn't have been that quiet. If people were still celebrating Halloween as you claimed in your previous post in support of Curatolo, the scream could have come from one of those costume parties or the revellers on those other disco buses

Nice catch! But we now know why Briars resists like the plague putting together a comprehensive theory of the crime which explains the evidence.

He has to have Disco buses on the street to explain Curatolo, but has to have them off the street to explain Nara.

I am sure Briars is typing up his rationale as I type this..... I love it when a guilter theory always diverges from the evidence, rather than converges on the evidence.

 

[Grinder]

You obviously have no idea what training I have. But I'll take this one as a compliment anyways. Thank you.

I am also an expert in making up conversations. It's called the "True Crime" approach. We'll wear you down on the value of that.... you can bet on it!

Since you've repeatably challenged Mach, I ask you what you have expert training in?

 

[Bill Williams]

Since you've repeatably challenged Mach, I ask you what you have expert training in?

Sorry. Doesn`t work that way. Most of my challenges to Mach have been for him to list HIS expert training. He`s making the claims.

I seriously do not know what it is about me that attracts this kind of attention from you. It`s perhaps best if you put me on your ignore list. (I managed to get a Latin term past you without protest.... do I need to show you my Latin bona fides? Sheesh.)

I mean this is all seriousness, Grinder. You need to ignore me.

 

[Grinder]

I thought you said that there was possibly still disco buses and people dressed up in Halloween costumes, so it couldn't have been that quiet. If people were still celebrating Halloween as you claimed in your previous post in support of Curatolo, the scream could have come from one of those costume parties or the revellers on those other disco buses

Of course this also raises the question why no one else noticed this odd behavior of standing in the piazza.

The timing of the scream is as squishy as everything else. Most terrifying scream ever heard and not even the effort to note the time. Makes tea in the kitchen but doesn't notice the time. Notes that people are running after the scream but doesn't call the police. Reads about the murder across the street on the night that the awful scream occurred but no call to the police.

These witnesses show up months or a year after and they are taken seriously but Cristian T isn't because he wasn't sure it was Rudi. Nara isn't sure when the scream happened or the day and the same for Curatolo but they are taken seriously. Bizarre.

 

[Bill Williams]

Of course this also raises the question why no one else noticed this odd behavior of standing in the piazza.

The timing of the scream is as squishy as everything else. Most terrifying scream ever heard and not even the effort to note the time. Makes tea in the kitchen but doesn't notice the time. Notes that people are running after the scream but doesn't call the police. Reads about the murder across the street on the night that the awful scream occurred but no call to the police.

These witnesses show up months or a year after and they are taken seriously but Cristian T isn't because he wasn't sure it was Rudi. Nara isn't sure when the scream happened or the day and the same for Curatolo but they are taken seriously. Bizarre.

And.... according to the only person who, apparently, has ever directly questioned Nara - not the police - she says the police got it wrong when they pulled her story from the TV!

 

[NancyS]

Nice catch! But we now know why Briars resists like the plague putting together a comprehensive theory of the crime which explains the evidence.

He has to have Disco buses on the street to explain Curatolo, but has to have them off the street to explain Nara.

I am sure Briars is typing up his rationale as I type this..... I love it when a guilter theory always diverges from the evidence, rather than converges on the evidence.

Exactly, a belated Halloween party could easily have resulted in a few screams and people running around outside

 

[Dan O.]

I haven't heard this mentioned but the high humidity that night 68% facilitates sound travel.

Maybe the reason you haven't heard it is that it simply is not true. Do you believe that it would be true because you want it to be true because it supports your argument? That seems to be the way of the PGP.

http://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm

 

[Grinder]

Exactly, a belated Halloween party could easily have resulted in a few screams and people running around outside

While I agree with you on this in general, I don't think a scream from a party makes sense when compared to Nara's description of it. It also doesn't explain why no one reported it when it happened.