Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[katy_did]

Well, Volturno was interested in the bleach since two bottles had been recovered from Raffaele's flat and Volturno himself had smelled the bleach in the flat so his focus may have been on the purchasing of bleach by the two defendants rather than documenting the times the two had come into the store. After all, Quintavalle was not the only store owner questioned in the vicinity of Raffaele's flat or the cottage.

Just browsing through Volturno's testimony, and Dalla Vedova clarifies with him that he asked Quintavalle if he had ever seen the two accused ("se avesse mai visto i due imputati"), not just whether he'd seen them buying bleach. Quintavalle replied that Sollecito was a regular customer and that Amanda had come in a couple of times with Raffaele. He said nothing about Amanda coming in on her own on the morning of the murder.

 

[JREF2010]

I don't know if he thought it was important later, only that he was told the information could be important.

or if he thought the information was worth some money....

 

[Bill Williams]

She named Lumumba after 2 and 1/2hours. There were 3 or 4 people present. Donnino testified she was treated well and someone even held her hand. I have no evidence that Donnino lies or changes their stories unlike Amanda and Sollecito. So I don't need to watch a video about a very different situation thanks.

Suit yourself. But I'll throw in free popcorn!

Once again "all the lies" rears its head. Tell you what. Name 13 of them. I have a list of 13 compiled from your friend The Machine. 11 of them are ridiculous and 2 are iffy. And he doesn't even list the one bona fide lie about marijuana use in the cottage!

 

[Bill Williams]

Wrong.



The motives have worked against the case from the beginning. The satanic rite/sex game/etc. made me doubt the case from day one. Only the insane PGP believe these motives, but sane people think there is evidence against them.



Bill I must remind you that you came here ranting band raving that you were the only one that agreed COMPLETELY with Hellmann's verdict including the calumnia. Her lying about Lumumba is the linchpin of the case and that's why the police comments are so important to me



He did find a motive but you don't accept it. He says they saw evil and wanted to join in. Yes, an early judge threw out Mignini's wildest theory.



They had/have a number of motives, so what? I don't care if a murder is solved by solid evidence and the prosecutor can't explain why the perp did it.

The important points in this case are the lack of credible evidence, not motive and not if Mach knows about sleep.

What we do here means as close to nothing as possible. Having said that, I would like to keep Mach on the run about what De Felice meant by "knew to be correct" because that's the heart of the case. Both for her being a suspect and for the police writing the accusation.

Whatever.

 

[Wildhorses]

LOL standard grey jacket and brown scarf uniform

Yep, it's absurd to think Quintavalle guessed that outfit -- and equally absurd to think he remembered it.

Can you remember what anyone in your life wore on a particular day ten months ago? Even four days ago. Can you remember the outfits of people you saw in the grocery store four days ago? I doubt you remember what your spouse wore four days ago, let alone the people you briefly encountered.

Fact is the "super" witnesses for this case are weak, regardless of their motives or sincerity. I don't see how an objective person can claim their testimony is beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yep, it's absurd to think Quintavalle guessed that outfit -- and equally absurd to think he remembered it.

Can you remember what anyone in your life wore on a particular day ten months ago? Even four days ago. Can you remember the outfits of people you saw in the grocery store four days ago? I doubt you remember what your spouse wore four days ago, let alone the people you briefly encountered.

Fact is the "super" witnesses for this case are weak, regardless of their motives or sincerity. I don't see how an objective person can claim their testimony is beyond reasonable doubt.

Nailed.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I gave you a pro guilt site that conveniently leaves out a summary of Volturno's conversation with Quintavalle but the entire testimony is there in Italian.

Yea, thanks, that was real helpful.

 

[Dan O.]

Not weird. The cottage location is down the road and around a bend far enough away from the court. Tall buildings line the road down to the cottage gate. A busy intersection with stop lights next to the bench could have masked the sound. At least 5 car lanes funnel into that intersection. Nothing stands in front of the homes overlooking the valley and the cottage.There is a lower parking lot but the sounds from the cottage carry up to the witnesses homes. Screams that woke them were from Meredith. Windows would not block yelling or screaming echoing from the valley.There was no other place for the sounds to be coming from. After Nara heard the scream she listened and head the running on the gravel on the cottage drive and the noise on metal steps close to her home.

You accept all the little bits of evidence the prosecution throws out but you have yet to put all of this evidence into a comprehensive timeline. What time was that scream? Where we're Raffaele and Amanda at that time? Curatolo seems to place them at the basketball court. Do you believe that? Could they have heard the scream from that location that is line of sight to the cottage gate and well away from the busy intersection?

And what about those footsteps running up the metal steps. The metal steps are at the back of the car park. Who is running that way? Both Rudy and Raffaele live the other way. I get the impression that you haven't actually tried to think about this case but just echo the talking points that have already been made.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yep, it's absurd to think Quintavalle guessed that outfit -- and equally absurd to think he remembered it.

Can you remember what anyone in your life wore on a particular day ten months ago? Even four days ago. Can you remember the outfits of people you saw in the grocery store four days ago? I doubt you remember what your spouse wore four days ago, let alone the people you briefly encountered.

Fact is the "super" witnesses for this case are weak, regardless of their motives or sincerity. I don't see how an objective person can claim their testimony is beyond reasonable doubt.

This is precisely the problem with overpreparing a witness. The prosecution forgot that Quintavalle was entitled to his own testimony. Briars keeps asking for evidence of prosecutorial misconduct - well, here it is.

Where's juror #5 when you need him?

Strangely this is precisely the way they overprepared Knox at interrogation. Instead of letting her give her own evidence, they had to "prepare" her until she buckled and told them what they knew already.

How do you spell, "manufactured evidence"?

 

[Grinder]

I will have to revisit that testimony, however, my recollection was that some of the bleach was gone in one of the bottles and that one of the cleaning ladies had testified to using the bleach on occasion before.

Volturno was at Raffaele's flat on November 8. The bleach could have been used up to November 5. I don't know if it was ever proven or unproven that bleach was used before Amanda's and Raffaele's arrest but there were some who testified to its smell.

Sure they could have left the bloody evidence around for three days but would the motive be for that ?

Did they find any luminol evidence of the use of bleach? Where did they speculate the use of the bleach?

IIRC one of the bottles had been used but the cleaning people said not much or any had been used. The PGP speculated that they used the bleach (not on the knife) and replaced the used portion with the new bleach (that they never bought).

I recall that the defense moved them to admit it was more the smell of clean.

 

[Grinder]

Just browsing through Volturno's testimony, and Dalla Vedova clarifies with him that he asked Quintavalle if he had ever seen the two accused ("se avesse mai visto i due imputati"), not just whether he'd seen them buying bleach. Quintavalle replied that Sollecito was a regular customer and that Amanda had come in a couple of times with Raffaele. He said nothing about Amanda coming in on her own on the morning of the murder.

Thanks, that conforms with my recollections and the quotes up-thread.

 

[Dan O.]

What evidence to the contrary? Common sense tells you that nothing stood in the way of her window , she faced nothing except the valley below and the cottage. A loud prolonged scream was heard by more than one witness at around the same time. A scream that was far from ordinary. She wasn't facing other buildings it was quiet outside.

Where do you believe Meredith was when she screamed?

You may not have been around this forum when we analized the line of sight from Nara's window to the cottage. The walls of that cottage are far too thick to conduct sound. Even if the front door were open, it is well below the road and the carpark. Meredith's window faces the open valley with nothing to reflect sound back up the hill. The top corner of the porch door is barely visible over the rooftop but this also requires the sound to make a right angle bend. Then there is the little issue where the blood evidence tells us that Meredith's bedroom door was closed before she was murdered.

 

[Briars]

You accept all the little bits of evidence the prosecution throws out but you have yet to put all of this evidence into a comprehensive timeline. What time was that scream? Where we're Raffaele and Amanda at that time? Curatolo seems to place them at the basketball court. Do you believe that? Could they have heard the scream from that location that is line of sight to the cottage gate and well away from the busy intersection?

And what about those footsteps running up the metal steps. The metal steps are at the back of the car park. Who is running that way? Both Rudy and Raffaele live the other way. I get the impression that you haven't actually tried to think about this case but just echo the talking points that have already been made.

You need to try to remember what people post . Curatolo saw them earlier, probably waiting in the Piazza for someone. They left the piazza unnoticed by Curatolo,who was reading. They returned later after the screams and murder, where all three were present. Look at the map posted on .org . Perps would escape the less busy route. The car park to the stairs to Via Melo would be the way to go to avoid traffic and intersections! The metal stairs are to the right of her window in the lot , nothing would block the noise. She heard gravel sounds and running on metal and may have actually witnessed the separate leaving times. I haven't heard this mentioned but the high humidity that night 68% facilitates sound travel.

 

[Grinder]

Yep, it's absurd to think Quintavalle guessed that outfit -- and equally absurd to think he remembered it.

Can you remember what anyone in your life wore on a particular day ten months ago? Even four days ago. Can you remember the outfits of people you saw in the grocery store four days ago? I doubt you remember what your spouse wore four days ago, let alone the people you briefly encountered.

Fact is the "super" witnesses for this case are weak, regardless of their motives or sincerity. I don't see how an objective person can claim their testimony is beyond reasonable doubt.

Great points. This is also a great insight into how getting too into an issue leads people to not see the forest for the trees.

I can't remember what I wore a week later for any day. Why would he take such notice and yet when asked 17 days later not think mentioning her was REALLY important. Even if Volturno didn't ask what he says but only asked about the bleach, how could Q not say he saw Amanda and she was in the area of the bleach.

 

[Grinder]

Yea, thanks, that was real helpful.

Oops you forgot the

I had already pasted the information from an IIP link and added the PG site to confirm that it was accurate. The PG site has instructions on how to get a Google translation.

Don't be so lazy look it up yourself. The detective asked about A and R no later than the 19th and at the time Q knew nothing.

 

[Briars]

Yes nothing to reflect sound back except the shape of the terrain and the natural echo of the valley, kind of like a concert hall. Do you think all three witnesses heard another terrifying scream that night that carried through the glass window?

 

[Grinder]

You need to try to remember what people post . Curatolo saw them earlier, probably waiting in the Piazza for someone. They left the piazza unnoticed by Curatolo,who was reading. They returned later after the screams and murder, where all three were present. Look at the map posted on .org . Perps would escape the less busy route. The car park to the stairs to Via Melo would be the way to go to avoid traffic and intersections! The metal stairs are to the right of her window in the lot , nothing would block the noise. She heard gravel sounds and running on metal and may have actually witnessed the separate leaving times. I haven't heard this mentioned but the high humidity that night 68% facilitates sound travel.

Curatolo saw nothing.

When did she scream? If it was before 10:30 then Nara is out. If it was after 10:30 then it couldn't be until 11:15 when the tow truck and the people from Rome left.

If need Curatolo then you need to deal with them being in the piazza at 11:30 to close to midnight. Were they bloody?

Nara said she heard the most terrifying scream of her life and then people running shortly thereafter. Do you think all three went to the bathrooms and cleaned up and then all ran out together?

I would say that if they took any time to clean they would figure out that they would walk and run when leaving.

Get rid of Nara and Curatolo and make up a scenario that works.

 

[christianahannah]

Just browsing through Volturno's testimony, and Dalla Vedova clarifies with him that he asked Quintavalle if he had ever seen the two accused ("se avesse mai visto i due imputati"), not just whether he'd seen them buying bleach. Quintavalle replied that Sollecito was a regular customer and that Amanda had come in a couple of times with Raffaele. He said nothing about Amanda coming in on her own on the morning of the murder.

Yes, that is from the testimony. My point was that Volturno was more interested in the purchase of bleach (and if purchased by the two, when it was purchased) rather than the specific times Quintavalle saw the two, together or separately in the store not buying bleach.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yea, thanks, that was real helpful.

I posted the Italian followed by the Google translation in the same attachment.

 

[Antony]

She named Lumumba after 2 and 1/2hours. There were 3 or 4 people present. Donnino testified she was treated well and someone even held her hand.

Why would anyone believe what the police say in this case? This is a police force that have impunity to commit perjury.

I have no evidence that Donnino lies or changes their stories unlike Amanda and Sollecito.

Where is your proof that Amanda and Raff lied or changed their story? Oh, of course: the lying police said they did. I don't know if there's separate evidence that Donnino personally lied (apart from her implausible claims that Amanda was "treated well"), but her colleagues certainly did.

So I don't need to watch a video about a very different situation thanks.

Strange you should mention the video. Without it neither you nor the Perugia police are in a position to state anything as a fact about the interrogation.