Could you please reference and cite these passages, and justify your interpretation of them? Explain also please how anyone could believe that Paul had seen Jesus in a vision on the day of his resurrection, when any reader of Paul's letters would be aware that he had persecuted the followers of the deceased Jesus for an indeterminate but significant time prior to the journey to Damascus.
ETA Neither do I "invent eye witnesses". I simply suggest that a real execution of Jesus by Pilate is a possible source of the passages written by the evangelists indicating that they believed that Jesus was executed by Pilate.
OK, well Firstly, if you are suggesting eye-witnesses to a real execution of a real Jesus, where you have no such evidence of any eye-witnesses, and where none of the gospels report any eye-witnesses, then you are most certainly "inventing” the idea. Otherwise, if you are not "inventing” it, then you have to show evidence for that idea ... so what is your evidence for these eye-witnesses?
But to answer your highlighted paragraph (for the 6 th or 7th time?) -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Damascus
1 Cor. 15:3–8
A
The conversion in Paul's letters
In his surviving letters, Paul's own description of his conversion experience is brief. In his First Epistle to the Corinthians,[9:1] [15:3-8] he describes having seen the Risen Christ:
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
— 1 Cor. 15:3–8, NIV (emphasis added)
Galatians 1:11-16
B
Paul's Epistle to the Galatians also describes his conversion as a divine revelation, with God's Son appearing in Paul.
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.
— Galatians 1:11-16, NIV (emphasis added)
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/bellett/GdConfes.html
1-Timothy 6:12-14
C
Paul exhorts his son Timothy "to fight the good fight of faith, and to lay hold on eternal life," in remembrance of this faith that was in the blessed Saviour Himself. "Fight," says he, "the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, Who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, Who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession, that thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim. 6:12-14).
OK, so regarding Paul’s vision recounted in 1-Corinthians (A, above) - first note that apart from saying to you at least 4 times over the past few pages, and also in fact about 30 pages earlier in this thread before I ever began arguing with you about any of this, I myself stressed that a careful reading of 1-Corinthians shows that Paul’s vision was not necessarily on the 3rd day after the execution, and could, as I have repeatedly said, have been consistent with Jesus being executed at any time, days, weeks, months, years, decades, or even centuries before Paul’s vision … so please do not again miss the point entirely and tell me that this passage does not actually literally say that Jesus had just been executed 3 days earlier.
However, the point of that passage is that it very clearly and unarguably does say that Paul and hundreds of other people claimed to see the risen Jesus, in a sentence where Paul stresses that his vision was on a particular day-date whilst on the road to Damascus. Right. So that’s the first thing.
The second thing about that vision is that it has been dated by bible scholars (not by me!) to have happened on a particular day around circa. 35AD (it might have been any date from c.30AD to 36AD, but it was that specific day when Paul was on the road to Damascus).
So that date, lets say it was in 35AD, puts Paul’s vision in the known period of time for when Pilate was supposed to be the governor of Judea. OK, so that means Paul claimed to see the risen Jesus at a time when Pilate was in charge of executions.
Now, in that very same sentence, Paul also says that Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day. Right, so on the face of things, if you do not read the sentence quite carefully, or if you were just hearing Paul verbally preaching that sentence or hearing Paul’s followers preaching that sentence, then it quite obviously and unarguably could be taken to mean that Paul and the hundreds of others had seen the risen Jesus on the day when Paul himself says Jesus rose from the dead, …. and that time and date was when Paul was on the road to Damascus in the reign of Pilate’s governorship.
In reference “B” Galatians, Paul merely tells his listeners that God had revealed Jesus to him as the Son of God. But afaik, that revelation is again taken to mean Paul’s vision of the risen Christ.
In reference “C” 1-Timothy, Paul (see footnote!!) explicitly and directly tells his disciple Timothy that Pontius Pilate was the official who heard the confession of Jesus before the execution.
OK, so what are we to make of “C” 1-Tomothy? Well the first thing is that it is now thought to be a “fake” written by someone other than the writer of Paul’s “real” letters, and written around the early part of the second century AD. However, it is surely unlikely that this letter would have been universally regarded as a “fake” in the 2nd century! At that time, it was presumably widely, and probably universally (for all we can know), believed to be written by Paul. So from that, no doubt people in the 2nd century had the very obvious and quite unmistakable impression that Paul knew that Pontius Pilate had executed Jesus …. which to people at that time, would fit perfectly well with the belief from 1-Corinthinas that Paul’s vision of the risen Jesus in c.35AD was indeed a vision of Jesus who Paul assured them was rising on the 3rd day according to infallible scripture … and that is slap-bang at the time of Pilate as governor.
So, what I am saying to you about all this, and now also trying to explain to
Dave, is that -
1. It is not just pure speculation to say that Paul’s letter 1-Corinthinas pre-dates any of the gospels.
2. It is not pure speculation to say that in 1-Corinthins Paul claims to have seen the risen Jesus at a date which has been fixed (by bible scholars, not by me!) as a particular day in c.35AD.
3. It is not speculation to say that in that very same sentence of 1-Corinthians, Paul explicitly says that Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day.
4. It is not speculation to say that in 1-Corinthians in the very same sentence as his vision, Paul says that hundreds of other people had also seen the risen Jesus.
5. It is not speculation to say that what Paul describes in the written version of that story around 50AD as 1-Corinthinas, is describing what Paul claimed to see in 35AD, and what Paul and his followers were preaching about his vision of the rising of Jesus from that date in 35AD onwards.
And then as far as 1-Timothy is concerned -
6. It is not pure speculation to say that Paul clearly says that Pontius Pilate was the official who heard the confession of Jesus immediately before the execution.
So what does all that mean? What am I saying about all of that? OK, well, for what must now be the tenth time? What I am saying about those quotes from Paul is …
…. those Pauline quotes, and the reported lifetime of Paul’s preaching, which supposedly long pre-dates the writing of any extant copies of the gospels from which you are obtaining any mention of Pilate (ie copies which are only known from 4th century and later, in relatively complete and readable form), very clearly offer an earlier source from which those later gospel copyists of the 4th century (and in fact mostly from 6th century and later) could quite obviously have got the idea that the execution of Jesus was close to the date of Paul’s vision in 35AD, and at the time of Pontius Pilate.
And if they were in any doubt about it from Paul’s sentence in 1-Corinthians, then in 1-Timothy they find “Paul” actually directly naming Pontius Pilate as the official.
Now, unlike your “invention” of eye witnesses, none of the above is actually speculation at all.
What you (and Dave) may want to call “speculation”, is the idea that people reading 1-Corinthians from 55AD, or much more likely, people from as early as that date of 35AD onwards hearing Paul and his followers recounting the verbal preaching of that story of Paul’s claimed vision, would conclude that Paul’s vision was of the very recently executed Christ.
You may now think it is obvious from a modern critical reading of that sentence in 1-Corinthians, that we should not automatically take it to mean Pauls’ vision was certainly on the 3rd day. But if you look carefully and honestly at Paul’s sentence, then it’s quite obvious that uncritical faithful believers in the 1st and 2nd century may easily have read that, or heard that, to mean Paul was describing what he had in fact just told people in the very same sentence, ie that his vision of Jesus was the vision of a Christ who certainly had to be rising on the 3rd day after his execution!
How much clearer does that need to be for heavens sake??
But note (
here’s the footnote…) I am
NOT saying myself that Paul’s sentence definitely means the vision had to be on the third day. As I said above - I have already said 30 pages back that in fact the sentence could mean that Paul’s vision was at any date after the death of Christ, even centuries afterwards. But the point is that faithful uncritical Christian followers, reading or hearing that sentence in the 1st or 2nd century AD could very easily understand it to mean that Paul had in 35AD on the road to Damascus, seen the risen Jesus who was known to rise on the third day after his execution … and that date of 35AD, puts the execution in the hands of Pontius Pilate … and just to make absolutely sure about it, “Paul” also tells them in his letter to Timothy that Pilate was indeed the governor responsible.
Now, NONE of that is actually pure “speculation“. It’s not even speculation to say that Paul’s readers and listeners could very easily get that impression from Paul’s words, because it’s perfectly obvious that Paul’s words could very easily be taken to mean that the vision was of a figure who Paul insisted had risen on the 3rd day.
.
