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What counts as a historical Jesus?

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A little while ago I asked Piggy about the tradition that the author of Mark got his info from the sermons of Peter. Piggy said he wasn't interested in that because it was wrong. Undeterred I googled on regardless and found this: http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/marks-gospel-is-an-early-memoir-of-peter-2/
Papias said that Mark scribed Peter’s teachings
Eusebius (the well respected Church historian) wrote that Bishop Papias of Hierapolis (60-130AD) repeated the testimony of the old presbyters (disciples of the Apostles) who said that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome as he scribed the preaching of Peter himself (Ecclesiastical History Book 2 Chapter 15, Book 3 Chapter 30 and Book 6 Chapter 14). Papias wrote a five volume work entitled, “Interpretation of the Oracles of the Lord”. In this treatise (which no longer exists), he quotes someone he identifies as ‘the elder’, (most likely John the elder), a man who held considerable authority in Asia:

“And the elder used to say this, Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord. For he had not heard the Lord, nor had followed him, but later on, followed Peter, who used to give teaching as necessity demanded but not making, as it were, an arrangement of the Lord’s oracles, so that Mark did nothing wrong in thus writing down single points as he remembered them. For to one thing he gave attention, to leave out nothing of what he had heard and to make no false statements in them.”

Apparently Irenaeus, Justin Martyr and Clement all say similar things. Now, can anyone of you actual Scholars explain to me why this can be dismissed so easily? We rely on these sources for other stuff about the early church, why not this?
 
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A little while ago I asked Piggy about the tradition that the author of Mark got his info from the sermons of Peter. Piggy said he wasn't interested in that because it was wrong. Undeterred I googled on regardless and found this: http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/marks-gospel-is-an-early-memoir-of-peter-2/

I do want to clarify here, because there's an additional bit you left out and it's quite important.

I'm not uninterested in it because it's wrong….

It's true that it is wrong, and I did mention that, but I also said that it is revealing even though it's wrong.

I'm not particularly interested in it here because it tells us something about people who lived later than the folks I'm discussing.

The wrong beliefs held by the early Xians are, as I've said before, just as important as the correct beliefs they held.

Same goes for the folks who came to hold the belief you're discussing.

But in this thread, I'm limiting my discussion to the first century.

So I think it's important to clarify that, just because a tradition is factually incorrect, that doesn't mean it doesn't reveal truths about the people who believed in that tradition.
 
A little while ago I asked Piggy about the tradition that the author of Mark got his info from the sermons of Peter. Piggy said he wasn't interested in that because it was wrong. Undeterred I googled on regardless and found this: http://pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/marks-gospel-is-an-early-memoir-of-peter-2/


Apparently Irenaeus, Justin Martyr and Clement all say similar things. Now, can anyone of you actual Scholars explain to me why this can be dismissed so easily? We rely on these sources for other stuff about the early church, why not this?

Almost every secular overview article addresses this kind of thing I think. Here is a discussion from Rejection of Pascal's Wager:
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/markauthor.html

One argument that the article linked to above doesn't make (eta: but I think is valid) is that the Gospel of Mark doesn't remotely sound like it was written from the viewpoint of an assistant or secretary of Peter. There are no stories that sound like they are delivered from Peter's point of view. There are no ideological arguments that are tied to Peter.
 
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Dunno about the early Greek drama, but TerenceWP wrote about the human condition. He, of course, followed the Ancient Greek ComedyWP tradition.
Would this could as deliberate fiction?

Perhaps not, but the novel as an art form dates at least from the first century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_novel
Yes, fiction absolutely already existed.
The Greek Novels were some of our earliest examples of any form of novel; their form, as we recognize them today, would be historical fiction.

For instance, both Callirhoe and Anthia and Habrocomes are set in the distant past.
Another shared attribute in Greek novels is that they are devoted to the tales of love and romance wedged into the trials of epic adventure.

A modern comparison would be like historical fiction swashbuckling romance novels of our modern era.

It took a while for much further evolution, but eventually this culture of evolving the prose of Play into a purely conceptual medium would aid in the eventual creation of what's classed as contemporary fiction.

The other form was a bit more interesting, and still debated as far as I can tell; it's a method of writing history, but then deviating in the middle of historical account and writing wild romantic flings tangled with adventure into the history that was being written. These tend to be very short, and there's debate whether these were literary alleviation from an otherwise boring historical read, or whether they were gossip entries or possibly character assassination attempts.
 
As I've said before, we also have to consider usage.

We have no evidence of recreational reading of these texts. They were preserved, copied, and used among devotional groups.

This is not unimportant.
 
Contemporary fiction is purely fiction.
It is not an historical error, nor a political deceit.

Actually that is not true. The contemporary fiction of the 19th century (penny dreadful and dime novels) sometimes marketed themselves as "true" stories.

A more modern example is the Ripley's Believe It or Not! comic put out by Gold Key (later Whitman) in the 1970s through 1980s which claimed all its stories were "True"...and if you believe that there is a bridge in New York somebody wants you to buy. :D


For it to be contemporary fiction, the text would have to assume Jesus was never real and was only a character in a story.

Again not true as i have already pointed out that there were dime novels that used real life contemporary people as characters. Here are some samples of those:

Buffalo Bill Stories

Jesse James Stories

Deadwood Dick's Doom; or, Calamity Jane's Last Adventure, a Tale of Death Notch

A Terror to Evil-Doers and A Blood and Thunder Hero (Wild Bill Hickok)

For this to be contemporary fiction, Jesus would be an analogue to James Bond.

With the dime novel example, why?

Also we can't ignore contemporary fiction as propaganda; The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the Tanaka Memorial are the best modern examples of that.
 
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Your examples are examples of historical fiction and not contemporary fiction.
Calling on real individuals and making up fictional accounts of their actions is not contemporary fiction; that would be one of the forms of historical fiction.

Also, if I compared the likeness to something like Buffalo Bill; then I would be assuming a position whereby Jesus existed and the stories were embellished.

It would not be a good comparison for a purely fictional Jesus.


It's a rather straight forward point; we can nit pick at each other as much as we want, but I have very strong doubts this angle of approach would really get any traction in publication officially.

It has a mountain of a case to build, and adds more contest to the argument than otherwise would be required.
 
I was on youtube and stumbled on "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist - A Lecture by Dr. Richard Carrier" where Carrier talks about something very interesting starting at 22:50 regarding our old friend Philo of Alexandria who wrote between the 20s and 40s (this is taken straight from the slide presented at time indexes 23:24; 23:52):

"Philo of Alexandria Tells us:

(For sources see Carrier, Not the Impossible Faith pp 250-51)

* There was a pre-Christian Jewish belief in a celestial being actually named "Jesus" who was...

* Firstborn son of God <--Romans 8:29

* Celestial image of God <--2 Corinthians 4:4

* God's Agent of Creation <--1 Corinthians 8:6

(God's celestial high priest)--the angle doesn't show that one but Carrier is reading them off.

---


But one of the key arguments by apologists is Philo living mostly in Alexandria would have know NOTHING of Jesus Christ. So how in the name of sanity could he have written any of this if he knew nothing of the Jesus of Paul and the later Gospels? Better yet how could Philo have written any of this as early as 20 CE when Jesus didn't even start his ministry until 29 CE?
 
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I was on youtube and stumbled on "Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist - A Lecture by Dr. Richard Carrier" where Carrier talks about something very interesting starting at 22:50 regarding our old friend Philo of Alexandria who rote between the 20s and 40s who stated (23:24; 23:52) (this is taken straight from the slide presented):

"Philo of Alexandria Tells us:

(For sources see Carrier, Not the Impossible Faith pp 205-51)

* There was a pre-Christian Jewish belief in a celestial being actually named "Jesus" who was...

* Firstborn son of God <--Romans 8:29

* Celestial image of God <--2 Corinthians 4:4

* God's Agent of Creation <--1 Corinthians 8:6

(God's celestial high priest)--the angle doesn't show that one but Carrier is reading them off.

---


But one of the key arguments by apologists is Philo living mostly in Alexandria would have know NOTHING of Jesus Christ. So how in the name of sanity could he have written any of this if he knew nothing of the Jesus of Paul and the later Gospels? Better yet how could Philo have written any of this as early as 20 CE when Jesus didn't even start his ministry until 29 CE?
I wonder if you could stumble a bit more, and let us have the references to the passages of his works in which Philo makes these statements.
 
Your examples are examples of historical fiction and not contemporary fiction.

No they are not as these works were written when the people involved were still living...the very definition of contemporary.

Buffalo Bill Stories (1906-1910) involving Colonel William Cody (1846-1917)

Jesse James Stories (1901) which also involved his brother Frank (1843 - 1915)

Deadwood Dick's Doom; or, Calamity Jane's Last Adventure, a Tale of Death Notch (1899) involving Martha Jane Canary (1852–1903)

Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter and George Washington's Vision are examples of historical fiction.

Contrast that with Crichton's The Andromeda Strain which even through written in 1969 could still be viewed as "contemporary" fiction.
 
I wonder if you could stumble a bit more, and let us have the references to the passages of his works in which Philo makes these statements.

What part of

(For sources see Carrier, Not the Impossible Faith pp 250-51)


on the slide did you not understand? You want to challenge Carriers sources get the book and show how they are wrong but don't waste our time by being lazy and ask to be spoon feed them.
 
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What part of

(For sources see Carrier, Not the Impossible Faith pp 250-51)


on the slide did you not understand?
I think he might have been asking for information about which parts of Philo's works contained the quotes you listed above. It seems possible that Craig B might not have a copy of Carrier's book. ETA: I know I don't.
 
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Actually that is not true. The contemporary fiction of the 19th century (penny dreadful and dime novels) sometimes marketed themselves as "true" stories.

...
I have assumed up to now that JaysonR is using terms that have some formalized meanings in some kind of anthropological study of fiction. However, I didn't find anything to confirm that idea with an internet search. But has Piggy has mentioned, not all things are on the internet.

I think his claim is that until the 5th or 6th century CE there wasn't a literary form that would correspond to a modern novel where all the characters in the work are fictional and presented as such and the events of the novel take place roughly in the time frame it is written.

There seem to be some exceptions that have been put forth and I am not sure why they don't falsify JaysonR's claim.

Aesops fables - Don't count because they're about animals?
Classic Greek Plays - Don't count because the main characters were always Gods or people that were otherwise believed to have existed?
Terence's plays - Not sure why they don't count. The Wikipedia summary of Andria certainly makes it sound like it's a completely fictional work.
Plutarch - Not sure I understood why eight bits brought this up as a counter example. It seems like he wrote fiction about real people.
Satyricon - Not sure why this doesn't count. It seems like it is a complete work of fiction, intended to be taken as a work of fiction set roughly in the time of the author.

I suspect that JaysonR might be a little sorry he brought this up at this point and I'm not completely happy that I thought the topic was interesting enough to discuss and I'm concerned that I still don't get it and I'm just muddying the waters so this might be my last post on this. I just thought I'd make one more attempt to understand what JaysonR's point is since he at least posts with the bravado of somebody who knows what he is talking about on this.
 
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What part of

(For sources see Carrier, Not the Impossible Faith pp 250-51)


on the slide did you not understand? You want to challenge Carriers sources get the book and show how they are wrong but don't waste our time by being lazy and ask to be spoon feed them.
Maxi. Insolence of that order adds nothing to the debate.
 
Jayson

What I sense is that the term contemporary fiction, which never was firmly defined in the thread, has drifted and shifted to the point where, if I can distinguish Mark from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, then Mark cannot be contemporary fiction.

OK, I can, so it isn't. Kumbaya. But the serious hypothesis space for Mark's purposes does include any (literary) motives Ovid may have had in composing the Apotheosis of Julius Caesar, IMO. That is with the additional complication that Mark wouldn't have had the assurance about the historical reality of Jesus that Ovid had for Julius.

For all we know, Mark may have had good reasons to suspect that, or wonder whether, there was no historical Jesus, and still have written what he did. For example, we cannot eliminate hypothesis specification, to determine by construction whether any coherent narrative reconciles the incompatible, according to Paul, teachings of Paul and the James Gang. (We have the further disadvantage that we don't know what the James Gang taught about Jesus.)

Luke, in his time, will acknowledge the possibility that Theophilus might doubt something. While the stated purpose of Luke's writing is to reassure Theo and foster conviction about what he was taught, the claims made for the actual narrative are that it is new and orderly - not accurate. In other words, all that Luke actually says is that he shows a possible Jesus.

Perhaps Mark intended no more contribution to history than that. He just doesn't say.

ETA

davefoc

Not sure I understood why eight bits brought this up as a counter example. It seems like he wrote fiction about real people.
Plutarch wrote mixed fact and fiction about both real people who lived in his lifetime and also about other figures whom he could not possibly know whether they were real or not. Moreover, the claim that was being countered back then was that an obvious and widely used literary technique was supposedly unprecedented, and Plutarch was kind enough to discuss his technique, not just tell his stories.

In short, Plutarch is a confirming example for the availability of several hypotheses about Mark's literary motives. Also, the precise genre of Mark may well be what is called a "life," distinct from both what we would call history and biography, with the prototypical instance of the genre being Plutarch. What makes Mark's genre uncertain is what makes Plutarch's genre secure: statements from the author about what he is trying to accomplish in the work.

I hope that helps to clarify things for you.
 
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I think he might have been asking for information about which parts of Philo's works contained the quotes you listed above. It seems possible that Craig B might not have a copy of Carrier's book. ETA: I know I don't.

How did you get "which parts of Philo's works contained the quotes you listed above" when I expressly stated:

(this is taken straight from the slide presented at time indexes 23:24; 23:52):

Everything is I posted is from that SLIDE and I don't have Carrier's book either.
 
Maxi. Insolence of that order adds nothing to the debate.

Again what part of

(For sources see Carrier, Not the Impossible Faith pp 250-51)

on the slide did you not understand?

Thank you. Nor do I. There's an Amazon link, and the book is online chapter by chapter at http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/improbable/, but the pagination is different.

Also per the note the book has fully updated so the option of opening all the Chapters and look for "Philo" (case match) is not as useful as it could be.

9. Was the Idea of an Incarnate God Really Repugnant?
10. Would Groupthinkers Never Switch Groups?
11. Did No One Trust Women?

However a look for Philo Jesus Carrier via this wonderful search engine called Google (perhaps you have heard of it) produces On the Confusion of Tongues 62-63 as well as Carrier's own blog on the matter.

"But in short, Philo says the Jesus discussed in Zechariah 6 (there was no difference between the names Jesus and Joshua; that is entirely a modern invention) was the logos, the firstborn son of god, supreme archangel and celestial high priest, through whom god created and governs the universe.

See Philo, On the Confusion of Tongues 62-63, consulting the bible passage he is talking about (Zechariah 6:11-12), and then linking that to his discussions of the same figure elsewhere, esp. Philo, On the Confusion of Tongues 146 and On Dreams 1.215."

It is not insolence to point out laziness or a failure to freaking read or think. :mad:
 
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How did you get "which parts of Philo's works contained the quotes you listed above" when I expressly stated:

(this is taken straight from the slide presented at time indexes 23:24; 23:52):

Everything is I posted is from that SLIDE and I don't have Carrier's book either.
I see. Thank you, then. Spoon feeding is indeed not your way of doing things. Have you read the Philo passages yourself, if I may ask?

ETA I can't get YouTube here. Insufficient signal.
 
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