Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Machiavelli]

Anxiety is natural.

Yes, especially if you just killed your roommate and you know the police is investigating h/24.

I bet she was anxious. She had all reasons to be so, if she was guilty, don't you think?

But anxiety does not imply severe exhaustion, not even skip on night sleep causes severe exhaustion. In fact, you have a person who was normaly functioning and performing in her intellectual activity, was organized and consequential (attended university classes that day, planned to go out to eat and, made oranized yoga exercises, studied schoolbooks and did difficult homework, wrote elaborate and logically sophisticate defensive memoirs). She had shown awarness about reality in every moment.

 

[RoseMontague]

You often remember about black people entering your home, then raping and killing someone in the room next to yours?

Ask me when I have undergone 4 days and nights of interrogation by cops that treat me like a criminal and I am stressed and sleep deprived. I might remember all kinds of things, it happens sometimes.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes, especially if you just killed your roommate and you know the police is investigating h/24.

I bet she was anxious. She had all reasons to be so, if she was guilty, don't you think?

But anxiety does not imply severe exhaustion, not even skip on night sleep causes severe exhaustion. In fact, you have a person who was normaly functioning and performing in her intellectual activity, was organized and consequential (attended university classes that day, planned to go out to eat and, made oranized yoga exercises, studied schoolbooks and did difficult homework, wrote elaborate and logically sophisticate defensive memoirs). She had shown awarness about reality in every moment.

Well, no. I guess we need the interrogation tapes or transcripts to really judge this "every moment" thing. What is obvious is that her two statements are not real, they are missing all of the details that the real killer might know, they are not spoken in the kind of words she uses, they are the cop's words.

 

[Machiavelli]

You should talk. I am still waiting on this big file of documented evidence of Amanda's sexual attraction to Meredith that you claimed.

Don't you think the balcony is an issue with some importance?
Do you think Bill's photos of a street lamp it was ok as "evidence" to the issue?

Don't you think assessing this element (or any othr) should be thorough and require to research reality on the topic (distance of lamp...? how the balcony actually looks from..?)

 

[Machiavelli]

Well, no. I guess we need the interrogation tapes or transcripts to really judge this "every moment" thing. What is obvious is that her two statements are not real, they are missing all of the details that the real killer might know, they are not spoken in the kind of words she uses, they are the cop's words.

They are redacted as they should be. But they do contain her own words, because italian cops wouldn't say "ho molto paura di Patrick" (and Italian speaker won't use an adverb in place of a quantificating adjective - this is a calque from English).

However her statements are more than two, because there is the hand written memoir. Which is what I am talking about.

 

[RoseMontague]

Don't you think the balcony is an issue with some importance?
Do you think Bill's photos of a street lamp it was ok as "evidence" to the issue?

Don't you think assessing this element (or any othr) should be thorough and require to research reality on the topic (distance of lamp...? how the balcony actually looks from..?)

There is also a light next to the walkway near the balcony that is by my estimate about 5.51 meters away. SomeAlibi took some pictures of the cottage in the dark from Filomena's side. Some were lightened up but you can tell it's pretty dark.

 

[MDDVS]

Yes, especially if you just killed your roommate and you know the police is investigating h/24.

I bet she was anxious. She had all reasons to be so, if she was guilty, don't you think?

But anxiety does not imply severe exhaustion, not even skip on night sleep causes severe exhaustion. In fact, you have a person who was normaly functioning and performing in her intellectual activity, was organized and consequential (attended university classes that day, planned to go out to eat and, made oranized yoga exercises, studied schoolbooks and did difficult homework, wrote elaborate and logically sophisticate defensive memoirs). She had shown awarness about reality in every moment.

She had reasons to be anxious if she was innocent too. Anxiety may cause to stay awake even when you're exhausted. But obviously the main problem was not the exhaustion as you very well know. The problem was what happened inside the questura and that is the reason the interrogation was not recorded.

 

[MDDVS]

Don't you think the balcony is an issue with some importance?
Do you think Bill's photos of a street lamp it was ok as "evidence" to the issue?

Don't you think assessing this element (or any othr) should be thorough and require to research reality on the topic (distance of lamp...? how the balcony actually looks from..?)

The balcony is irrelevant. It's equally easy to access the house through both entry points.

 

[RoseMontague]

They are redacted as they should be. But they do contain her own words, because italian cops wouldn't say "ho molto paura di Patrick" (and Italian speaker won't use an adverb in place of a quantificating adjective - this is a calque from English).

However her statements are more than two, because there is the hand written memoir. Which is what I am talking about.

LOL. And much of what is in the two statements she would not say as an American. We therefore know that the statements as a whole are not in her own words. You can continue on discussing the handwritten statements because as far as I am concerned any fair person looking at those statements can easily see she is no longer certain of her accusation.

 

[Machiavelli]

LOL. And much of what is in the two statements she would not say as an American. We therefore know that the statements as a whole are not in her own words. You can continue on discussing the handwritten statements because as far as I am concerned any fair person looking at those statements can easily see she is no longer certain of her accusation.

"Much of"? All what she said was redacted, as it had to be. This is how how all statements released to the are like. But what is reported reveals and contain also her own words, because they shine through - as I pointed out in an example.

What is certain is that she is voluntarily writing and submitting a false testimony (which is also false evidence against an innocent, regardless if suer or not). Any fair person can easilly acknowledge that it is a false testimony. And that it was voluntary.

 

[Machiavelli]

The balcony is irrelevant. It's equally easy to access the house through both entry points.

You are issueing a judgement without wanting to research... A prejudicial position.

 

[Machiavelli]

She had reasons to be anxious if she was innocent too. Anxiety may cause to stay awake even when you're exhausted. But obviously the main problem was not the exhaustion as you very well know. The problem was what happened inside the questura and that is the reason the interrogation was not recorded.

You admit exhaustion was not the problem. Ok.

What happened in the Questura: she reportedly had a false memory, that's what she told in testimonies. (There is actually no other "event" she reported that could justify her actions).
Always bear in mind that Amanda Knox claims false memory.

The hand written note, moreover, is a maniulative false testimony certainly not written with the help of the police.

Also, I suppose you are unable to prove that Anna Donnino is not reliable as a witness. You know, she is very reliable, and she described very clearly what happened.

 

[MDDVS]

You are issueing a judgement without wanting to research... A prejudicial position.

I've seen the pictures of the house. You can tell the scale from the one of the lawyer climbing. What else is there to research? Athletic people can do that climb in seconds. The same with the balcony. Just google one of those videos of people doing parcour if you need proof.

All that discussion about what was inside the burglar's head is just drivel. We can't know for sure his motivations to chose the window he did, but since both windows are equally accessible it's also irrelevant.

 

[MDDVS]

You admit exhaustion was not the problem. Ok.
What happened in the Questura: she reportedly had a false memory, that's what she told in testimonies. (There is actually no other "event" she reported that could justify her actions).
Always bear in mind that Amanda Knox claims false memory.

The hand written note, moreover, is a maniulative false testimony certainly not written with the help of the police.

Also, I suppose you are unable to prove that Anna Donnino is not reliable as a witness. You know, she is very reliable, and she described very clearly what happened.

No, I said it wasn't the *main* problem, but it was certainly a factor. It is well known that sleep deprivation is a powerful interrogation tool (it was routinely used in totalitarian states).

Many of the reported events (being hit, for example, and I can imagine that it would be quite easy to make her terrified) easily justify her actions.

The fact that the police decided not to videotape the interrogation, coupled with the knowledge of what the police can do in those situations (happens everywhere not just in Italy) makes me very suspicious of a witness who is not really independent (I'd very surprised if she was not already an aquaintance of at least some of the police people)

 

[Machiavelli]

There is also a light next to the walkway near the balcony that is by my estimate about 5.51 meters away. SomeAlibi took some pictures of the cottage in the dark from Filomena's side. Some were lightened up but you can tell it's pretty dark.

Post a picture. I think that belongs to the cottage (I bet it was off in November, improbable Meredith switches on the garden lights in tha season but who knows). These lamps are most on the other side, they may illuminate a bit the facede with Filomena's window, and they are not tall.
If you were a neutral observer, you should consider comparatively the balcony and the window, and, and you would realize there is no comparison in exposure. The balcony is not visible. Not compared to Filomena's window. And it's not only a matter of position, distance from potential viewers, side of the house and illumination; all these things are incomparable between the two ways, they are strikingly more favorable on the balcony. But it is also a matter of the nature of the place itself. Being on a balcony is not like being seen climbing into a window. The balcony is far, a person there does not attract any attention and there is even always an angle to hide completely, the spot is intrinsically favorable and safe.

 

[Machiavelli]

No, I said it wasn't the *main* problem, but it was certainly a factor. It is well known that sleep deprivation is a powerful interrogation tool (it was routinely used in totalitarian states).

It was not used here, because she was interrogated for only 2.5 hours before she accused an innocent.

She also said she (allegedy) slept two hours the night before, and she did a lot of things that people with clinical symptoms of sleep deprivation don't do.

Many of the reported events (being hit, for example, and I can imagine that it would be quite easy to make her terrified) easily justify her actions.

She released the 05:45 spontaneous statement after she had chamomille tee and pastries. And nobody hit her during her 05:45 statement (where she was not even interrogated).
In any event, it does not justify her hand written note and her claim of false memory.

The fact that the police decided not to videotape the interrogation, coupled with the knowledge of what the police can do in those situations (happens everywhere not just in Italy) makes me very suspicious of a witness who is not really independent (I'd very surprised if she was not already an aquaintance of at least some of the police people

)

The problem is that if you consider suspicious something which is normal, what you build a prejudice. (it's lke saying: the fact that your skin is dark/ that you speak Arabic, etc. it makes me suspicious).
The fact that police do not videotape a witness interrogation is not considered a suspicious even by the Italian system, and this takes place within the system. The same goes for the fact that Donnino is acquainted with the police: nobody thinks you are allowed to see Donnino as a liar with no evidence.

 

[Bill Williams]

You admit exhaustion was not the problem. Ok.

What happened in the Questura: she reportedly had a false memory, that's what she told in testimonies. (There is actually no other "event" she reported that could justify her actions).
Always bear in mind that Amanda Knox claims false memory.

The hand written note, moreover, is a maniulative false testimony certainly not written with the help of the police.

Also, I suppose you are unable to prove that Anna Donnino is not reliable as a witness. You know, she is very reliable, and she described very clearly what happened.

What Donnino testified to was that the room was in chaos when she entered, a full hour after the grilling had begun. And why not, Knox spoke little Italian and people were shouting at and hitting her.

Donnino herself described what she did next, she says she acted as if a mediator, which is different than simple translation. In many senses Donnino's unredacted testimony tends to support Knox's account.

 

[Bill Williams]

Post a picture. I think that belongs to the cottage (I bet it was off in November, improbable Meredith switches on the garden lights in tha season but who knows). These lamps are most on the other side, they may illuminate a bit the facede with Filomena's window, and they are not tall.
If you were a neutral observer, you should consider comparatively the balcony and the window, and, and you would realize there is no comparison in exposure. The balcony is not visible. Not compared to Filomena's window. And it's not only a matter of position, distance from potential viewers, side of the house and illumination; all these things are incomparable between the two ways, they are strikingly more favorable on the balcony. But it is also a matter of the nature of the place itself. Being on a balcony is not like being seen climbing into a window. The balcony is far, a person there does not attract any attention and there is even always an angle to hide completely, the spot is intrinsically favorable and safe.

Machiavelli - it is your turn to back up you declarations. RoseM has posted pictures as have I. Eventually you must substantiate your claims rather than saying without proof: "Who are you going to believe? My declarations or RoseM's pictures?"

 

[Machiavelli]

I've seen the pictures of the house. You can tell the scale from the one of the lawyer climbing. What else is there to research? Athletic people can do that climb in seconds. The same with the balcony. Just google one of those videos of people doing parcour if you need proof.

All that discussion about what was inside the burglar's head is just drivel. We can't know for sure his motivations to chose the window he did, but since both windows are equally accessible it's also irrelevant.

No it isn't irrelevant at all. Any investigator would see a huge red flag. In any place of the world. Any person (criminal) acts for a purpose and follows some logic, burglars are no exception. In fact, home break ins and thefts are extremely serial and predictable.
The FBI would see a huge red flag too.

Another factor to consider is the point of entry. Did the point of entry make sense? For example, did the offender enter the house through a second-story window, even though there was an easier, less conspicuous entrance that could have been used? Why did the offender increase his chance of being seen by potential witnesses who might alert authorities?

(from an article by John E. Douglas, Corinne Munn , on FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin, February 1992)

They would also point out autopsy finding, remerk that whenever there is a very violent murder, you need to be skeptical about burglary and think about "domestic" or "close" murderer and staging of a burglary.

 

[Bill Williams]

Don't you think the balcony is an issue with some importance?
Do you think Bill's photos of a street lamp it was ok as "evidence" to the issue?

Don't you think assessing this element (or any othr) should be thorough and require to research reality on the topic (distance of lamp...? how the balcony actually looks from..?)

The pictures clearly show the street lamp and a clear line of sight to the balcony. Your counter argument is, "pay no attention to the street lamp because I know better. " You are embarrassing yourself.