Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RoseMontague]

Oh, no. The sleep deprivation issue was not started by me, not at all. That was others' idea. Kaosium and you claimed that theory you and attempted to argue about evidence of sleep deprivation, and about a consequential link with Knox's written memoir. You were the ones bringing claims (blostered somehow by statements in Knox's book) and arguments about sleep deprivation, and playing the "experts" (without actually even a shred of experience).

I think a lot of people have experience with sleep deprivation at some point. I don't really function too well when I lack sleep. I don't think that Amanda was really thinking things through very well during this tag team interrogation. Just my opinion, of course, as a non expert but familiar with being sleep deprived from personal experience. Italy's supreme court=Criminals.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm so happy to see this. We can complain all day, but nothing's gonna change until Italian legal professionals speak up.

However, the article also shows why they won't...

"Maybe in another state, in another dimension, with another freedom - instead Zanetti said, according to a report today - I could say different things. But since I am a magistrate in his career, which has not resigned, I have say that I'm wrong and the Supreme Court is right.''

I'm trying to find Hellman's interview in Oggi.

I can't wait. Don't want to miss this one.

 

[christianahannah]

Rinaldi's claim was that it was Amanda's. Vinci disputed this and Massei passed on the question of the small shoe print on the pillow as moot as he believed Amanda was barefoot in any case.

Vinci also attributed the print to Rudy's right shoe while Boemia attributed the print to a female left shoe. Interesting in that all the other shoe prints of Rudy were attributed to his left shoe (not 100% certain of this but almost).

Massei declined to give an opinion as to what or who the shoe print belonged to, rather saying it could not be conclusive in either case and since it had no special markings could only be used for negative comparisons.

I don't think Massei believed Amanda was barefoot in all cases but rather that the prints which were attributed to her were of her bare feet.

There were several shoe prints on paper in Filomena's and Meredith's rooms which were not attributed to any one or any shoes taken (not that I am aware of). Interesting to know who those may have belonged to and if they had anything to do with the murder of Meredith.

 

[Machiavelli]

The point about the clothes was that the PLE didn't even collect them.

And what is the point?
You said tests on these clothes would have confirmed or denied Knox's story. You may explain us how they would deny or confirm Knox's story.
Nobody prevents you from unfolding your evience: tell the pieces of garments you are talking about, type of clothing, color etc.

(i.e there was a coloured scarf that matches the one described by Quintavalle...)

NancyS might also not know that there was a semen-like stain on the pillow, with Rudy's shoe print in it. Massei in his motivations report makes a big deal about why a stain on a pillow under Meredith's hips was NOT even tested to determine it's owner and its compostion - preferring instead to concentrate on the shoeprint, which at the time the PLE was convinced was Raffaele's.

It turned out to be Rudy's. And the alleged semen stain remains untested.

And maybe you can also recall us that Sollecito's defence (he admits that also in his book) refrained from requesting a test of the alleged semen stain for more than two years, because they were afraid of the result....
They refused to demand it because they were afraid!

They asked for it only when the evidence analysis phase was over, and the trial already had turned desperate to the defence. Ask them why did they wait for so long.

(at that point - Massei ruled, as by the law - the result would have been irrelevant)

 

[Machiavelli]

By the way, Bill, since you entered pictures "in a court", on "principle of completness" (as for Italian law) you should tell a bit more about those pictures. What do you know about them etc.
For example: there is a picture of a street lamp; you could tell the audience what is the distance between that lamp light and the balcony.

 

[christianahannah]

And what is the point?
You said tests on these clothes would have confirmed or denied Knox's story. You may explain us how they would deny or confirm Knox's story.
Nobody prevents you from unfolding your evience: tell the pieces of garments you are talking about, type of clothing, color etc.

(i.e there was a coloured scarf that matches the one described by Quintavalle...)

The thing about Quintavalle is that he described what Amanda was wearing when he testified about seeing her in his store. Whether he had seen her the morning of November 2 - or earlier - I can't say, but he describes her clothing this way:

She was wearing jeans, a gray coat, a scarf, a hat. ("I say hat; I don’t remember if it was a headset/cap or something else, however she had a head cover" page 73).

From photos of Amanda's bed those same clothing items appear to be on it. The colors may not be exactly as described (a photo can distort color), however, there are jeans, a scarf and what appears to be a gray coat.

I do not think Quintavalle is a liar (as some do), however, I concede he could be mistaken of the time when he saw Amanda.

And maybe you can also recall us that Sollecito's defence (he admits that also in his book) refrained from requesting a testing of the alleged semen stain for more than two years, because they were afraid of hte result....
They refused to demand it because they were afraid!

They asked for it only when the evidence analysis phase was closed and trial had turned already desperate to the defence. Ask them why did they wait for so long.

(at that point - Massei ruled, as by the law - the result would have been irrelevant)

As in any trial there is evidence which is admitted and not admitted according to law i.e., validity, timeliness, prejudicial effect, etc. I expect the same is true of the Italian courts and that protocol to law was followed here rather than conspiracy or an intent to frame innocent people.

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh, no. The sleep deprivation issue was not started by me, not at all. That was others' idea. Kaosium and you claimed that theory and attempted to argue about evidence of sleep deprivation, and about a consequential link with Knox's written memoir. You were the ones bringing claims (blostered somehow by statements in Knox's book) and arguments about sleep deprivation, and playing the "experts" (without actually even a shred of experience).

Ah, er.... ok.

Yes, it is Natural to assume that someone entering an all night interrogation at 11:30pm would be stressed and exhausted before she began. You claimed she wasn't and bolstered this claim by appealing to her writings, making claims no clinician in that field would ckaim without a detailed assessment. You were citing you own expertise to deny the obvious. You embarrassed yourself and have been back peddling ever since.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think a lot of people have experience with sleep deprivation at some point. I don't really function too well when I lack sleep. I don't think that Amanda was really thinking things through very well during this tag team interrogation. Just my opinion, of course, as a non expert but familiar with being sleep deprived from personal experience.

Yes but - besides other things - the false memory syndrome (as much as any fabricated memory induced through hypnosys) has one remarkable feature: the subject is convinced about the memory. The memory doesn't fade away nor disappear as the time passes, and it seems real, not 'unreal'.
It doesn't change its aspect and credibility.
The principle of hallucination is similar, the difference is hallucination is a present sensory perception that happens in real time, not a memory. When you are hallucinating, you cannot distinguish false perception from reality, unless you are used or prepared to it: hallucination may be bizarre in its content but seems real in perception, not false. The same way, a false memory is vivid, seems real, not false.
If you have a false memory you can't say "don't use that in court, it's not credible, it's dream-like, it's unreal", because you can't know that, you can't think that. You can't "change" and elaborate (as Knox dis) or "retract" (as some say) a false memory.

 

[Bill Williams]

By the way, Bill, since you entered pictures "in a court", on "principle of completness" (as for Italian law) you should tell a bit more about those pictures. What do you know about them etc.
For example: there is a picture of a street lamp; you could tell the audience what is the distance between that lamp light and the balcony.

Nice try. The photos speak for themselves. This is you yet again arguing against the obvious. Unless you have actual evidence, rather than rhetorical games, you should simply admit you were wrong.

you continue to embarrass yourself.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I'm so happy to see this. We can complain all day, but nothing's gonna change until Italian legal professionals speak up.

However, the article also shows why they won't...

"Maybe in another state, in another dimension, with another freedom - instead Zanetti said, according to a report today - I could say different things. But since I am a magistrate in his career, which has not resigned, I have say that I'm wrong and the Supreme Court is right.''

I'm trying to find Hellman's interview in Oggi.

Interesting article, do you believe there is some kind of internal struggle within the Supreme Court or Italian judiciary in general a kind of traditionalist vs. modernist? Change can only come from the Italian people; I don’t see this particular case as being a catalyst for change.

Hasn’t Judge Hellmann retired?

 

[Machiavelli]

Ah, er.... ok.

Yes, it is Natural to assume that someone entering an all night interrogation at 11:30pm would be stressed and exhausted before she began. You claimed she wasn't and bolstered this claim by appealing to her writings, making claims no clinician in that field would ckaim without a detailed assessment. You were citing you own expertise to deny the obvious. You embarrassed yourself and have been back peddling ever since.

It is not Natural to say exhausted or "sleep deprived" of a person who was first hanging out for a pizza, then decided to go to the Questura instead of laying in a soft confortable bed, who was studying on schoolbooks and doing "really difficult" homework for about an hour, than doing cartwheels (yoga, handstand and split).

 

[RoseMontague]

It is not Natural to say exhausted or "sleep deprived" of a person who was first hanging out for a pizza, then decided to go to the Questura instead of laying in a soft confortable bed, who was studying on schoolbooks and doing "really difficult" homework for about an hour, than doing cartwheels (yoga, handstand and split).

She was already sleep deprived and stressed heading into the 5th...

In his account of a conversation,* ‬intercepted* "‬environmental*"‬,* ‬which took place
Sunday,* ‬November* ‬4,* ‬2007* ‬in Perugia police headquarters reads:
*<< ‬The moment starts listening to the conversation,* ‬by the
writer,* ‬AMANDA SPEAKS ON THE PHONE,* ‬and says,* "‬I was the only one that was
with her and then they want me to squeeze your brain to tell me of the
things* ‬...* "‬.
Then she refers the interlocutor that there,* ‬with her,* ‬there's a guy that
helping her,* ‬she is cute and speaks a little* '‬too German,* ‬and then passes the
Raffaele phone to get him to talk with the person on the other end.* ‬Raphael* (‬in
English*)‬:* "‬I can not do anything,* ‬we're at the police station,* ‬they're squeezing the
mind* "(‬literally kicking the mind*)‬,* ‬after which the boy passes
the telephone again to Amanda.
Amanda:* "‬There is nothing you can do.* ‬Yesterday with the girls who lived
in the house,* ‬we tried to figure out what happened.* "‬>>
And also:* <<‬ And still recovering speech interrogation which has been
subject*)‬:* "‬I'm feeling bad* ‬...* ‬They shouted at me* ‬...* ‬I slept
only two hours last night* ‬...* ‬I'm very stressed* ‬...* "‬.*>>
And again:* <<‬ One of the girls begins immediately,* ‬saying,* "‬I do not feel
well at this time,* ‬jump to anything,* "‬and then,*" ‬How are you,* ‬Amanda*? "‬.
Amanda:* "‬I do not well treat me like a criminal.*" ‬>>

 

[Machiavelli]

Nice try. The photos speak for themselves. This is you yet again arguing against the obvious. Unless you have actual evidence, rather than rhetorical games, you should simply admit you were wrong.

you continue to embarrass yourself.

You flee !

You don't argue the "evidence". Because you don't have arguments. You run away. And you think that I (!) should "admit I were wrong" !

This is what I call folly.
It's your personal kind of "innocentista" folly.

Now I may also invite you to show us where (and explain how) Massei determined that the defendants were "psychopatologycally normal" (one of the "factual thing" you stated with certainty). So you can have another thing to run away from.... (and then claim that I should admit I'm wrong)

 

[MDDVS]

It is not Natural to say exhausted or "sleep deprived" of a person who was first hanging out for a pizza, then decided to go to the Questura instead of laying in a soft confortable bed, who was studying on schoolbooks and doing "really difficult" homework for about an hour, than doing cartwheels (yoga, handstand and split).

Anxiety is natural.

 

[RoseMontague]

Yes but - besides other things - the false memory syndrome (as much as any fabricated memory induced through hypnosys) has one remarkable feature: the subject is convinced about the memory. The memory doesn't fade away nor disappear as the time passes, and it seems real, not 'unreal'.
It doesn't change its aspect and credibility.
The principle of hallucination is similar, the difference is hallucination is a present sensory perception that happens in real time, not a memory. When you are hallucinating, you cannot distinguish false perception from reality, unless you are used or prepared to it: hallucination may be bizarre in its content but seems real in perception, not false. The same way, a false memory is vivid, seems real, not false.
If you have a false memory you can't say "don't use that in court, it's not credible, it's dream-like, it's unreal", because you can't know that, you can't think that. You can't "change" and elaborate (as Knox dis) or "retract" (as some say) a false memory.

I remember things wrong sometimes. Ooooops. People do that all the time. Are you an expert in this as well?

 

[RoseMontague]

You flee !

You don't argue the "evidence". Because you don't have arguments. You run away. And you think that I (!) should "admit I were wrong" !

This is what I call folly.
It's your personal kind of "innocentista" folly.

Now I may also invite you to show us where (and explain how) Massei determined that the defendants were "psychopatologycally normal" (one of the "factual thing" you stated with certainty). So you can have another thing to run away from.... (and then claim that I should admit I'm wrong)

You should talk. I am still waiting on this big file of documented evidence of Amanda's sexual attraction to Meredith that you claimed.

 

[Machiavelli]

She was already sleep deprived and stressed heading into the 5th...

I don't know what you are quoting. (what document is that?)

But your assertion has nothing to do with my point. It makes no difference as for the nature of false memory.
Here we are talking about false memory, not about generic feeling exhausted or not being at 100% of mental performance. Do you see the difference?

 

[christianahannah]

She was already sleep deprived and stressed heading into the 5th...

In his account of a conversation,* ‬intercepted* "‬environmental*"‬,* ‬which took place
Sunday,* ‬November* ‬4,* ‬2007* ‬in Perugia police headquarters reads:
*<< ‬The moment starts listening to the conversation,* ‬by the
writer,* ‬AMANDA SPEAKS ON THE PHONE,* ‬and says,* "‬I was the only one that was
with her and then they want me to squeeze your brain to tell me of the
things* ‬...* "‬.
Then she refers the interlocutor that there,* ‬with her,* ‬there's a guy that
helping her,* ‬she is cute and speaks a little* '‬too German,* ‬and then passes the
Raffaele phone to get him to talk with the person on the other end.* ‬Raphael* (‬in
English*)‬:* "‬I can not do anything,* ‬we're at the police station,* ‬they're squeezing the
mind* "(‬literally kicking the mind*)‬,* ‬after which the boy passes
the telephone again to Amanda.
Amanda:* "‬There is nothing you can do.* ‬Yesterday with the girls who lived
in the house,* ‬we tried to figure out what happened.* "‬>>
And also:* <<‬ And still recovering speech interrogation which has been
subject*)‬:* "‬I'm feeling bad* ‬...* ‬They shouted at me* ‬...* ‬I slept
only two hours last night* ‬...* ‬I'm very stressed* ‬...* "‬.*>>
And again:* <<‬ One of the girls begins immediately,* ‬saying,* "‬I do not feel
well at this time,* ‬jump to anything,* "‬and then,*" ‬How are you,* ‬Amanda*? "‬.
Amanda:* "‬I do not well treat me like a criminal.*" ‬>>

I think the above demonstrates in concrete what someone would sound like if sleep deprived or stressed. Or it is Google translate. Almost the same I imagine.

 

[Machiavelli]

I remember things wrong sometimes. Ooooops. People do that all the time. Are you an expert in this as well?

You often remember about black people entering your home, then raping and killing someone in the room next to yours?

 

[RoseMontague]

In his account of a conversation,* ‬intercepted* "‬environmental*"‬,* ‬which took place
Sunday,* ‬November* ‬4,* ‬2007* ‬in Perugia police headquarters reads:
*<< ‬The moment starts listening to the conversation,* ‬by the
writer,* ‬AMANDA SPEAKS ON THE PHONE,* ‬and says,* "‬I was the only one that was
with her and then they want me to squeeze your brain to tell me of the
things* ‬...* "‬.
Then she refers the interlocutor that there,* ‬with her,* ‬there's a guy that
helping her,* ‬she is cute and speaks a little* '‬too German,* ‬and then passes the
Raffaele phone to get him to talk with the person on the other end.* ‬Raphael* (‬in
English*)‬:* "‬I can not do anything,* ‬we're at the police station,* ‬they're squeezing the
mind* "(‬literally kicking the mind*)‬,* ‬after which the boy passes
the telephone again to Amanda.
Amanda:* "‬There is nothing you can do.* ‬Yesterday with the girls who lived
in the house,* ‬we tried to figure out what happened.* "‬>>
And also:* <<‬ And still recovering speech interrogation which has been
subject*)‬:* "‬I'm feeling bad* ‬...* ‬They shouted at me* ‬...* ‬I slept
only two hours last night* ‬...* ‬I'm very stressed* ‬...* "‬.*>>
And again:* <<‬ One of the girls begins immediately,* ‬saying,* "‬I do not feel
well at this time,* ‬jump to anything,* "‬and then,*" ‬How are you,* ‬Amanda*? "‬.
Amanda:* "‬I do not well treat me like a criminal.*" ‬>>

I think the above demonstrates in concrete what someone would sound like if sleep deprived or stressed. Or it is Google translate. Almost the same I imagine.

Quite so. LOL.