Expert: Michael Jackson went 60 days without real sleep

Natan

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Los Angeles (CNN) -- Michael Jackson died while preparing to set a world record for the most successful concert run, but he unknowingly set another record that led to his death. Jackson may be the only human ever to go two months without REM -- rapid eye movement -- sleep, which is vital to keep the brain and body alive. The 60 nights of propofol infusions Dr. Conrad Murray said he gave Jackson to treat his insomnia is something a sleep expert says no one had ever undergone.

I find the subject of sleep pretty interesting from a medicinal and personal viewpoint. I recently indeed read in an article lab rats die after like 5 weeks of being kept awake and upon autopsy no actual cause could be found. It is still largely unknown what sleep exactly does to the human body.

I noticed the mentioning of extreme memory loss of Jackson, being unable to remember the words of songs he had sung for decades. It also reminded me of some Vietnamese students I knew and who stayed up all night studying, with of course as result that this was largely useless as you need sleep to probably let your neurons configure themselves to actually "save" this information somehow. I also told this to my wife when I met her and she had to admit that afterwards she only studied half a day and slept properly both at noon and at night and had much better exam results.

There are also examples of famous inventors who came up with their own sleep schedules, Edison and Buckminster Fuller probably the most well known. These schedules all seem to have been total failures.

I guess now we at least know how long humans can do without REM sleep. A bit more than 60 days it seems.
 
Is the neccessity of REM sleep proven, though?
According to wikipedia:

It has been documented that depriving rats of REM sleep specifically leads to death in 3 to 8 weeks (which doesn't happen with depriving test animals of other specific sleep phases), but it has also been documented that humans survive without REM sleep for longer than other animals. There have been tests on humans in which REM sleep was deprived, and all subjects in the study had to quit before the study could run to completion. Obviously, scientists cannot ethically experiment how long it takes for lack of sleep to kill a person.
 
Interesting; any clue on the organic causes?

Drugs and their side effects?

Keep that in mind if you ever need to consider a nose transplant.

Or want to change from a black male to a white female. ;o) (see the smiley with the zero where the nose used to be? )
 
This might help to explain Jackson's slightly unusual outlook on life.
Paranoia and hallucinations start after about 72 hours, IIRC.

He far outlasted various Chinese and Korean gamers, though.
Well done him?
 
The gamers die from a different cause, I think - they're sitting down for too long, causing clots to form in their legs and travel up to their brains, causing a stroke.
 
The gamers die from a different cause, I think - they're sitting down for too long, causing clots to form in their legs and travel up to their brains, causing a stroke.

I believe that it would actually be a pulmonary embolism (blood clot in lungs) Clots that form in leg veins will go to lungs and hit vessels too small to pass through before they get to the brain.
 
I believe that it would actually be a pulmonary embolism (blood clot in lungs) Clots that form in leg veins will go to lungs and hit vessels too small to pass through before they get to the brain.

Yes, I think you're right.
 
I've gone eight years without normal sleep. If it weren't for trazadone I'd never sleep.

Wikipedia suggests that trazadone is "sleep inducing", i.e. it makes you fall asleep, and then you sleep all by yourself and have a natural sleep pattern.

Propofol only makes you sleep as long as you're being given it. i.e. the body rapidly filters it out of the blood, and you need a certain saturation in the blood to stay asleep.

The procedures is as follows: You get an injection (and from experience, that makes your world go black within about two minutes), and a subsequent infusion with a lower concentration to counteract the absorption in your body. Once the infusion is removed, you're awake after a short time. That sleep, however, appears to be far from natural. (It's been maybe half an hour for me, so no personal input on how refreshing it was or anything.)
 
I guess now we at least know how long humans can do without REM sleep. A bit more than 60 days it seems.

People can survive quite a bit longer than that. Those with Fatal Familial Insomnia, a hereditary prion disease, go into a state in which they can't get past the beginning, nodding off, stages of sleep. They have what appears to be normal (if severe) insomnia that is untreatable and basically go crazy over a period of months. They then lose the ability to fall asleep altogether, which lasts for three months or so, before they succumb to dementia and die over the next six months. An average of nine months without sleep before dying, basically.
 
People can survive quite a bit longer than that. Those with Fatal Familial Insomnia, a hereditary prion disease, go into a state in which they can't get past the beginning, nodding off, stages of sleep. They have what appears to be normal (if severe) insomnia that is untreatable and basically go crazy over a period of months. They then lose the ability to fall asleep altogether, which lasts for three months or so, before they succumb to dementia and die over the next six months. An average of nine months without sleep before dying, basically.

I was going to post about this. Always remember a really scary documentary about a case of this years ago. Even when the person was given drugs to induce an almost coma like state, brain waves showed they were not asleep.
 
People can survive quite a bit longer than that. Those with Fatal Familial Insomnia, a hereditary prion disease, go into a state in which they can't get past the beginning, nodding off, stages of sleep. They have what appears to be normal (if severe) insomnia that is untreatable and basically go crazy over a period of months. They then lose the ability to fall asleep altogether, which lasts for three months or so, before they succumb to dementia and die over the next six months. An average of nine months without sleep before dying, basically.

Something I've wondered about Fatal Familiar Insomnia... The popular articles I've read about it seem to start with the assumption that the only thing it causes is insomnia, and all other symptoms--the dementia, etc.--are due to the insomnia. Is that true or just a distortion in the popular press? How do they know the disorder itself isn't causing the other symptoms as well?
 
Something I've wondered about Fatal Familiar Insomnia... The popular articles I've read about it seem to start with the assumption that the only thing it causes is insomnia, and all other symptoms--the dementia, etc.--are due to the insomnia. Is that true or just a distortion in the popular press? How do they know the disorder itself isn't causing the other symptoms as well?

It's a prion disease - it turns your brain into mush. The insomnia probably aggravates some symptoms, but the disease proper is the cause of the degeneration. The insomnia is a symptom.
 
It's a prion disease - it turns your brain into mush. The insomnia probably aggravates some symptoms, but the disease proper is the cause of the degeneration. The insomnia is a symptom.

That sounds much more logical, but just as one example, the Wikipedia article that jasonpatterson linked gives the standard popular cause and effect: "FFI has no known cure and involves progressively worsening insomnia, which leads to hallucinations, delirium, and confusional states like that of dementia." As usual, it's saying the insomnia is what leads to those things, not that FFI causes insomnia and those things.
 
That sounds much more logical, but just as one example, the Wikipedia article that jasonpatterson linked gives the standard popular cause and effect: "FFI has no known cure and involves progressively worsening insomnia, which leads to hallucinations, delirium, and confusional states like that of dementia." As usual, it's saying the insomnia is what leads to those things, not that FFI causes insomnia and those things.

First, given the rarity of the disease, the exact cause/effect links are probably speculative (We know lack of sleep can cause hallucinations and paranoia, but turn you into a drooling vegetable? Doubt it.)

Now, looking at the http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/br...ses/fatal_familial_insomnia.html?qt=&sc=&alt= Merck Manual:

The disease usually begins between the ages of 40 and 60 but may begin in a person's late 30s. At first, people may have minor difficulties falling asleep and occasional muscle twitching, spasms, and stiffness. Eventually, they cannot sleep. Occasionally, the sleep signs are difficult to detect. Other changes include a rapid heart rate and dementia. Death usually occurs about 7 to 36 months after symptoms begin.

The lack of sleep is likely to be detrimental to your state of consciousness and probably causes problematic permanent changes to the brain, but that's secondary to the infectious agent that's destroying tissue.
 

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