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Merged Paula Deen: Use the N word, get the axe

(much snipped)
When I meet people who take their garbage down the road and simply dump it off the hillside, and who neglect and abuse their kids, and who take no care for their own property, and who pour diesel fuel on their land to kill fire ants, and who keep their dogs tied to trees in the summer heat, and who poison their neighbors' animals with antifreeze because they're angry at them, and who don't bother to cover themselves properly in public when they ought to, to me those people are white trash. That's what the word means to me.

Fair enough. But we live in a world where applying and labeling that stereotype is fine, but when the person you describe is black, we have no equivalent, acceptable label. Perhaps we could get by if we just dropped the color scheme and referred to both colors, white or black, as simply "trash?"

After all, whites don't have a monopoly on slovenly or abuse of the commons.

I have heard a replacement term, used in Detroit, by calling someone "ghetto." Maybe that would do. I took it to mean: of poor character and lousy impulse control, conniving, morally bankrupt and suffering the consequences of bad life-choices - perhaps with a dash of inherently stupid because they can't fathom they are the author of their status.
 
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@Piggy - I ain't gonna flame, and I appreciate your candor. I totally get what you're saying about slurs not always being empty - to tie it to the top of the thread, if all Paula Deen had done was use this slur in the context of the guy who robbed her, could she fairly be called out as a racist? We all have ugly thoughts, and we've all had 'em directed at us.

That being said, I do have two points for thought:

piggy said:
And if I expunge that word from my vocabulary, I'll simply need a new one to put in its place.

Which would at a minimum prevent people from misunderstanding you - I don't think it's wrong to have a handy collection of slurs, the funnier the better, for use among intimates to blow off frustration and describe what we see. I sure do. The problem with THAT WORD is, as this thread shows, the terrible baggage that goes with it. Most of that baggage SHOULD be allowed to die; it's not a choice between constantly opening old wounds (which that word does) and our being allowed to express our irritation with the jerks of the world of every racial stripe (which we are).

I basically AGREE with you that sentiments like "we shouldn't be judged on the color of our skin" are true but miss some underlying point, which is that we as people naturally spot trends and need to be able to comment on them, particularly among confederates (pun intended) without folks jumping down our throat. Note that I'm as blue as blue gets (or so I think) but I'm totally with you on this.

Now, all THAT being said, my second point is a critique: In your "white trash" example, the caricature you drew was a total trainwreck - everything they were doing was objectively bad, up and down the ladder. They deserve an epithet. But in your contrasting example, you drilled down to little more than fashion choice - the first target of your epithets poison the land and abuse animals. The second target is a vulgar crotch-grabber. Doesn't look equivalent to me.

You DID say that descriptions would be incendiary, so I'll grant that you may have just been holding back so as to not invite even more flaming, but those particular examples don't make your point as well as you could make it. When I see kids dressed like that, I think "stupid teenagers," not "******."

I don't know if the Gainesville blacks treat their dogs better or beat their kids less; I tend to think the numbers run about even. But while your POINT is a fair one, your EXAMPLE invites easy criticism - the criticism that in your book a black jaywalker gets a racial slur just the same as a white child abuser.

I don't assume that to be your feeling; I get where you were going there, I think. I guess my own point would be that we SHOULD be talking about what we think about race and what we see with our eyes; making it a taboo subject isn't helping in 2013. Because it's SO EASY to be misunderstood, however, we need to choose examples with care, not because of the p.c. police, but because folks of good cheer might give offense where none is intended.

Hope that isn't too flamey. I for one appreciate you bringing up the issue. I'm big, big into issues of race relations, but I sure don't deny the thoughts that I have in my own head, many of which are not kind and probably wouldn't help the "dialogue" if they were broadcast unfiltered.
 
I have heard a replacement term, used in Detroit, by calling someone "ghetto." Maybe that would do. I took it to mean: of poor character and lousy impulse control, conniving, morally bankrupt and suffering the consequences of bad life-choices - perhaps with a dash of inherently stupid because they can't fathom they are the author of their status.

Seconded. That term is freely used in the San Francisco of my prowling by both black and white folk, alone or in mixed company, in pretty much the way marplots describes it.

"Ghetto fabulous" is in the mix too, suggesting cheap and tawdry, or the silk purse from the sow's ear - the Hyundai with the expensive paintjob and spinners. An insult with both racial and class connotations, but not "fighting words" like the others we've been discussing.
 
Fair enough. But we live in a world where applying and labeling that stereotype is fine, but when the person you describe is black, we have no equivalent, acceptable label. Perhaps we could get by if we just dropped the color scheme and referred to both colors, white or black, as simply "trash?"

After all, whites don't have a monopoly on slovenly or abuse of the commons.

I have heard a replacement term, used in Detroit, by calling someone "ghetto." Maybe that would do. I took it to mean: of poor character and lousy impulse control, conniving, morally bankrupt and suffering the consequences of bad life-choices - perhaps with a dash of inherently stupid because they can't fathom they are the author of their status.

The term that has replaced the word-which-shall-not-be-spoken (the hate that dare not speak its name?) around here is "thug".

For instance, there was a local barbecue joint that had horrible food but which stayed open for decades b/c it was a hang-out for local "Sons of the Confederacy" and other such folk, and when the "thugs" started daring to patronize the establishment recently, the owners simply shut it down. There was much chatter in the comments section of the local paper's website about how the "thugs" had made the place so that nobody wanted to go, and of course others saying good riddance.
 
Thug isn't bad. Here it has "criminal" (maybe even organized criminal) attached more than miscreant and much more than maladroit/failed.

I'm getting the sense that "white trash" and "******" have an implied genetic flaw, as if the condition is inborn and inescapable. Maybe that's a residue of linking the words to race, I'm not sure.

(Typing what I want and letting the auto-censor kick in is OK, right?)
 
@Piggy - I ain't gonna flame, and I appreciate your candor. I totally get what you're saying about slurs not always being empty - to tie it to the top of the thread, if all Paula Deen had done was use this slur in the context of the guy who robbed her, could she fairly be called out as a racist? We all have ugly thoughts, and we've all had 'em directed at us.

That being said, I do have two points for thought:



Which would at a minimum prevent people from misunderstanding you - I don't think it's wrong to have a handy collection of slurs, the funnier the better, for use among intimates to blow off frustration and describe what we see. I sure do. The problem with THAT WORD is, as this thread shows, the terrible baggage that goes with it. Most of that baggage SHOULD be allowed to die; it's not a choice between constantly opening old wounds (which that word does) and our being allowed to express our irritation with the jerks of the world of every racial stripe (which we are).

I basically AGREE with you that sentiments like "we shouldn't be judged on the color of our skin" are true but miss some underlying point, which is that we as people naturally spot trends and need to be able to comment on them, particularly among confederates (pun intended) without folks jumping down our throat. Note that I'm as blue as blue gets (or so I think) but I'm totally with you on this.

Now, all THAT being said, my second point is a critique: In your "white trash" example, the caricature you drew was a total trainwreck - everything they were doing was objectively bad, up and down the ladder. They deserve an epithet. But in your contrasting example, you drilled down to little more than fashion choice - the first target of your epithets poison the land and abuse animals. The second target is a vulgar crotch-grabber. Doesn't look equivalent to me.

You DID say that descriptions would be incendiary, so I'll grant that you may have just been holding back so as to not invite even more flaming, but those particular examples don't make your point as well as you could make it. When I see kids dressed like that, I think "stupid teenagers," not "******."

I don't know if the Gainesville blacks treat their dogs better or beat their kids less; I tend to think the numbers run about even. But while your POINT is a fair one, your EXAMPLE invites easy criticism - the criticism that in your book a black jaywalker gets a racial slur just the same as a white child abuser.

I don't assume that to be your feeling; I get where you were going there, I think. I guess my own point would be that we SHOULD be talking about what we think about race and what we see with our eyes; making it a taboo subject isn't helping in 2013. Because it's SO EASY to be misunderstood, however, we need to choose examples with care, not because of the p.c. police, but because folks of good cheer might give offense where none is intended.

Hope that isn't too flamey. I for one appreciate you bringing up the issue. I'm big, big into issues of race relations, but I sure don't deny the thoughts that I have in my own head, many of which are not kind and probably wouldn't help the "dialogue" if they were broadcast unfiltered.

No, that's not too flamey, and I see where you're coming from and I largely see things the same way.

One important clarification....

I did opt not to give a description of group/cultural behavior for the latter term, as I did for "white trash". I felt that would have just been prodding a hornets' nest.

So instead, I simply offered one example of a time when I recently encountered someone who, it seemed to me, was inviting the description.

That's why there was such a difference, the latter much more superficial than the former.

And in practice, I simply do not use the latter word, while I do at times use the term "white trash". In fact, I sometimes referred to a hypothetical Palin presidency as the "white trash White House". I don't believe that the Palins are, strictly speaking, white trash, but when you've got someone with national political aspirations who comes out with statements such as recommending that the president "grow a bigger stick", well, one can hardly resist the hyperbole.

Around here, there are areas which are highly integrated, but a large portion of this culture is still segregated, not just in terms of real estate, but in terms of the culture itself. So I'm not that disturbed by the idea of having separate terms.

When you consider my background, I think you'd have to say that I'm more enlightened than most who grew up when and where I did.

I was born on the Florida panhandle back before the resorts when there was nothing much there but shrimp boats. My mom dropped out of high school at 15, had her first child at 16, my dad was in various sorts of law enforcement.

Grew up in a red-clay milltown in Georgia in the '70s during the decline of the US textile industry.

The cultures were utterly separate.

And the word back then was not considered impolite in any company outside the pulpit. When we counted eeny-meeny-minie-moe, it wasn't a tiger we caught by the toe, for instance. That's just how I learned that rhyme.

And getting the end of a joint too wet wasn't referred to as "fish-lipping".

Some members of my family were not racist, but many were. I recall eating in a Dairy Queen in Valdosta with my grandmother when a local football team and their cheerleaders came in. An enormous teenager walked by our booth, and my grandmother said in a perfectly normal volume, "That's the biggest ****** I've ever seen," just as though she'd said it about a truck or a rabbit.

My step-father's mother had inherited some rental property from her husband, and she used to say, "Well, I gotta go down and collect the rent from my n*gras".

So that's where I come from.

I like to think I've come a long way from there, even if there is still here, and here is in too many ways still there.

ETA: Most people from other parts of the country/world are shocked when I tell them that the Klan had a float in our town's Christmas parade.
 
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I will give one example from recent memory, tho…. If you see a young man standing in the median of highway 60 in downtown Gainesville, GA, in the summer, and he has on 3 shirts, a hat on backwards, uncut hair, pants falling down around his thighs exposing his boxers, boots with no laces and the tongues hanging out, gold in his teeth, grabbing his crotch, and walking out into traffic rather than use the crosswalk at the light just 20 yards down the road, it's difficult for me to conclude that he has not chosen a lifestyle that is accurately described by that word.

Interesting that you give no indication of colour of this person (I suspect intentionally, if so, clever)

Perhaps there ought to be a universal word to describe such people regardless of their colour.... scumbag perhaps?
 
Interesting that you give no indication of colour of this person (I suspect intentionally, if so, clever)

Perhaps there ought to be a universal word to describe such people regardless of their colour.... scumbag perhaps?

I can go with that.
 
Then why do they use it when talking to each other? Is ending it in an "a" somehow more acceptable than the traditional "er"??

I call baloney.

Where I am from in Australia there is a term used with great affection among mates. That same term will get you slapped by your mother and most any other woman and punched by just about any guy that isn't a mate.
I can't type the term here because the auto censor wont allow it. English rhyming slang for it would be 'Berk' which is a shortened version of 'Berkshire hunt'. It's the hunt part that rhymes.
Just because a word is used among friends doesn't mean it's acceptable. My American wife about passed out when she first heard a couple of friends describe each other as "that ugly old ****".
 
Where I am from in Australia there is a term used with great affection among mates. That same term will get you slapped by your mother and most any other woman and punched by just about any guy that isn't a mate.
I can't type the term here because the auto censor wont allow it. English rhyming slang for it would be 'Berk' which is a shortened version of 'Berkshire hunt'. It's the hunt part that rhymes.
Just because a word is used among friends doesn't mean it's acceptable. My American wife about passed out when she first heard a couple of friends describe each other as "that ugly old ****".


Ah, being a kiwi, I know the term. I remember a joke using that term that did the rounds a few years ago;

Q: How can you tell the difference between a Police Horse and Racehorse?

A: A racehorse doesn't have a **** halfway along its back.
 
You never just fry up a hamburger patty and eat it without a bun?

Anyways around my house there is a distinction.

In UK english a hamburger without a bun is a beefburger, mind you we'd never really call a hamburger (with a bun) a sandwich, despite what McDonalds would insist upon.
 
No chance, The n-word story is just a cover. The Network was told that Homeland Security regarded her recipes as an Act of Terrorism.
You just haven't tried a deep-fried stick of butter. mmm mmm.

Now if they just decide to also 86 the Neelys who imo typify most every negative stereotype.
 
So...we're going with the idea that the "plantation wedding" with black servants dressed like slaves didn't happen, or are folks just not aware of that?

You could say that the word was a problem for, say, Michael Richards. But this was much more like Dr. Laura, where the word was actually mild, compared to other things she said.
That, and both Niger and Nigeria need to be renamed.
 
So she has racist tendencies. Fine. But can she cook? It's that latter bit that should determine whether she is employable on a cooking show.

So what's next? Do I get to fire someone because I don't care for their opinion on Obamacare? Poor, or even offensive opinions shouldn't be the basis for firing someone.

If the guy who drives the school bus is a Creationist, or thinks reptilians have taken over the major corporations, should I push to have him fired?

Racists: Mock them, pity them, debate them. But fire them? Now who's discriminating?

She got fired from a Cooking show not a restaurant. A cooking show that is supported by sponsors and audience members.

None of your examples are parallel to that situation. She got fired because now she looks like a big fat racist pig and who wants to get cooking advice from that.

Calling her chef "my little monkey" using the N word and having fantasies of groups of black men in old fashioned server uniforms being a snazzy way to have a wedding is just a ginormous serving of Southern racism
 
She got fired from a Cooking show not a restaurant. A cooking show that is supported by sponsors and audience members.

None of your examples are parallel to that situation. She got fired because now she looks like a big fat racist pig and who wants to get cooking advice from that. Calling her chef "my little monkey" using the N word and having fantasies of groups of black men in old fashioned server uniforms being a snazzy way to have a wedding is just a ginormous serving of Southern racism

To me, the highlighted part is a kind of magical thinking. It's the idea that a character taint - something that disgusts us - transfers to unrelated things. I think of it as in the same category of not wearing a hat a serial killer wore, or not wanting a pedophile to work on your car.

The "cure" for these like-makes-like superstitions is to get something blessed or have it exorcised, or undergo a purification ritual. I absolutely do think that someone's cooking skills are not related to their religion or politics or sexual preferences or racism. But if her fans evaporate, she's toast anyhow.
 
To me, the highlighted part is a kind of magical thinking. It's the idea that a character taint - something that disgusts us - transfers to unrelated things. I think of it as in the same category of not wearing a hat a serial killer wore, or not wanting a pedophile to work on your car.

The "cure" for these like-makes-like superstitions is to get something blessed or have it exorcised, or undergo a purification ritual. I absolutely do think that someone's cooking skills are not related to their religion or politics or sexual preferences or racism. But if her fans evaporate, she's toast anyhow.


We'll the Food Network isn't going to waste money on your social experiment. She's offensive. She borders on a Southern parody anyway, which is probably a lot of her appeal but she crossed a line she should have never crossed.

Btw watch her apology, she's totally focused on herself and the throws out a few bits of "hurting others" she makes a ton of excuses and then says "I know that's no excuse" well duh, then why did you say it in the first place?

Some of her fans will stay of course, but many of her fans are going to be repulsed by her.

Same goes with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski. Brilliant otherwise, but you often think as a consumer "Am I going to continue putting money in their pocket?"

She's got plenty of money. Let her go away and do whatever she wants to her racists heart's desire.
 
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To me, the highlighted part is a kind of magical thinking. It's the idea that a character taint - something that disgusts us - transfers to unrelated things. I think of it as in the same category of not wearing a hat a serial killer wore, or not wanting a pedophile to work on your car.
No, it would be more like watching OJ Simpson host a sports TV show. It wouldn't surprise me if he could be entertaining, and certainly he has significant knowledge of at least football, but I would not be interested at all in watching him. I would also look askance at any network that employed him in such a capacity.

Your "hat" example is just silly; though I know the better example of Hitler's mustache style is still looked down upon today, it's a big-time "who cares" situation - even current Nazis aren't similarly sculpting their facial hair. In the case of a pedophile mechanic, I suppose I would wonder how you'd even know the social/criminal history of your mechanic. It's true that I'd tend to avoid giving my custom to people I know to be pedophiles (or other criminals), but I don't run background checks on everyone I meet and certainly not on every employee of businesses with which I come into contact.

In other words, I think you're trying a little too hard to find fault with this woman's firing. Image matters way too much in the entertainment business (and that's the business in which The Food Network competes; they're not selling food!) to set aside issues that could tarnish a personality's public reputation.
 

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