Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Antony]

Really, surreal, I was asking a question ?????? I don't believe I can trust your answer, sorry, next.

You ask the question about how the clasp can be contaminated by 4 different DNA profiles, and assert that that multiplies the unlikelihood of contamination by a single profile - it doesn't.

It never occurs to you to ask the equivalent question as to how the 4 profiles could have arrived on the clasp other than by contamination. Why is this? This really does multiply the probability against it.

 

[Antony]

Yes, but my question was if it were contamination, say, did it have to happen 4 different times to the same piece, because those odds would seem astronomical, or could one contamination somehow leave 4 different profiles?

That's because your thinking is conclusion-driven. Why do you try to suggest that contamination is in some way unlikely, when the alternative is more unlikely by orders of magnitude?

 

[Briars]

Be prepared for this informed post to sail right past the likes of Briars. The whole conversation is ridiculous.

Is anyone putting the blame on pot? Three dysfunctional young people combined their angst into one fatal attack. Jealousy , sexual motive, childhood pain. and the thrill of finally getting to act out a knife fantasy was motive enough. Pot couldn't blur the memory and I agree could not influence a normal person. Aggression and group killings happen for no apparent reason with normal looking youths involved.

 

[Bill Williams]

Is anyone putting the blame on pot? Three dysfunctional young people combined their angst into one fatal attack. Jealousy , sexual motive, childhood pain. and the thrill of finally getting to act out a knife fantasy was motive enough. Pot couldn't blur the memory and I agree could not influence a normal person. Aggression and group killings happen for no apparent reason with normal looking youths involved.

Briars... will all due respect - there is NO judicial body in Italy which has tried this case which agrees with you.

1) Massei's court rejected "dysfunctional young people" completely as a reason for this crime, and Massei was the one who convicted them! For heaven's sake, have you ever even read Massei?

2) The recent ISC also disagrees with you. That court has just incurred the wrath of one of John Kercher's friends (Piers Morgan) for suggesting this was a "sex game gone wrong," a game involving Meredith as a participant. Pier Morgan, understandably, finds that notion repugnant.​

You've just offered up your own theory above. Based on..... what? A ouiji board?

You do know this is a serious allegation don't you? You seem to be more interested in defaming two innocents with allegations that even the Italian courts have either not alleged or have actually debunked.

Why?

Besides, the conversation was about a person with substance abuse issues and their abilities to be a witness to a crime. And you have successfully NOT dealt with it but you do what guilters always do - ignore the implications of what someone like NancyS said, and then change the subject.

 

[Dan O.]

Damn. I typed up a long reply already to this and then lost internet connection when I went to submit. Basically, I don't believe we are talking about the same thing here, what I am saying, I'm sure your aware, Rudi's footprint leaving the door means he most likely did not lock it from that position. The footsteps got out to the front door, move around a bit but do not head back to the room even when test with luminol, fine. Now you say you have some missing prints, Grinder thinks maybe he went for a stroll outside, fine as well but either way, there is no sign of prints returning, if this were the case, why didn't the prosecution bring this up during the trial? There has to be an explanation, the door being able to lock while open, (I'm aware neither of us think this is possible), but that would be an excellent example, you wouldn't bring that up because the defense would have an excellent reply to it. I'm still not sure if you know what I'm talking about here, but let me know.

I know exactly what you are talking about. You are claiming that the forensics were perfect and that if Rudy ever tried to walk back down that hall the expert trackers would have spotted the trace of blood from his sneakers.

You are making the classic claim that absense of evidence is evidence of absense. I claim and showed through the prosecution's own photographic evidence that the forensics were crap. They completely missed the bloody shoe print by the pink bag that was visible in even the low resolution photos. If they can't see that print, how can you expect them to see a tiny mark like what was left at "Y" or "H" only more faded.

So you say luminol would have seen the faintest trace. Again, you are asserting perfection in a bunch that have demonstrated incompetence. They over applied the luminol to the point of washing away the traces, they didn't leave the lights out so they couldn't get dark adapted which is necessary to see faint traces. And, they only photographed the large full footprint sized splotches so they may not have even been looking for anything smaller.

It is entirely possible for Rudy to have walked back down that hall to retrieve the keys and cell phones from Meredith's purse, lock Meredith's door, walk back to the front door, unlock it and leave. He may even have left evidence of this additional crossing where he stopped to lock Meredith's door and an additional drip from his wet pant leg fell on the earlier print at marker 3.

 

[Matthew Best]

So, you consider anyone who uses heroin daily is a junkie, that's ok, but I doubt they do.

This is getting moronic. Is there anyone in the world who doesn't consider a daily user of heroin to be a junkie? Really?

 

[Briars]

Briars... will all due respect - there is NO judicial body in Italy which has tried this case which agrees with you.

1) Massei's court rejected "dysfunctional young people" completely as a reason for this crime, and Massei was the one who convicted them! For heaven's sake, have you ever even read Massei?

2) The recent ISC also disagrees with you. That court has just incurred the wrath of one of John Kercher's friends (Piers Morgan) for suggesting this was a "sex game gone wrong," a game involving Meredith as a participant. Pier Morgan, understandably, finds that notion repugnant.​

You've just offered up your own theory above. Based on..... what? A ouiji board?

You do know this is a serious allegation don't you? You seem to be more interested in defaming two innocents with allegations that even the Italian courts have either not alleged or have actually debunked.

Why?

Besides, the conversation was about a person with substance abuse issues and their abilities to be a witness to a crime. And you have successfully NOT dealt with it but you do what guilters always do - ignore the implications of what someone like NancyS said, and then change the subject.

I have dealt with it at length Bill . The square was empty , it was not a place to hang out . He was not so out of it if he read the paper daily.I listened to a coherent interview on utube with him He would be able to identify a couple hanging around for no good reason on his turf. You have no problem with your Mignini bashing blogger source who is wanted for separate domestic incidents. Quoted in books and relied a upon for evidence on police corruption. To each his own I believe Curatolo thanks. His testimony also fits with the overwhelming evidence that was ignored by Hellman. I think we will hear more of it in the months to come. Wasn't there evidence of bruising by different sized hands for example. It should be interesting.

 

[Bill Williams]

Briars... will all due respect - there is NO judicial body in Italy which has tried this case which agrees with you.

1) Massei's court rejected "dysfunctional young people" completely as a reason for this crime, and Massei was the one who convicted them! For heaven's sake, have you ever even read Massei?

2) The recent ISC also disagrees with you. That court has just incurred the wrath of one of John Kercher's friends (Piers Morgan) for suggesting this was a "sex game gone wrong," a game involving Meredith as a participant. Pier Morgan, understandably, finds that notion repugnant.​

You've just offered up your own theory above. Based on..... what? A ouiji board?

You do know this is a serious allegation don't you? You seem to be more interested in defaming two innocents with allegations that even the Italian courts have either not alleged or have actually debunked.

Why?

Besides, the conversation was about a person with substance abuse issues and their abilities to be a witness to a crime. And you have successfully NOT dealt with it but you do what guilters always do - ignore the implications of what someone like NancyS said, and then change the subject.

I have dealt with it at length Bill . The square was empty , it was not a place to hang out . He was not so out of it if he read the paper daily.I listened to a coherent interview on utube with him He would be able to identify a couple hanging around for no good reason on his turf. You have no problem with your Mignini bashing blogger source who is wanted for separate domestic incidents. Quoted in books and relied a upon for evidence on police corruption. To each his own I believe Curatolo thanks. His testimony also fits with the overwhelming evidence that was ignored by Hellman. I think we will hear more of it in the months to come. Wasn't there evidence of bruising by different sized hands for example. It should be interesting.

There - you did it again. I make mention of the Italian courts, none of which agree with you, and you bring up a blogger! Unless this mysterious blogger is a judge... well, I will let readers here decide whether or not you even dealt with the issue.

You made claims about the nature of the crime (dysfunctional students on the loose), I pointed out why no court in Italy, including the latest ISC ruling, agrees with you.

Good for you.

 

[anglolawyer]

Wasn't there evidence of bruising by different sized hands for example.

Never heard that one before. Don't ask us. Tell us.

 

[Briars]

There - you did it again. I make mention of the Italian courts, none of which agree with you, and you bring up a blogger! Unless this mysterious blogger is a judge... well, I will let readers here decide whether or not you even dealt with the issue.

You made claims about the nature of the crime (dysfunctional students on the loose), I pointed out why no court in Italy, including the latest ISC ruling, agrees with you.

Good for you.

I was comparing witness types heroin user who knows his piazza to Mignini , police basher who is your main source for corruption. They are related pay attention Bill . You are suggesting Mignini bought off Curatolo based on what , your pal in hiding? Massei was reluctant to paint Amanda as the main aggressor. Micheli wasn't so kind . It took three and the guilt is shared.

 

[Briars]

I believe it was evidence of multiple attackers, and I think but don't quote me I read it in the untranslated report.If no one else read it I could be wrong. No time to check so I'll withdraw that for now until we hear further.

 

[Bill Williams]

I was comparing witness types heroin user who knows his piazza to Mignini , police basher who is your main source for corruption. They are related pay attention Bill . You are suggesting Mignini bought off Curatolo based on what , your pal in hiding? Massei was reluctant to paint Amanda as the main aggressor. Micheli wasn't so kind . It took three and the guilt is shared.

Nice canard. I was quoting what the courts said, in comparison with your theory, and you bring in a blogger.

For your reference this is what I was responding to....

Is anyone putting the blame on pot? Three dysfunctional young people combined their angst into one fatal attack. Jealousy , sexual motive, childhood pain. and the thrill of finally getting to act out a knife fantasy was motive enough. Pot couldn't blur the memory and I agree could not influence a normal person. Aggression and group killings happen for no apparent reason with normal looking youths involved.

Re-read the highlighted part. You are offering a "theory of the motivation for the crime" which fits nothing the courts have ever found as factual, including the present ISC with its resurrection of the long since defunct "sex game gone wrong" motivation for the crime. (Even Mignini gave up on that at the Massei trial!)

How is a blogger related to THAT!? Nice try... again, I'll leave it to casual readers to render their own judgement on this.

 

[Dan O.]

I believe it was evidence of multiple attackers, and I think but don't quote me I read it in the untranslated report.If no one else read it I could be wrong. No time to check so I'll withdraw that for now until we hear further.

It appears to be in the recent ISC ruling:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-they-overturned-amanda-knox-s-acquittal.html

The high court adamantly dismissed the defense theory that Guede acted alone. In their reasoning, they pointed to the fact that Kercher suffered more than 40 knife wounds and lesions to her body, including handprint bruises from what appeared to be different-sized hands and tiny knife pricks on her palms, as if she were protecting herself from a taunting knife. ​

But for some reason doesn't appear in Massei. Is the ISC evaluating evedence? If they are going beyond ruling on procedures as allowed in the italian legal system, this would be a much clearer violation of double jeporty for a US citizen.

 

[Sonia]

Do you think the additional male profiles on the bra clasp are the result of contamination or the result of at least 4 different males handling her bra clasp?

I think contamination is most likely while the clasp was shuffled around on the floor with all the dusty dead skin cells that settle on the floor where people live. Eventually it found its way under the rug with a bunch of other clutter. Plenty of chances for contamination.

I do sometimes wonder if the additional male DNA on the clasp might have come from an occasion when MK, her downstairs boyfriend, and the other downstairs roomies were sharing a joint with MK. Her fingers would have touched the paper where all those male lips had touched (with traces of saliva), and then she would eventually have retired to her room for the night and unfastened her bra clasp with her own fingers. Or maybe her boyfriend would have helped her, with the same traces of DNA on his fingertips. That would account for the assortment of male DNA.

It could have happened the night her boyfriend gave her the keys to downstairs and instructions about watering the pot plants. Or it could have been some other night.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Looking for glass outside was part of the investigation

Most certainly not. Gioia Brocci in her testimony is very specific about the activities under the window. There was no search for glass pieces.

 

[Katody Matrass]

From WTBH:

“Oh my God, someone broke in!” I shouted to Raffaele, who was right behind me. In the next instant, I spotted Filomena’s laptop and digital camera sitting on the desk.

Knox, Amanda (2013-04-30). Waiting to Be Heard: A Memoir (p. 68). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I have a hard time buying that too. I just don't see where they could have been on the desk or the bedside table, both of which were cluttered with upright, apparently undisturbed items.

If you look in her testimony, she later corrects herself, saying the camera, not the laptop was on Filomena's desk.

"I didn't see the rock. I saw that there was the computer on the tab-- No!
The camera was on the table. I saw that the things were still there. I
didn't see the rock."​

 

[Sonia]

This is getting moronic. Is there anyone in the world who doesn't consider a daily user of heroin to be a junkie? Really?

Moronic indeed. "Junk" is slang for heroin. A habitual user of heroin is a junkie; that's how the word was coined. It's silly to argue otherwise.

 

[Briars]

Bill my responses were to Nancy and her assessment of drug users and violent crime and witnesses who are drug users. I was agreeing pot would not be a big factor in Meredith's murder. The assailants were ofter high and pot doesn't cause aggression. Trying to keep the discussion on witnesses I ignored your attempt to sway the discourse to Massei wanting to stay on point about a witness who uses heroin versus a verbally abusive self serving blogger. A blogger who defamed Mignini and the Perugian police on many occasions At least you didn't bring up the 'no mixed blood' argument again. Thankfully

 

[Bill Williams]

This is getting moronic. Is there anyone in the world who doesn't consider a daily user of heroin to be a junkie? Really?

Moronic indeed. "Junk" is slang for heroin. A habitual user of heroin is a junkie; that's how the word was coined. It's silly to argue otherwise.

And one last comparison with what Briars offers.... Briars considers the parallel to be trusting either Mignini (who's the one who tried to sell this travesty to the courts in Italy) with some blogger who he says has legal issues.

That's a bait and switch if I ever saw one. Of course, I could be wrong, so will let the reader decide for him/herself.

At least there is evidence out there that the witness in questino was a daily user of heroine. What Briars offers in comparison is also this - something Briars invents, but be that as it may, it is patently not what ANY court in Italy has said about Knox and Sollecito....

Three dysfunctional young people combined their angst into one fatal attack. Jealousy , sexual motive, childhood pain. and the thrill of finally getting to act out a knife fantasy was motive enough.

Dysfunctional? Massei implied they had no psychopathology at all in them. I suppose Briars has some sort of psychological background in claiming this - yet those with clinical backgrounds would be cautious about calling someone "dysfunctional" unless they'd seen them in a controlled setting.

My guess is that this is confirmation bias, but Briars could be hiding his clinical background so as to render some sort of expert opinion. The confirmation bias would be, "They killed Meredith out of jealousy and childhood pain, so obviously they are dysfunctional."

The hallmark of confirmation bias is circular reasoning and assuming the conclusion as one of your premises.

 

[Briars]

And one last comparison with what Briars offers.... Briars considers the parallel to be trusting either Mignini (who's the one who tried to sell this travesty to the courts in Italy) with some blogger who he says has legal issues.

That's a bait and switch if I ever saw one. Of course, I could be wrong, so will let the reader decide for him/herself.

At least there is evidence out there that the witness in questino was a daily user of heroine. What Briars offers in comparison is also this - something Briars invents, but be that as it may, it is patently not what ANY court in Italy has said about Knox and Sollecito....



Dysfunctional? Massei implied they had no psychopathology at all in them. I suppose Briars has some sort of psychological background in claiming this - yet those with clinical backgrounds would be cautious about calling someone "dysfunctional" unless they'd seen them in a controlled setting.

My guess is that this is confirmation bias, but Briars could be hiding his clinical background so as to render some sort of expert opinion. The confirmation bias would be, "They killed Meredith out of jealousy and childhood pain, so obviously they are dysfunctional."

The hallmark of confirmation bias is circular reasoning and assuming the conclusion as one of your premises.

The evidence according to the SC supports more than one assailant. Early analysis indicates that Hellman made a very poor judgement. The defendants have much to answer to, and we will hear more no doubt. There has to be some motive, mine are suggestions any motive for taking Meredith's life was nonsensical and pathetic. My personal opinion of something being off with the defendants has only increased after their interviews and further changing stories. The point where Dianne asks Amanda if she did it or if she was there is frozen on video for all to see and read whether guilt or deception is present.