Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Sherlock Holmes]

The contention that contamination must be proved to exist is utter, usually self-serving nonsense, but it is what I have come to expect from law enforcement around the world.

If this were not the case though, would not all DNA findings be claimed contamination, or at least the vast majority. I heard somewhere in this case a long time ago, that unless contamination were proved, it doesn't exist.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Apparently it is. You may wish to put me on your ignore list.

Please don't, and I expect I speak for many here.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I believe the beginning times a bit late but this is totally possible, Amanda and Raff slightly involved but did not murder, where have I heard that before, no one here will like it though, but I do.

The trouble is that no matter how you slice it, there is no physical evidence that says that AK and RS left his apartment that night.

The only evidence that does say that is 1) Amanda's statement to the police which is highly suspect as to how it was obtained, and 2) Toto's witness statement in which he identifies the wrong day, admits to being high on heroin, claims that the couple he saw were arguing in Italian, and that he could positively identify them despite their being over the other side of the square and it being night time.

Remove those two things and what have you got left?

 

[PhantomWolf]

If this were not the case though, would not all DNA findings be claimed contamination, or at least the vast majority. I heard somewhere in this case a long time ago, that unless contamination were proved, it doesn't exist.

The difference is that in the majority of cases the appropriate standards for collection, transport, storage, and testing are used. Control samples are taken and tested as well, and also controls done before testing both control and suspect samples. This means that contamination can be managed and accounted for correctly and so any claim of contamination needs to be shown.

In this case the ILE video plainly shows that they failed to take adequate steps to prevent contamination, and in fact in many cases used techniques that if anything encouraged it. We also know that their transport and storage practices were sloppy (the knife managed to find its way out of a sample bag and into a shoebox for goodness sake!) and despite repeated requests, not one valid control test has ever been produced (in fact the prosecution tried twice to introduce controls, once by merely claiming they had and the court had lost them, and the second time by giving the court false controls.)

When those doing the testing fail to follow the correct procedures to prevent contamination at every single step, how can they claim that none occurred?

ETA: In fact we know for a fact that there WAS some form of contamination on the bra clasp because there was unidentified DNA on it. In other words, even if we assume that RS's was there, then once we remove his and MK's, there is still other people's, possibly up to another 3 people's DNA on that clasp. Now unless the prosecution's case is that those other three people all touched MK's bra clasp as well, the only way for that DNA to get there is via some form of contamination, either at the scene or afterwards, there is no other plausible explanation, and if up to three other people's DNA was on the clasp innocently, then why could it not have been the same for that which was claimed to be RS's?

 

[PhantomWolf]

The shoe prints lead out Meredith's door and do not return even under Lumina examination, Rudi did not lock that door when he left and he didn't return to lock it later, those were his final prints out the door, show me where he returned, you can't. Now, because this was not brought up at trial, I'm guessing there is probably a very good reason why, I would like to know, but no one seem to know the answer.

What if Rudi had an accomplice? We know Rudi liked his dope, what if he was in debt to his dealer? We know he was having money issues. He knows the boys are away, and that they are growing dope, so he arranges for his dealer (or someone working for his dealer) to come and get it after he steals it. Unable to get in below, he breaks into the girl's floor on the theory that they likely have some they got from the boys. MK arrives home while he's on the loo after starting to look for money and dope. The fight happens and he kills her. He goes to the bathroom washes up, gets the towels. The dealer (or his mate) turns up for the stash, Rudy lets him in, they discuss what to do. Rudy stages the killing to look like a rape hoping that will take the heat off him as a burglar and leaves not realising he'd stepped in MK's blood. The dealer (or his mate) who hasn't stepped in blood locks up and follows.

Possible?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

What if Rudi had an accomplice? We know Rudi liked his dope, what if he was in debt to his dealer? We know he was having money issues. He knows the boys are away, and that they are growing dope, so he arranges for his dealer (or someone working for his dealer) to come and get it after he steals it. Unable to get in below, he breaks into the girl's floor on the theory that they likely have some they got from the boys. MK arrives home while he's on the loo after starting to look for money and dope. The fight happens and he kills her. He goes to the bathroom washes up, gets the towels. The dealer (or his mate) turns up for the stash, Rudy lets him in, they discuss what to do. Rudy stages the killing to look like a rape hoping that will take the heat off him as a burglar and leaves not realising he'd stepped in MK's blood. The dealer (or his mate) who hasn't stepped in blood locks up and follows.

Possible?[/QUOTE]

Definitely, for me anyway, no true PIP would buy it though, no trace left in room, no hair, no DNA yadda yadda yadda, sound familiar.

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by bri1 View Post
“Contamination must be proven with certainty not supposition.” SC


AAAA aaaaaa choooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

The trouble is that no matter how you slice it, there is no physical evidence that says that AK and RS left his apartment that night.

The only evidence that does say that is 1) Amanda's statement to the police which is highly suspect as to how it was obtained, and 2) Toto's witness statement in which he identifies the wrong day, admits to being high on heroin, claims that the couple he saw were arguing in Italian, and that he could positively identify them despite their being over the other side of the square and it being night time.

Remove those two things and what have you got left?

I do like how you start off by saying no evidence, then go on to list evidence, and even then skip over even more evidence, the knife, the bra clasp, the store owner the mixed DNA and so on....... Tell me though, what evidence is there they stayed home that night after 9:15 and before 5:30am the next morning?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

The difference is that in the majority of cases the appropriate standards for collection, transport, storage, and testing are used. Control samples are taken and tested as well, and also controls done before testing both control and suspect samples. This means that contamination can be managed and accounted for correctly and so any claim of contamination needs to be shown.

In this case the ILE video plainly shows that they failed to take adequate steps to prevent contamination, and in fact in many cases used techniques that if anything encouraged it. We also know that their transport and storage practices were sloppy (the knife managed to find its way out of a sample bag and into a shoebox for goodness sake!) and despite repeated requests, not one valid control test has ever been produced (in fact the prosecution tried twice to introduce controls, once by merely claiming they had and the court had lost them, and the second time by giving the court false controls.)

When those doing the testing fail to follow the correct procedures to prevent contamination at every single step, how can they claim that none occurred?

ETA: In fact we know for a fact that there WAS some form of contamination on the bra clasp because there was unidentified DNA on it. In other words, even if we assume that RS's was there, then once we remove his and MK's, there is still other people's, possibly up to another 3 people's DNA on that clasp. Now unless the prosecution's case is that those other three people all touched MK's bra clasp as well, the only way for that DNA to get there is via some form of contamination, either at the scene or afterwards, there is no other plausible explanation, and if up to three other people's DNA was on the clasp innocently, then why could it not have been the same for that which was claimed to be RS's?

We would need to know who's DNA other than RS's is on the bra before we could say if it were contamination or not and that is not likely to happen.

 

[GWCarver]

What if Rudi had an accomplice? We know Rudi liked his dope, what if he was in debt to his dealer? We know he was having money issues. He knows the boys are away, and that they are growing dope, so he arranges for his dealer (or someone working for his dealer) to come and get it after he steals it. Unable to get in below, he breaks into the girl's floor on the theory that they likely have some they got from the boys. MK arrives home while he's on the loo after starting to look for money and dope. The fight happens and he kills her. He goes to the bathroom washes up, gets the towels. The dealer (or his mate) turns up for the stash, Rudy lets him in, they discuss what to do. Rudy stages the killing to look like a rape hoping that will take the heat off him as a burglar and leaves not realising he'd stepped in MK's blood. The dealer (or his mate) who hasn't stepped in blood locks up and follows.

Possible?

There isn't any evidence of an accomplice in any part of his crime spree, at least none in the public record. The DNA and print evidence show it was Guede alone who killed Meredith.

This really is a straightforward case, but when Mignini is involved in a case, complexities one doesn't see in other cases suddenly appear. The Order of the Red Rose and Masonic conspiracies are lurking nearby. Without Mignini, this case would have been over when the lab processed the crime scene evidence and found it all pointed to Guede, IMO. He has the power to do whatever he wants to do, and it doesn't seem anyone in Italy can do anything about it. The Court of Cassation appears to be either in his pocket or members of his fan club because after all of this time they decided to reboot his "sex game" as well as his discredited witnesses.

Douglas Preston showed the best way for an American to deal with Mignini is to run away, as fast as you can, and keep the American Embassy on the phone at least until the plane leaves the ground.

 

[Kestrel]

I do like how you start off by saying no evidence, then go on to list evidence, and even then skip over even more evidence, the knife, the bra clasp, the store owner the mixed DNA and so on....... Tell me though, what evidence is there they stayed home that night after 9:15 and before 5:30am the next morning?

Repeating the same old mantra of long debunked talking points is what pro guilt people do when they can't deal with new information.

 

[Bill Williams]

Please don't, and I expect I speak for many here.

Am I as nuts as some here think? Wait a minute.... don't answer that!

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Repeating the same old mantra of long debunked talking points is what pro guilt people do when they can't deal with new information.

You seem to have that completely backwards - it's the PIP's that do that all the time, if they can't explain something, then it because of a lie, a dishonest person, an complete incompetent person, there is always a reason and they are always asking for evidence but just keep debunking what evidence there is, yet they have NO, and I repeat, NO evidence that says otherwise. Forget all the evidence that says they were out the night of the murder and give me just one small piece that even hints that they were not.

 

[RandyN]

4pm AK RS goodbye MK

4.30pm AK RS head to RS flat

8.18pm text from PL dont come in - AK angry

8.20pm finds/bumps into RG who lives near to RS. AK flirts and suggests he steals MK rent money in exchange for cocaine, gives him her key (and RS kitchen knife) and says meet at basketball court at 9.30pm to party

8.35pm AK returns to RS flat texts PL seeya!

8.45pm Popovic sees AK at RS flat

9.00pm RG arranges HK meet him near cottage to supply cocaine

9.15pm RG HK enter cottage with key make themselves at home - goes to steal money surprised to find MK there - she is angry - confrontation RG sexual assault ; HK's contribution is brief but deadly

9.30pm AK RS wait at basketball court for RG

9.45pm MK fatally wounded HK flees early with his weapon. RG left amongst devastation - flees

10.00pm AK RS at basketball court argue as to what has gone on and what to do

10.30 - 11.15pm breakdown truck near to cottage - sees and hears nothing

11.15pm AK RS visit cottage. AK screams when they see body and realise what her actions have led to. They stage scene to make it point to a male outsider.

Next morning AK RS stay around cottage to manage discovery and gauge reaction/evidence found

I actually like it. Not bad at all...in fact one of the best so far.

But...

Why is AK angry at 8:18? I am always happy to be given time off from work...especially unplanned time off...kinda like a snow day from school.

At 8:20 AK gives the knife? You aren't really going with the too low DNA found on the blade are you?

I wish there was more evidence available as to how well Guede speaks English or at that point how good was Knoxs Italian.

It seems a little awkward for the lovers to rush home to meet Popovic but then return to the plaza to meet what... Totos statement? But remember his statement was from 9 til midnight right? Or was it 9:27 and 38 seconds? I forget.

When does Rudy get the wet pants? His hand and foot print in blood on the pillow under MK, and WTH is any evidence of HK inside? Sure his car is outside and he is likely involved...he also left the country...but where is his evidence?

Why not AK screams and they run away? And when did Rudy give Amandas key back? She had it the next day...or did she have two? Is there evidence of that?

Why the whole PL thing? Or are you saying that the police may have invented him into the story because of his meeting Monday morning outside of Amandas school plus the ridiculous not interpreted any other way text message?

I will say I have always found the mop story to be very weak...even troubling. I also was always troubled by RS late night activities...insomniac?

How about HK and RG break in thru Filomenas window...HK actually boosts RG up on his shoulders? All the parts happen as you say except AK and RS are not involved in any way? Rudy is taking a crap while HK is surprised by MK return. He kills her and runs. That leaves Rudy somehow getting his dna inside MK vagina and on her purse zipper...MK is alive when her bra is removed no matter how bad the SC sees the matter. Facts are facts...no speculation necessary there.

Still I like your attempt ...best so far...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Am I as nuts as some here think? Wait a minute.... don't answer that!

Were all nuts to some degree, some more that others, you my friend seem ok though -at least you are polite, I like that.

 

[Dan O.]

Possible?

Yes. But not necessary and it may not fit the evidence.


There are a series of separate blood trails that need to be coalesced into one story.

There are Rudy's bloody hands: this blood comes directly from the act of stabbing Meredith. The blood is on the knife which is set down on the bed sheet. The bloody fingers may have made the mark on the wall above the head of the bed. Rudy's hand definitely transfers a bloody print to the pillowcase. And finally a bloody hand opens the bedroom door from the inside. This last point indicates that there was probably not a clean hand available to open the bedroom door. What dynamic would result in an accomplice also getting both hands covered in blood?

There are the bloody shoe prints. Mostly just the left shoe. It appears to start in the pillow case then the print appears at the foot of the bed at 5C and multiple steps at 5B before leading out of the room. We're still waiting for Sherlock to confront the shoe print evidence.

There is the bloody pants: This would be the outside right pant leg. There is a blood drip on the bathroom door that was probably caused by the bloody pants rubbing on the edge of the door. This can be measured to tell us the height of the blood stain on the pants and may offer a clue as to where the stain came from. The pants would be rinsed off in the bathroom transferring bloody water to the right foot and then to the bathmat.

These separate trails can all be easily coalesced into one timeline involving a lone wolf Rudy Guede. Trying to split them to include an accomplice will be very problematic. Does anybody care to try and put these parts together?

 

[Bill Williams]

Am I as nuts as some here think? Wait a minute.... don't answer that!

Were all nuts to some degree, some more that others, you my friend seem ok though -at least you are polite, I like that.

.... then perhaps I have failed to communicate.... oh, never mind.

 

[Dan O.]

We would need to know who's DNA other than RS's is on the bra before we could say if it were contamination or not and that is not likely to happen.

It can only be said that it is possible that Raffaele's DNA was one component of the mixed DNA on that clasp. Any theory that accounts for other DNA profiles on that clasp could also account for Raffaele's DNA profile being on that clasp. You cannot say how any DNA got on that clasp. You cannot say when any DNA got on that clasp^*. And you cannot say who's DNA was on that clasp.

(*) Actually, we can say something about the when. Because of the dynamic of how Rudy ripped off Meredith's bra, we can know that no one touched that clasp when Meridith was murdered and it stayed untouched under the pillow under her naked body until the police moved her on November 3.


BW: When are you going to confront the shoe print evidence.

 

[GWCarver]

You seem to have that completely backwards - it's the PIP's that do that all the time, if they can't explain something, then it because of a lie, a dishonest person, an complete incompetent person, there is always a reason and they are always asking for evidence but just keep debunking what evidence there is, yet they have NO, and I repeat, NO evidence that says otherwise. Forget all the evidence that says they were out the night of the murder and give me just one small piece that even hints that they were not.

Don't you think it is fair to assume that a guy like Mignini wouldn't have turned to a junkie with a drug charge hanging over his head long after the crime if he could find any evidence they were out that night? I think that is all the proof you need, assuming you really just want "one small piece that even hints that they were not [out]." He had access to every security tape in Perugia. They weren't out, or he would have found them. Also, they wouldn't have had to blow up their hard drives to keep them from proving they were at Raffaele's apartment if the police could have proved they were out. (From now on I'm going to assume they did that on purpose because they have never offered an adequate explanation of how the "accidents" happened.)

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It can only be said that it is possible that Raffaele's DNA was one component of the mixed DNA on that clasp. Any theory that accounts for other DNA profiles on that clasp could also account for Raffaele's DNA profile being on that clasp. You cannot say how any DNA got on that clasp. You cannot say when any DNA got on that clasp^*. And you cannot say who's DNA was on that clasp.

(*) Actually, we can say something about the when. Because of the dynamic of how Rudy ripped off Meredith's bra, we can know that no one touched that clasp when Meridith was murdered and it stayed untouched under the pillow under her naked body until the police moved her on November 3.


BW: When are you going to confront the shoe print evidence.

There is no shoe print evidence, You miss the whole problem behind the shoe prints and you can not answer my questions about them. The shoe prints not returning is not the problem, how and if Rudi went back into the room is not the question, the question is why was it not bright up at trial, it wasn't because there is some known reason that both the defense and the prosecution know about that makes the point moot, it could be something as simple as the door locks when it open, though neither of us think this lock can do that but regardless, that would be a good answer if true and the reason it was not brought. Up. Quote possibly only the defense or prosecution can answer this question because I hardly doubt it was overlooked. Your disappearing print, mean absolutely nothing, goodness, where do you think they went?