Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Charlie Wilkes]

Barbie Nadeau has posted a new article on the Daily Beast with some information about what is in the court report:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-they-overturned-amanda-knox-s-acquittal.html

I noticed this in particular:

The high court also found fault with the appellate court’s interpretation of the dynamic of the crime, especially with regard to how many attackers were involved. Kercher’s body was found nude from the waist down with her shirt pulled up above her breasts. Her bra had been cut from her corpse after she was dead – not before -- based on the blood splatters found on the bra and the stencil left on her naked skin.

This came from Micheli's pre-trial report, and it is factually wrong, as we have discussed many times in this thread. The aspirated blood spatter on Meredith's bra and on her exposed breasts shows clearly that the bra was ripped (not cut) from her body while she was still breathing. The "stencil" was left by contact with a seam in the floor tiles, not the strap of the bra, and this too is easily proved with photos.

Nadeau also writes:

She had been sexually penetrated, most likely with a finger, but not raped, according to forensic evidence gathered from Kercher’s body at the scene of the crime and backed up by autopsy reports that showed that she had signs of sexual arousal but no vaginal tears. The evidence led the original investigators to float the theory of an erotic sex game that had gone terribly wrong. How else could have she died from what seemed like consensual sex?

Arousal? Consensual sex? Is this coming from the filthy minds on the court or the filthy mind of Nadeau, or both?

I will be most interested to read this report when it is translated into English. If the only goal is to lash out in blind fury and damage the lives of innocent people, it is already a raging success. But if the goal is to salvage the dignity of those who engineered this travesty, I suspect it will backfire in a big way.

 

[JREF2010]

The extent of glee expressed by PGP's in this case is sickening, I don't understand how they can be so certain of their guilt and not be the least bit concerned about a wrongful conviction.

From what I have been reading, it doesn't sound like a damn thing discussed here will even matter to the Italian Courts. It's really astonishing.

Either everything we PIP have been lead to believe is completely wrong or there is amazing travesty of justice going on here

I admit the case is much more shocking now, as in the beginning it was easy to understand and comnprehend a small bunch of inbred police protecting each other, Massei and lunch friends and locals against the "outsiders"...easy.

But with the Supreme Court sending the trial back, ok....the Italians are very slow and thorough...ok...

but then this report is supposedly scathing and almost witch-hunt like again, and tossing out expert DNA data? and instead bringing back Nara who saw nothing in the night?

I hope we are wrong in thinking there is corruption and face saving going on behind closed doors?

I still believe the Kerchers only want the truth, and are tainted from Maresca, yet as humans dont want innocent people locked away because Rudy Guede blamed them for his crime.

but still this report supposedly is very pro-prosecution it seems and anti-scientific!

 

[MattJones]

I know Matt, but you have also embarked on a hunt for 'hard facts' thus putting your conclusion out in front of your enquiry. I had assumed, accordingly, that your opinion was of a provisional nature, subject to amendment in light of said facts.

You are correct. I believe she is innocent but will go where the facts lead.

 

[Bill Williams]

Barbie Nadeau has posted a new article on the Daily Beast with some information about what is in the court report:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-they-overturned-amanda-knox-s-acquittal.html

I will be most interested to read this report when it is translated into English. If the only goal is to lash out in blind fury and damage the lives of innocent people, it is already a raging success. But if the goal is to salvage the dignity of those who engineered this travesty, I suspect it will backfire in a big way.

Nadeau also says with a straight face that the ISC even dusted off and old relic.... "Italy’s high court unabashedly sided with the Perugia prosecutors who won the 2009 conviction, even reviving the long-dead theory of an erotic sex game gone wrong that was an integral part of the original trial—but that had been dismissed by the appellate judges."

This is some sort of "proof" for me that the ISC was bypassing even Massei's court, which also nixed this theory, and purposely siding with the prosecution - and not ANY of the courts underneath it.

Is Mignini now running the ISC?

 

[RoseMontague]

Please ask her for the cites about the other murder cases Curatolo was a witness in. This should be a quick turn around. The more information the better. I'd like to know exactly what he testified to and if he came out months after.

As I've said for years, as a person that started reading about this from day one I felt and feel that CD became a FOA proponent early on and some of her reporting left me being unsure of its veracity. When her book came out and was of the True Crime genre that deepened my feelings about her work.

I believe that you have collaborated with her for stories and perhaps her book as well as with the FOA. I think that's great but colors your opinion a bit.

Here is your cite.

If this really happened, such as lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori have written in 'Grounds added "before the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia, is for the Police ipotizzerebbe the crime of" Failure to official acts. " The Bongiorno and Maori have made this discovery by reviewing one of the key witnesses for the sentencing of two young men. That of Antonio Curatolo, the homeless who spent and still spends his days on a bench in the square Grimana in Perugia. A man often present at the crime scene if it is true, how true, that in previous years, with his testimony, allowed the police to solve two murders: that of a lady who was a guest house in Via delle Cantine, and that of a young Moroccan, Najla Dridi.

http://translate.google.com/transla...ox-beta&hs=xyp&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

 

[JREF2010]

Barbie Nadeau has posted a new article on the Daily Beast with some information about what is in the court report:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-they-overturned-amanda-knox-s-acquittal.html

I noticed this in particular:

The high court also found fault with the appellate court’s interpretation of the dynamic of the crime, especially with regard to how many attackers were involved. Kercher’s body was found nude from the waist down with her shirt pulled up above her breasts. Her bra had been cut from her corpse after she was dead – not before -- based on the blood splatters found on the bra and the stencil left on her naked skin.

This came from Micheli's pre-trial report, and it is factually wrong, as we have discussed many times in this thread. The aspirated blood spatter on Meredith's bra and on her exposed breasts shows clearly that the bra was ripped (not cut) from her body while she was still breathing. The "stencil" was left by contact with a seam in the floor tiles, not the strap of the bra, and this too is easily proved with photos.

Nadeau also writes:

She had been sexually penetrated, most likely with a finger, but not raped, according to forensic evidence gathered from Kercher’s body at the scene of the crime and backed up by autopsy reports that showed that she had signs of sexual arousal but no vaginal tears. The evidence led the original investigators to float the theory of an erotic sex game that had gone terribly wrong. How else could have she died from what seemed like consensual sex?

Arousal? Consensual sex? Is this coming from the filthy minds on the court or the filthy mind of Nadeau, or both?

I will be most interested to read this report when it is translated into English. If the only goal is to lash out in blind fury and damage the lives of innocent people, it is already a raging success. But if the goal is to salvage the dignity of those who engineered this travesty, I suspect it will backfire in a big way.

Maybe the SC didnt really study this case, instead it was just another case of thousands they've done over the past 5 years....

Ive been in a civil trial that went on for a few years and at first it was intense, although by the third year the same Judge didnt even seem interested and had some compressed, truncated version of things and only seemed to stare at the wood while the lawyers droned on and on...filing $35 papers for another day in court (they make $hundreds an hour in court).

I realized he'd seen hundreds of cases over my three years, we were nothing, a case number, a pile of documents of meaningless faceless people.

 

[yimyammer]

I admit the case is much more shocking now, as in the beginning it was easy to understand and comnprehend a small bunch of inbred police protecting each other, Massei and lunch friends and locals against the "outsiders"...easy.

But with the Supreme Court sending the trial back, ok....the Italians are very slow and thorough...ok...

but then this report is supposedly scathing and almost witch-hunt like again, and tossing out expert DNA data? and instead bringing back Nara who saw nothing in the night?

I hope we are wrong in thinking there is corruption and face saving going on behind closed doors?

I still believe the Kerchers only want the truth, and are tainted from Maresca, yet as humans dont want innocent people locked away because Rudy Guede blamed them for his crime.

but still this report supposedly is very pro-prosecution it seems and anti-scientific!

I don't know what's going on over there but its frustrating the hell out of me.

Among other things, I just cant believe that if these three were truly in cahoots with one another that one of them wouldn't have broken down and told what happened. I just cant believe this 20-year girl was so clever and steadfast as to pull this off and still have none of her co-conspirators break down.

When faced with jail time, family will turn on one another. Mafioso, chunk omertà out the window, everyone sings to save their ass.

Except Amanda and Raf

 

[GWCarver]

Barbie Nadeau has posted a new article on the Daily Beast with some information about what is in the court report:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-they-overturned-amanda-knox-s-acquittal.html

I noticed this in particular:

The high court also found fault with the appellate court’s interpretation of the dynamic of the crime, especially with regard to how many attackers were involved. Kercher’s body was found nude from the waist down with her shirt pulled up above her breasts. Her bra had been cut from her corpse after she was dead – not before -- based on the blood splatters found on the bra and the stencil left on her naked skin.

This came from Micheli's pre-trial report, and it is factually wrong, as we have discussed many times in this thread. The aspirated blood spatter on Meredith's bra and on her exposed breasts shows clearly that the bra was ripped (not cut) from her body while she was still breathing. The "stencil" was left by contact with a seam in the floor tiles, not the strap of the bra, and this too is easily proved with photos.

Nadeau also writes:

She had been sexually penetrated, most likely with a finger, but not raped, according to forensic evidence gathered from Kercher’s body at the scene of the crime and backed up by autopsy reports that showed that she had signs of sexual arousal but no vaginal tears. The evidence led the original investigators to float the theory of an erotic sex game that had gone terribly wrong. How else could have she died from what seemed like consensual sex?

Arousal? Consensual sex? Is this coming from the filthy minds on the court or the filthy mind of Nadeau, or both?

I will be most interested to read this report when it is translated into English. If the only goal is to lash out in blind fury and damage the lives of innocent people, it is already a raging success. But if the goal is to salvage the dignity of those who engineered this travesty, I suspect it will backfire in a big way.

If Barbie is accurate, it would seem the prosecution's case is going to be that Meredith was aroused and suffered no vaginal tears, which proves she was involved in a sex game. (The Court of Cassation has directed them to go there in its motivation...) So, are they going to say she participated voluntarily, or are they going to say she was aroused by a sexual assault? Either way, I don't see this playing well anywhere. I actually find this whole idea offensive, for obvious reasons, and I really dislike it when anyone uses that word (offensive) in a discussion because it is often meant to silence the opposition. So, there is a bit of self-loathing involved in even depicting my feelings on this.

Also, it is hard to believe that even the Italians wouldn't test the presumed semen stain if the prosecution is going to declare Meredith was penetrated only by a finger.

Note to Barbie:

Meredith did not die from sex as you said in the quote:

"How else could have she died from what seemed like consensual sex?"

She died when Guede buried a knife up to the hilt in her neck.

Note to Charlie, an FYI:

In her book, Amanda said, "Her bra had been sliced off and left next to her body." Hopefully someone can contact her and get her caught up on some of the finer points of the available evidence. She really needs to know what happened.

 

[RWVBWL]

Regarding Curatolo's testimony:

What was Miss Meredith Kercher doing while Amanda +Raffaele were hanging around outside her flat?


Fiddling with her cell phone for an hour or so?
Doing her homework?

Or having consensual foreplay sex with Rudy Guede who was on a "date" with her since her boyfriend was outta town??

 

[RWVBWL]

According to PM Mignini, it seems that "cover-ups" do occur in Italy:

This was recently written by JREF member Bruce Fisher,
and I must say that I am a bit supprised!

What!

Police and government officials "caught" trying to conceal a murder, to do, how do you say in Italian, a "cover-up"!Really?

It must be so if PM Mignini says so...


"The Monster of Florence case involves a series of murders that occurred in Italy during the ‬1970s and ‬80s. ‬Couples, ‬who were parked in remote areas presumably to have sex, ‬were shot and the bodies of the female victims were mutilated. ‬Crime experts believed that the perpetrator was a Jack the Ripper type killer. ‬Mignini got involved in the Monster of Florence case while investigating the death of Dr. ‬Francesco Narducci, ‬whose body was found in a lake near Perugia.

Narducc’‬s death appeared to be a suicide. ‬There was no evidence to suggest that Narducci’‬s death had any relation at all to the Monster of Florence murders. ‬Oddly, ‬in ‬2001, ‬based on nothing other ‬than his imagination, ‬Mignini proclaimed that Narducci’s death was an integral part of the Monster of Florence mystery.

Mignini theorized that Narducci was part of an underground satanic cult that harvested female body parts for its rituals. ‬Mignini suggested that Narducci somehow became a security risk to the cult, ‬so the members decided to kill him and throw him in a lake to make it look like an accident or suicide.

Mignini then suggested that the cult secretly swapped Narducci’‬s body ‬with the body of someone who had drowned, ‬so the coroner would report death by drowning. ‬Mignini ordered that the body be exhumed to prove his theory. ‬When the coffin was opened to reveal the body of Narducci, ‬Mignini made another wild claim suggesting the body must have been swapped again by the cult.

Mignini created an elaborate conspiracyinvolving ‬20 ‬people who made up a secret society responsible for the Monster of Florence murders. ‬Mignini’‬s double body swapping satanic cult ritualistic murder fantasy led to the indictment the ‬20 ‬people, ‬which included government officials and law enforcement officers, ‬all charged with the concealment of Narducci’s murder.
The case against the ‬20 ‬defendants was thrown out of court because there was absolutely no evidence to support Mignini’‬s preposterous claims. ‬Mignini’‬s fantasy threatened to destroy the lives of ‬20 ‬innocent people. ‬Thankfully his ‬behavior did not go unnoticed, ‬leading to charges against him for conducting illegal investigations while working on the case."


A link to the above article:
http://groundreport.com/amanda-knox...-go-to-bat-for-prosecutor‭-‬giuliano-mignini/



Hmmmm,
why do I still wonder why,
IF PM Mignini believes in conspiracies+possible cover-ups amongst "government officials and law enforcement officers,"
that the Pro-Guilters amongst The JREF membership do not believe that this could be happening right now to Amanda Knox + Raffaele Sollecito?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

The extent of glee expressed by PGP's in this case is sickening, I don't understand how they can be so certain of their guilt and not be the least bit concerned about a wrongful conviction.

From what I have been reading, it doesn't sound like a damn thing discussed here will even matter to the Italian Courts. It's really astonishing.

Either everything we PIP have been lead to believe is completely wrong or there is amazing travesty of justice going on here

Don't be so hard on yourselves, you guys did get a couple of things right.

 

[RWVBWL]

She has not sung yet...

Heya Sherlock,
I don't know if you watched Game 6 of the NBA Finals last night or not,
between the Miami Heat and the San Antonio Spurs,
but the "game" ain't over yet,
the fat lady didn't sing...

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain't_over_till_the_fat_lady_sings


The evidence against Raff+Amanda is weak!
The evidence against Rudy Guede is strong...


Let's re-do this trial once+for all!
Amanda Knox + Raffaele Sollecito were not inside Miss Meredith Kercher's bedroom
the night she was stabbed in her throat, raped, and left to die.

But Rudy Guede sure was!

 

[anglolawyer]

I would if I thought that the point were worth pursuing, but I am not sure that it is yet (it might be worth looking in to this matter if it leads to a fresh way to discredit Curatolo). We have linked to each other's blog entries, but that is the extent of any collaboration.

I would be very interested in these other cases in which Curatolo gave evidence: what were the facts; what did he testify; when did he first come forward and in what circumstances; who were the principal investigating officers and/or PM; how prominently did his testimony feature in the motivation; did he solve a problem for the prosecution etc?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Heya Sherlock,
I don't know if you watched Game 6 of the NBA Finals last night or not,
between the Miami Heat and the San Antonio Spurs,
but the "game" ain't over yet,
the fat lady didn't sing...

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain't_over_till_the_fat_lady_sings


The evidence against Raff+Amanda is weak!
The evidence against Rudy Guede is strong...


Let's re-do this trial once+for all!
Amanda Knox + Raffaele Sollecito were not inside Miss Meredith Kercher's bedroom
the night she was stabbed in her throat, raped, and left to die.

But Rudy Guede sure was!

I didn't think they were either, but I could be wrong, there always a first time for everything.
No, sorry, I never acquired a taste for basketball, but Chicago beat Boston in OT to tie their series up at 2, there is something I'm am a bit interested in.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I would be very interested in these other cases in which Curatolo gave evidence: what were the facts; what did he testify; when did he first come forward and in what circumstances; who were the principal investigating officers and/or PM; how prominently did his testimony feature in the motivation; did he solve a problem for the prosecution etc?

I would be very interested as well.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

Lurker and first time poster here. Rose Montague says:

I was never able to find a good link to an article on the Dridi case.

Not sure how much this helps, but I've been able to locate the following report from Agenzia Giornalistica Italia from March 9, 2001, which run through Google Translate comes out as follows:

The accusation is that of aggravated murder for killing his ex-girlfriend, the young 24 year old Sihem, Najla Dridi alias, found almost completely charred corpse, in a room of the local swimming pool capolugoo, where work is in progress to extend . The young man, Addrado Jamil, aged 20, already in prison for drugs, already known by the police as a drug dealer level, has received a new order for custody on charges of murder, signed by the magistrate Nicla Restivo on request the prosecutor Sergio Sottani, the magistrate who investigates the murder of a drug dealer in Tunisia.

This morning, during a press conference the police (he was Lt. col. Enzo Fanelli to illustrate the stages of investigations still in progress) spoke of "strong circumstantial evidence" against the alleged perpetrator of the vicious crime, crashed several times in contradictions. The two young non-EU immigrants, some time in Perugia, had been involved in two other murders, the young Tunisian as an eyewitness to a stabbing in the Piazza del Bacio, Station neighborhood; together were seen fleeing from the house dell'affittacamere Tortioli, she burned in his room. Behind the crime of Tunisian girl, is there a history of drug, and the two had been arrested several times for drug trafficking and ultimately may have quarreled with each other. The investigation continues pending the last scientific investigations by the police of Racis.

 

[RandyN]

Barbie Nadeau has posted a new article on the Daily Beast with some information about what is in the court report:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-they-overturned-amanda-knox-s-acquittal.html

I noticed this in particular:

The high court also found fault with the appellate court’s interpretation of the dynamic of the crime, especially with regard to how many attackers were involved. Kercher’s body was found nude from the waist down with her shirt pulled up above her breasts. Her bra had been cut from her corpse after she was dead – not before -- based on the blood splatters found on the bra and the stencil left on her naked skin.

This came from Micheli's pre-trial report, and it is factually wrong, as we have discussed many times in this thread. The aspirated blood spatter on Meredith's bra and on her exposed breasts shows clearly that the bra was ripped (not cut) from her body while she was still breathing. The "stencil" was left by contact with a seam in the floor tiles, not the strap of the bra, and this too is easily proved with photos.

Nadeau also writes:

She had been sexually penetrated, most likely with a finger, but not raped, according to forensic evidence gathered from Kercher’s body at the scene of the crime and backed up by autopsy reports that showed that she had signs of sexual arousal but no vaginal tears. The evidence led the original investigators to float the theory of an erotic sex game that had gone terribly wrong. How else could have she died from what seemed like consensual sex?

Arousal? Consensual sex? Is this coming from the filthy minds on the court or the filthy mind of Nadeau, or both?

I will be most interested to read this report when it is translated into English. If the only goal is to lash out in blind fury and damage the lives of innocent people, it is already a raging success. But if the goal is to salvage the dignity of those who engineered this travesty, I suspect it will backfire in a big way.

Barbie is back on her sexually perverted track. No autopsy report showed that she had signs of arousal. WTH would be a sign of sexual arousal in a dead person? Barbie has become so stupid it is actually pitiful.

She fails to report that the DNA of Guede was found inside Miss Kerchers vagina and yet this remains a puzzling case for her. Yea sure puzzling for her and the other dumbest people on earth.

 

[RandyN]

Don't be so hard on yourselves, you guys did get a couple of things right.

Oh come on now....you are backing up the reversal of burden of proof that the Italian SC seems to have wedded itself to? You can do better than this.

 

[RandyN]

You are correct. I believe she is innocent but will go where the facts lead.

About 5 years late to the party no?

 

[bri1]

“Contamination must be proven with certainty not supposition.” SC
As other posters have mentioned already, I find it absolutely incredible that the SC has made this statement. If this was the case, you wouldn't have to bother with ANY of the forensics guidelines about collection and storage and testing. You might as well rock up at the crime scene with a used tissue for swabbing, empty coca cola bottles for sample collections, and a roll of scotch tape for fingerprint analysis! (Which they basically did do with the wrapping paper).
I am really very interested, if any of the Italian-reading posters can help me out, if any legal scholars in Italy have talked to the press about this statement or the verdict more generally?
If the top legal scholars are not shouting loudly about this, then Italy's truly screwed. I am going to do some research and start contacting some academics directly, to ask their opinions. If the academic community let rubbish like this stand, then their standing in the international academic community will be irrevocably damaged, surely?
Has the Supreme Court in effect just set a precedent that police are under no obligations at all to use proper forensic methodology? (Do precedents get set in this way in Italy? Does this contradict any point of statute in Italian law?). Defending yourself against a criminal case under these circumstances will be almost impossible. Also, there's a wider point of law at stake, where they are in effect turning the whole burden on it's head; that the prosecution has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. If it's not reasonable to doubt the validity of evidence when proper forensics guidelines were clearly not followed, then perhaps there is nothing that even counts as reasonable doubt, and we're left with a situation where literally all the prosecution has to do is prove that it was possible? I'd be up in arms (not literally) about this if I was Italian.