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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Had the defense had a shot at him or bothered themselves to wake up during his cross exam then it would have also came out that he was an eye witness in two other murder cases for Perugia prosecutors. Which makes him highly suspicious based on that alone.

Does anyone actually have a cite for his witness history.

How can the SC judge the evidence presented by Toto at the appeal trial? This seems impossible for them to do as well as beyond the scope of their duties. In fact this seems to indicate that the ISC is determined to break any law and make any speculative conclusion they wish to make. What procedure was misapplied?

Did they record his appeal testimony.

As for the bolded statement above ...I have already written to ABC news to ask for confirmation that Toto testified that he saw RS, AK, and RG together in the park that night.

I missed this. Who is saying that?

I seem to be hearing that the SC has positive proof that more than one person was involved in this murder. I wonder what that proof is?

They determined that in Rudi's trial with no opposition because both the defense and prosecution wanted there to be multiple attackers.
 
Not sure this is actually in the SC motivation report but if it is then it is incorrect. Toto was not dismissed simply because he was homeless. He was dismissed because he could not reconcile the correct date, he was incoherent and he admitted to being high on heroin.

Had the defense had a shot at him or bothered themselves to wake up during his cross exam then it would have also came out that he was an eye witness in two other murder cases for Perugia prosecutors. Which makes him highly suspicious based on that alone.

How can the SC judge the evidence presented by Toto at the appeal trial? This seems impossible for them to do as well as beyond the scope of their duties. In fact this seems to indicate that the ISC is determined to break any law and make any speculative conclusion they wish to make. What procedure was misapplied?

As for the bolded statement above ...I have already written to ABC news to ask for confirmation that Toto testified that he saw RS, AK, and RG together in the park that night.

I already know perfectly well that no such claim was ever made. Toto testified that he saw the two... AK and RS in the park from 9:30 until midnight. Nothing about Guede at all. And in fact now that Toto is dead...I wonder how they intend to handle his "evidence"? I say go with it ....yep they were in the park during the murder. A perfect alibi.

I seem to be hearing that the SC has positive proof that more than one person was involved in this murder. I wonder what that proof is? In 4 years of trial I haven't heard anything about any evidence of multiple assailants...you know footprints, DNA, finger prints, cctv video, semen of someone else...nothing except for Guede...and those two non repeatable LCN traces of non standard and clearly contrived results (one for each of AK and RS) Certainly they cant mean those proven wrong DNA samples are any indication of anything. Except for strong indications of police or prosecution misconduct or corruption or sheer stupidity...take your pick.

What Italians call illogical is astoundingly illogical. Is that ironic or illogical?

What the Court of Cassation can and can't do is a mystery to me. I will say it would seem pointless to have another trial if the content of the motivation actually has to be observed and followed, given the fact that the motivation is filled with the prosecution's arguments, many of them unsupported by fact or already proved to be bogus.

Here is a quote from Kevad, a lawyer of close to 30 years, over at IA that may shed some light on what we are seeing:


"Some of you have perhaps read my article on http://www.redditt.com, if not I might link it again. I have pointed out that Appeals in Italy usually only have one side present detail written arguments setting forth their positions, and that the other side usually can not and does not reply to their written brief. This results in only one side being fully heard by the justices and thus they really don't understand the positions that are contrary to their ruling. This ISC ruling looks like it was written by the prosecution and is one sided. This biased result is somewhat a typical outcome when reply briefs are not allowed."

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=747&p=103398#p103359
 
It's over. It's beyond hope.
...
The only thing left to hope, IMO, is that Raff can get out of Italy.

What's his legal status currently? Is he prevented from leaving Italy? If he moves to another EU nation, would he be subject to extradition, now or if the next appeal goes against him? Where would he have to go to stay out of jail?
 
.....
I have pointed out that Appeals in Italy usually only have one side present detail written arguments setting forth their positions, and that the other side usually can not and does not reply to their written brief. This results in only one side being fully heard by the justices and thus they really don't understand the positions that are contrary to their ruling. ...

What kind of court is that? The judges only hear one side? Leaving aside the Knox case, how does Italian jurisprudence function for Italians? How is a typical criminal case handled? Are innocent people routinely bullied into prison? What happens in a civil suit? Do the Italians have confidence in their own system?
 
My anti-virsus blocked the Reddit story but I'm pretty sure that the kids' defense was allowed to counter the Galati appeal. Of course, the appeal is against a court ruling and the motivations so in a way the court itself counters the appeal.
 
Really; are you all surprised?

Didn’t the Supreme Court uphold all of the prosecutions points of appeal back in March?

A lot of the regular posters here simply ignored the fact that Galati was an ex Supreme Court judge, in fact some ridiculed the appeal document.

I guess we'll have to wait for a detailed translation of the motivations as the devil is always in the detail.
 
Really; are you all surprised?

Didn’t the Supreme Court uphold all of the prosecutions points of appeal back in March?

A lot of the regular posters here simply ignored the fact that Galati was an ex Supreme Court judge, in fact some ridiculed the appeal document.

I guess we'll have to wait for a detailed translation of the motivations as the devil is always in the detail.

Very true Coulsdon, very true. It will still be horse droppings whatever it says but we'd better take a look.
 
My anti-virsus blocked the Reddit story but I'm pretty sure that the kids' defense was allowed to counter the Galati appeal. Of course, the appeal is against a court ruling and the motivations so in a way the court itself counters the appeal.

My understanding is that Amanda appealed the calumnia ruling in Hellmann's decision, the rest went the way she wanted so there was nothing else to appeal. In Raffaele's case it all went his way with Hellmann so he wasn't appealing anything. Maybe the lawyers got a chance to make a verbal argument before the court regarding each other's appeal points but I have not seen a document on this.
 
A method that instilled him with great confidence.

I dunno. Maybe he's good with sheep entrails.
The other, shall I say circumstantial events which were hidden in plain sight were for example:

The abuse of office charges against Mignini have been completely wiped, there is no Monster of Florence case unless Florentine police start with another investigation.

Mignini has been promoted for crying out loud, Galati is his boss!

Anyway, I’m off to Happy Valley (Coulsdon) to find a sheep or two!
 
, the courts need the interrogation without recordings,


It's so easy to make a recording when the room is setup for that purpose. Just press the right button or use a personal recorder if you happen to be in the control room with the closed circuit monitors. To prove that such a recording exists would be impossible without the recording itself.

But then there is the transcript. A written record of what was said. Transcripts are full of quotes and we know how the media loves quotes. We've seen quotes and more quotes. Quotes can't be proven to come from a recording or transcript. They could be just a personal memory of what was said. But if all the quotes were just from personal memories, there wouldn't be an investigation into the leaking of the transcripts.
 
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My understanding is that Amanda appealed the calumnia ruling in Hellmann's decision, the rest went the way she wanted so there was nothing else to appeal. In Raffaele's case it all went his way with Hellmann so he wasn't appealing anything. Maybe the lawyers got a chance to make a verbal argument before the court regarding each other's appeal points but I have not seen a document on this.

This is all very confusing without a translation, but here is what Teddy says over at IA:


"On the last paragraph, I've only glanced through the first half of the document, and although the defense did not present a rebuttal to the prosecution's recourse, other than for Amanda's calunnia conviction, the SC motivations did summarize the defense's arguments that were made at the SC hearing. In fact, the SC report provides a very good summary of Massei, Hellmann, the Prosecution's appeal, and the defense's SC arguments."


So, the defense arguments are summarized in the motivation. What isn't clear to me is if the written arguments, which may have only been presented by the prosecution, match the oral arguments to which the defense responded. In other words, I'm wondering if the "sex game' was in the written argument, not brought up in the oral arguments, then embraced by the court after everyone had gone home.

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=747&p=103398#p103360
 
It's so easy to make a recording when the room is setup for that purpose. Just press the right button or use a personal recorder if you happen to be in the control room with the closed circuit monitors. To prove that such a recording exists would be impossible without the recording itself.

But then there is the transcript. A written record of what was said. Transcripts are full of quotes and we know how the media loves quotes. We've seen quotes and more quotes. Quotes can't be proven to come from a recording or transcript. They could be just a personal memory of what was said. But if all the quotes were just from personal memories, there wouldn't be an investigation into the leaking of the transcripts.


I have to admit, I haven't been paying a ton of attention the last few months, working on my novel. Did I miss something?
 
I have to admit, I haven't been paying a ton of attention the last few months, working on my novel. Did I miss something?


Has anyone been paying attention? This was out of a BBC News article from November 6th, 2007.

In reviewing the old news, I got the distinct feeling that there were quotes from the interrogations that didn't appear in any of the official statements. The proper way to track these down and potentially uncover more is through a systematic process to document the source of every printed quote.
 
Really; are you all surprised?

Didn’t the Supreme Court uphold all of the prosecutions points of appeal back in March?

A lot of the regular posters here simply ignored the fact that Galati was an ex Supreme Court judge, in fact some ridiculed the appeal document.

I guess we'll have to wait for a detailed translation of the motivations as the devil is always in the detail.

You know me, CoulsdonUK, ever on the lookout for Satan himself.

The thing I am looking for is what the press is reporting as, "The Hellmann court should not have dismissed the sex-game gone wrong theory so quickly," or something to that effect.

Where my conspiratorial little mind goes, you know me.... I was about to argue with you that the Milan prosecutor now has the Monster of Florence case on his desk wondering what to do with it.....

But consider these details and where Mr. Diablo himself might reside. Mr. Mignini actually brought four, count 'em, four motives/theories of this crime to the prosecution.

1) The ritualistic killing associated with Hallowe'en, sometimes misreferred to as the Satanic cult theory by my side of things. Acc. to no less than Barbie Nadeau, it took prosecutor Maneula Comodi to threaten her own resignation if Mignini took that to trial.

2) The now preferred sex-game gone wrong theory, which provided the motive for Knox with malice aforethought to bring the knife from Raffaele's.

3) The tension/jealousy between MK and AK theory, which also provided the motive for Knox with malice aforethought to bring the knife from Raffaele's.

4) The "they just did it for no reason" theory, which matched what Massei was later to say about how the knife was brought, with no malice aforethought, Massei said that she habitually and innocently carried the knife for personal protection. But for Mignini, this (now) nihilistic & essentially motiveless crime was why he argued for life in prison and all that solitary time.​

You see, my own bias in this is that the SC has not done the new Florence prosecutor any favours. It's now simply a matter of record that Mr. Mignini in prosecuting this up in the hills of Perugia had a revolving door of motives and theories behind this horrid crime.

My bias is that Mr. Mignini himself saw the need to shift from the sex-game gone wrong theory, to the jealousy/hatred between Meredith & Amanda theory because.....

...... at least there was the potential for evidence for the latter. Mignini could put the British friends as well as Filomena on the stand to grill them as to the civil unrest that brewed below the surface in the cottage prior to the murder.

In short, there simply was no evidence of a sex-game gone wrong at all. None. Zero. Zilch, Nada, Niente. And if you think I am making this up, I would invite you to come up with a reason why Mr. Mignini himself swapped motives/theories twice from the sex-game one he went into court with?

And what happened with Filomena and Sophie and the rest? Under oath they basically said that the tensions were over a racing stripe in the European style toilet. That the marijuana use in the cottage was evenly distributed enough to get even Filomena to say under oath, "Yes, I have sinned," in that department. And yes, they said some nasty things about Knox appearing cold after the murder and not returning hugs and not crying at the proper times and all that.

Yet, even Massei concluded in his motivations report about this, "Meredith and Amanda were at war theory, and Amanda wanted to humiliate or teach Meredith a lesson," theory was bunk. He said that the two had a normal, perhaps good relationship with obvious and normal tensions which result from sharing a living space. (Then again the PLE had destroyed Knox's computer which perhaps had e-mails and pictures to back this normalcy up, but I think I promised you I would not get too conspiratorial!)

So, Mr. Mignini reading the tea leaves makes that the new "motive" was now, that Amanda killed for no reason at all. The worst reason imaginable. After sex-games are dropped for lack of evidence, and after the tensions-between-the-two are dropped for, well, lack of evidence...... it must have been a killing for no reason at all. (Which, essentially, agrees with what everyone on my side has been saying since the beginning - Knox and Sollecito actually had no reason to kill!)

With these details provided courtesy of Mr. Diablo.... can the new prosecutor be thrilled that the SC has pretty much directed the prosecutor to lead with this as the operative theory of the crime: that Meredith was killed in a sex-game gone wrong? Even Mr. Mignini had to travel two degrees of separation from that one!

I for one never ridiculed Galati's appeal document. I said it was written as if he were taking a side, as lawyers do (even though he's a judge, he acted as if a lawyer for a client). What would you have expected Judge Galati to write? Something critical of the client for whom he's writing the appeal document? It's what I would want my own lawyer to write even if I were lying through my teeth! It's what he's paid to do, and I draw no negative connotations from it.

What I do suspect, though, is that the SC motivations report is going to make the new Florence prosecutor's job impossible. There was a reason why Mignini had to abandon the theory the SC says is now prime.... does this mean that the new prosecutor cannot abandon it? I do not know the answer to that question.

I'm wondering if the new prosecutor has the option of simply dropping the charges and now not taking the case to trial? Can an Italian lawyer explain if this is possible?

I mean, the SC has tied one hand behind the new prosecutor's back. Then again, I would say that wouldn't I with the biases I hold?

Whatever the reasons why the "sex-game gone wrong theory" was abandoned - and remember it was abandoned at Massei's trial, not Hellmann's(!) a new prosecutor is going to have to present it, as if there is any evidence to support it.

Maybe he/she too will simply have to abandon it, and get Filomena and Sophie back on the stand to testify to how a racing stripe in a toilet and a joke vibrator, or a non returned hug, leads to a horrible massacre.

You see, the problem IS in the details is it no?
 
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Has anyone been paying attention? This was out of a BBC News article from November 6th, 2007.

In reviewing the old news, I got the distinct feeling that there were quotes from the interrogations that didn't appear in any of the official statements. The proper way to track these down and potentially uncover more is through a systematic process to document the source of every printed quote.

The media was reporting details from the interviews and interrogations almost immediately. The transcripts and statements from Raf have never been officially released AFAIK. The PGP quote from English media that is attributing to Italian papers but no actual transcript.

One thing I recall from early on was that the coroner said that there were no signs of rape and the sex looked consensual. Shortly thereafter the story changed and the police made the point that Meredith was completely innocent and had no fault in the crime. It was odd at the time that Meredith was transformed from a "party girl" to a completely innocent student.

I can't recall when Lalli was dismissed for leaking information but it always seemed odd that so much was leaked yet he was the only one disciplined.

Btw, I'm pretty sure that Galati wasn't a SC judge but more of a clerk.
 
One thing I have never seen covered is Meredith's diary or journal. Did she not have one? That would be unusual for such an organized type. Did she not have a calendar both hard copy and online?

If she really was complaining about Amanda did she not send an email or two home on the subject?
 
Bill I thought you did ridicule Galati and claim that he just wrote the ridiculous appeal because he was paid by the hour. IIR that incorrectly I apologize in advance.

The sex game gone bad is not a motive. You are far to hung up on motive. There is no reason the court needs to understand the why of a murder.

I do believe that it will be interesting, if true, that the sex game must be accounted for or even better, proven. The early reports had Meredith having sex voluntarily and AK's email discussed anal sex.

I await the actual translation.

ETA - one of your posts re: Galati - This is the very definition of someone needing to make a case, in fact being paid to make a case where no such case exists.

When I did court accompaniment, I was baffled by one defence lawyer who went on and on and on about insane theories which were supposed to have gotten his client off. No one believed him, much less the judge.

When I asked the prosecutor why the lawyer would embarrass himself like that, the answer was that the judge had already chewed out the guy for not mounting much of a defence. The simple fact was that even the highest paid lawyer in the world cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear.....
 
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You know me, CoulsdonUK, ever on the lookout for Satan himself.

The thing I am looking for is what the press is reporting as, "The Hellmann court should not have dismissed the sex-game gone wrong theory so quickly," or something to that effect.

Where my conspiratorial little mind goes, you know me.... I was about to argue with you that the Milan prosecutor now has the Monster of Florence case on his desk wondering what to do with it.....

But consider these details and where Mr. Diablo himself might reside. Mr. Mignini actually brought four, count 'em, four motives/theories of this crime to the prosecution.

1) The ritualistic killing associated with Hallowe'en, sometimes misreferred to as the Satanic cult theory by my side of things. Acc. to no less than Barbie Nadeau, it took prosecutor Maneula Comodi to threaten her own resignation if Mignini took that to trial.

2) The now preferred sex-game gone wrong theory, which provided the motive for Knox with malice aforethought to bring the knife from Raffaele's.

3) The tension/jealousy between MK and AK theory, which also provided the motive for Knox with malice aforethought to bring the knife from Raffaele's.

4) The "they just did it for no reason" theory, which matched what Massei was later to say about how the knife was brought, with no malice aforethought, Massei said that she habitually and innocently carried the knife for personal protection. But for Mignini, this (now) nihilistic & essentially motiveless crime was why he argued for life in prison and all that solitary time.​

You see, my own bias in this is that the SC has not done the new Florence prosecutor any favours. It's now simply a matter of record that Mr. Mignini in prosecuting this up in the hills of Perugia had a revolving door of motives and theories behind this horrid crime.

My bias is that Mr. Mignini himself saw the need to shift from the sex-game gone wrong theory, to the jealousy/hatred between Meredith & Amanda theory because.....

...... at least there was the potential for evidence for the latter. Mignini could put the British friends as well as Filomena on the stand to grill them as to the civil unrest that brewed below the surface in the cottage prior to the murder.

In short, there simply was no evidence of a sex-game gone wrong at all. None. Zero. Zilch, Nada, Niente. And if you think I am making this up, I would invite you to come up with a reason why Mr. Mignini himself swapped motives/theories twice from the sex-game one he went into court with?

And what happened with Filomena and Sophie and the rest? Under oath they basically said that the tensions were over a racing stripe in the European style toilet. That the marijuana use in the cottage was evenly distributed enough to get even Filomena to say under oath, "Yes, I have sinned," in that department. And yes, they said some nasty things about Knox appearing cold after the murder and not returning hugs and not crying at the proper times and all that.

Yet, even Massei concluded in his motivations report about this, "Meredith and Amanda were at war theory, and Amanda wanted to humiliate or teach Meredith a lesson," theory was bunk. He said that the two had a normal, perhaps good relationship with obvious and normal tensions which result from sharing a living space. (Then again the PLE had destroyed Knox's computer which perhaps had e-mails and pictures to back this normalcy up, but I think I promised you I would not get too conspiratorial!)

So, Mr. Mignini reading the tea leaves makes that the new "motive" was now, that Amanda killed for no reason at all. The worst reason imaginable. After sex-games are dropped for lack of evidence, and after the tensions-between-the-two are dropped for, well, lack of evidence...... it must have been a killing for no reason at all. (Which, essentially, agrees with what everyone on my side has been saying since the beginning - Knox and Sollecito actually had no reason to kill!)

With these details provided courtesy of Mr. Diablo.... can the new prosecutor be thrilled that the SC has pretty much directed the prosecutor to lead with this as the operative theory of the crime: that Meredith was killed in a sex-game gone wrong? Even Mr. Mignini had to travel two degrees of separation from that one!

I for one never ridiculed Galati's appeal document. I said it was written as if he were taking a side, as lawyers do (even though he's a judge, he acted as if a lawyer for a client). What would you have expected Judge Galati to write? Something critical of the client for whom he's writing the appeal document? It's what I would want my own lawyer to write even if I were lying through my teeth! It's what he's paid to do, and I draw no negative connotations from it.

What I do suspect, though, is that the SC motivations report is going to make the new Florence prosecutor's job impossible. There was a reason why Mignini had to abandon the theory the SC says is now prime.... does this mean that the new prosecutor cannot abandon it? I do not know the answer to that question.

I'm wondering if the new prosecutor has the option of simply dropping the charges and now not taking the case to trial? Can an Italian lawyer explain if this is possible?

I mean, the SC has tied one hand behind the new prosecutor's back. Then again, I would say that wouldn't I with the biases I hold?

Whatever the reasons why the "sex-game gone wrong theory" was abandoned - and remember it was abandoned at Massei's trial, not Hellmann's(!) a new prosecutor is going to have to present it, as if there is any evidence to support it.

Maybe he/she too will simply have to abandon it, and get Filomena and Sophie back on the stand to testify to how a racing stripe in a toilet and a joke vibrator, or a non returned hug, leads to a horrible massacre.

You see, the problem IS in the details is it no?

I don't suppose it's at all possible that when the report is fully read and understood, that there may be quite a few openings for the defence to exploit? That maybe they really are invited to explore fully the possibility that Guede acted alone, or that all the little details that the report say were ignored by Hellmann could not actually be fully gone through? That maybe if the defence were just absolutely more thorough in tying up as many loose ends as possible, and that all prosecution theories are fully addressed that maybe the SC would accept a not guilty verdict in the future?

If the next appeal concludes not guilty and the SC revokes that verdict can this process go on ad infinitum?
 
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