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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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anglolawyer said:
All clear enough but what I don't get is this idea that the SC is only concerned with matters of law and procedure. This passage seems to be suggesting that the scream is a sort of mandatory datum around which the facts, whatever they are, have to fit. How does that come about? Maybe it was someone else who screamed in an entirely unrelated incident. How do the SC judges know? How is it a matter of law?
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The best I can do is that the SC seems to be ruling that this is only one aspect of a larger, loosely assembled circumstantial case that Hellmann wrongly dismissed.

The SC seems to be saying that if there are all sorts of, even unconnected elements of fact there is actually no need for a unifying narrative pointing to guilt. The SC seems to be saying that it is correct to do what Massei did - simply invent things (like Knox innocently carrying the kitchen knife for protection - something the prosecution didn't even claim) to bolster a wide ranging "feeling" that they might be guilty.
 
anglolawyer said:
All clear enough but what I don't get is this idea that the SC is only concerned with matters of law and procedure. This passage seems to be suggesting that the scream is a sort of mandatory datum around which the facts, whatever they are, have to fit. How does that come about? Maybe it was someone else who screamed in an entirely unrelated incident. How do the SC judges know? How is it a matter of law?
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It will be interesting to read a better translation but now it does seem as if the SC is ruling on much more than legal procedures.

I thought I did remember that the kids' legal team did have some minor role in RG's trial.

I do believe that the way they are now handling this will give Amanda ammunition for resisting extradition.

If I were running the supertanker PR I'd get the translation on this ruling out as fast as possible and restart the book tour. I'd send out better spokespeople than AB and I would promote the fact that Amanda's book was never about a murder but rather a trial and the mistreatment at the hands of the Italians.

The idea that the Italian system would allow the use of the results of trial that the defendants didn't have full standing in will not play well in Peoria.
 
Grinder said:
It will be interesting to read a better translation but now it does seem as if the SC is ruling on much more than legal procedures.

I thought I did remember that the kids' legal team did have some minor role in RG's trial.

I do believe that the way they are now handling this will give Amanda ammunition for resisting extradition.
If I were running the supertanker PR I'd get the translation on this ruling out as fast as possible and restart the book tour. I'd send out better spokespeople than AB and I would promote the fact that Amanda's book was never about a murder but rather a trial and the mistreatment at the hands of the Italians.

The idea that the Italian system would allow the use of the results of trial that the defendants didn't have full standing in will not play well in Peoria.
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The absolute BEST that can be said of this, is that the SC is telling Florence that it has to find evidence to rule out, one by one, all the scenarios the prosecution ever put forward. The next SC will rule, in 2015, that the Florence court did not rule out the Satanic rite theory. This could go on for decades.

But as for Amanda and extradition, Raffaele had better get out of Italy.
 
Bill Williams said:
The absolute BEST that can be said of this, is that the SC is telling Florence that it has to find evidence to rule out, one by one, all the scenarios the prosecution ever put forward. The next SC will rule, in 2015, that the Florence court did not rule out the Satanic rite theory. This could go on for decades.
But as for Amanda and extradition, Raffaele had better get out of Italy.
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I agree, it does appear Raffaele needs to get out of Dodge. I find it very troubling that one of the main points mentioned in the article seems to be saying the time of death needs to be adjusted to match the time of the purported scream, with no mention of the scientific analysis of the victims digestion of her last meal. This is especially aggravating because it was a direct order from Mignini at the crime scene to not take the body temperature that made it much harder to determine exactly when Meredith died.
 
Bill Williams said:
The best I can do is that the SC seems to be ruling that this is only one aspect of a larger, loosely assembled circumstantial case that Hellmann wrongly dismissed.

The SC seems to be saying that if there are all sorts of, even unconnected elements of fact there is actually no need for a unifying narrative pointing to guilt. The SC seems to be saying that it is correct to do what Massei did - simply invent things (like Knox innocently carrying the kitchen knife for protection - something the prosecution didn't even claim) to bolster a wide ranging "feeling" that they might be guilty.
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I don't have a problem with the judges stretching to put a narrative together as that is a very difficult task and I doubt they ever get a contested case 100% right.

The issue I have is that the evidence is not definitive. The luminol prints don't match Amanda and they didn't test positive for blood and they therefore weren't dated so what value do they have as evidence?

The bathmat print is not a match so what value does it have?

There is evidence but not not solid evidence.
 
Bill Williams said:
The absolute BEST that can be said of this, is that the SC is telling Florence that it has to find evidence to rule out, one by one, all the scenarios the prosecution ever put forward. The next SC will rule, in 2015, that the Florence court did not rule out the Satanic rite theory. This could go on for decades.
But as for Amanda and extradition, Raffaele had better get out of Italy.
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GWCarver said:
I agree, it does appear Raffaele needs to get out of Dodge. I find it very troubling that one of the main points mentioned in the article seems to be saying the time of death needs to be adjusted to match the time of the purported scream, with no mention of the scientific analysis of the victims digestion of her last meal. This is especially aggravating because it was a direct order from Mignini at the crime scene to not take the body temperature that made it much harder to determine exactly when Meredith died.
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I disagree, and this is the reason why we need to read the report.

The SC could be directing the Florence court simply to deal with the issue. The SC might be overturning Hellmann's report simply on the grounds of all this stuff the SC needs dealing with BEFORE it will accept an acquittal for the pair.

So, the Florence marching orders seem to be - deal with the issue of sex-game gone wrong, seal with the issue of nultiple attackers, deal with the issue of the scream (and hence the late TOD) and if you can show why the sex-game is not there, why the scream can be ruled out as evidence, and why this was not a sex-game gone wrong, then we'll sign off on an acquittal.
 
Bill Williams said:
I disagree, and this is the reason why we need to read the report.

The SC could be directing the Florence court simply to deal with the issue. The SC might be overturning Hellmann's report simply on the grounds of all this stuff the SC needs dealing with BEFORE it will accept an acquittal for the pair.

So, the Florence marching orders seem to be - deal with the issue of sex-game gone wrong, seal with the issue of nultiple attackers, deal with the issue of the scream (and hence the late TOD) and if you can show why the sex-game is not there, why the scream can be ruled out as evidence, and why this was not a sex-game gone wrong, then we'll sign off on an acquittal.
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I'm not sure what we disagree about here. Perhaps you could explain. In any case, Oggi reports the trial will be redone in its entirety.

http://translate.google.com/transla...-meredith-amanda-raffaele+74&biw=1366&bih=681
 
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I think it's best to wait a few more hours for more specific quotes from the report. I wonder what they say about the C/V report (if they say anything)and if it will be allowed in the new trial.
 
RoseMontague said:
It seems to indicate they are throwing out the DNA debate and focusing on what exactly, maybe the large bag theory of the crime. Beats me. Strange.
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Then again they could only be listing their reasons for overturning the aquittals. But as a fact finding court I assume that the Florence court is free to make findings of fact as it sees fit. If it wants to reach a decision that the SC will sign off on, then obviously it needs to address the SC's issues.
 
Hey Machiavelli, good buddy - if you are out there could you drop in and provide us a link to the CA motivation that came out today?
 
GWCarver said:
Hey Machiavelli, good buddy - if you are out there could you drop in and provide us a link to the CA motivation that came out today?
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I'm not sure Machiavelli will return. I will ask him for his sleep clinician's credentials for the remarks he made about Knox's ability to not need sleep, therefore she was fresh and raring to go at the interrogation.
 
Bill Williams said:
I'm not sure Machiavelli will return. I will ask him for his sleep clinician's credentials for the remarks he made about Knox's ability to not need sleep, therefore she was fresh and raring to go at the interrogation.
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:)

Pmop57 found a link to the motivation over at IA, but it is a pdf in Italian, and doesn't look like it is in a format that will be easy to translate by software because it is basically photocopies of the pages.

http://www.oggi.it/attualita/files/2013/06/omicidio_kercher_motivazioni_cassazione.pdf

This article at the Huffington Post says the CA found Guede was the "main protagonist". Guess he's not 'less guilty' after all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/amanda-knox-retrial_n_3459985.html
 
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Bill Williams said:
I disagree, and this is the reason why we need to read the report.

The SC could be directing the Florence court simply to deal with the issue. The SC might be overturning Hellmann's report simply on the grounds of all this stuff the SC needs dealing with BEFORE it will accept an acquittal for the pair.

So, the Florence marching orders seem to be - deal with the issue of sex-game gone wrong, seal with the issue of nultiple attackers, deal with the issue of the scream (and hence the late TOD) and if you can show why the sex-game is not there, why the scream can be ruled out as evidence, and why this was not a sex-game gone wrong, then we'll sign off on an acquittal.
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This seems very optimistic and from what I've seen so far plus the disdain toward the only thing favorable toward AK/Raf (ie Hellmann), I see no reason to believe the Italians will make any rulings that favor AK/Raf.

The seemingly insatiable desire to find these two guilty is scary and confounding to me.

At this point it feels like I'm rooting for a 4 point play in basketball with half a second left and my team having to take the ball from the other end of the court.
 
yimyammer said:
This seems very optimistic and from what I've seen so far plus the disdain toward the only thing favorable toward AK/Raf (ie Hellmann), I see no reason to believe the Italians will make any rulings that favor AK/Raf.

The seemingly insatiable desire to find these two guilty is scary and confounding to me.

At this point it feels like I'm rooting for a 4 point play in basketball with half a second left and my team having to take the ball from the other end of the court.
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Yep.

It also feels like a Kafka novel.

Those poor kids. This is torture.
 
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