Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

we'll soon see...and we already know the outcome will be appealed. so another year? or two?

Well if the SC orders Florence to rubber stamp something maybe a year. If Florence is free to hold a real trial de novo and overturns Massei maybe 5 or 10 years.

What a system.

 

[JREF2010]

Here’s a question is it possible for the next trial to follow the correct court procedure and adhere to their criminal codes and arrive at the same verdict as the nulled Hellmann court?

Of course they are very likely to be acquitted again.
a) The knife results are simply "no blood found from a non cleaned knife".
b) The bra clasp will still have the same issues. There is nothing else for Raffaele in the cottage.

Without these two items they have nothing but accusations and blob prints. Amandas DNA from her own bathroom, or apartment for that matter, isnt going to fly in any fair trial.

I will guess the Florence court might accept more of the Defenses requests, if it is as you say...a full retrial of the Appeal.

I'm hoping this court sends a investigation into the interrogation....though they'll have to find Napoleoni, as shes been suspended, right? She wasnt too quick to show up at the other trial either. Kind of obstinate behavior these Perugia cops... the police have far too much power and corruption in that city it seems. And this time maybe it wont be Migninni doing the investigation of the interrogation. wishful thinking?

 

[Grinder]

The bookkeeper wrote this:


Is it a fact that the accused were discovered at the scene of a murder around noon the following day?

They were discovered after calling Filomena to meet them there. They were waiting for people.

Is it a fact that the accused had no verifiable accounting of their whereabouts for most of the prior evening right up until the moment they were found on the cottage property?

As was the case for most couples spending an evening together.


Is it a fact that Knox told the police that her boss murdered Meredith? Is it a fact that Knox told a prosecutor, six weeks after her arrest and against legal advice, that her statements about Patrick were not lies?

Well what did the chief mean when he said that she told them what they knew to be correct? It is so obvious that they led her to make the statement against PL but if one prefers to believe she did it so be it.

 

[Dan O.]

Knife news

The progression of the knife story seems to be typical for these Italians. The "theory" that the murder weapon was a pen knife magically appears in the investigator's head coincidentally just after they overhear Raffaele talking to his dad about carrying the flick knife on a tapped phone call. Then when the lab fails to find any trace on the flick knives, the traces pop up on a kitchen knife collected for no other reason than it "looked clean" even though it wasn't.

• 2007-11-05 21:11 GMT BBC News - Monday
  Miss Kercher, from Coulsdon, south London, is thought to have been stabbed with a pocket knife.
  Police believe she was stabbed with a penknife sometime after 10pm.
• 2007-11-07 Mirror - Ryan Parry In Perugia
  The murder weapon - thought to be a pocket knife - was still being hunted.
• 2007-11-08 Ryan Parry In Perugia
  Knox's confession came as forensic experts were last night carrying out tests on a flick knife found at the home of her 24-year-old boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito. Police believe it was used to slash Meredith's throat.
• 2007-11-09 19:04 GMT BBC News - Friday
  Police allege Mr Lumumba entered Miss Kercher's room to have sex, during which something went wrong. They believe Mr Sollecito went in to join them and pulled out a knife.
• 2007-11-09 Mail
  The judge [Matteini] added that a flick knife found in his possession with an 8.5cm blade and which was compatible with the wound in Meredith's throat was also of significance.
• 2007-11-09 Mirror.co.uk
  Judge Claudia Matteini: "She was then threatened with a knife, which Sollecito always carried with him, and with which Meredith was stabbed in the neck."
• 2007-11-12 Mirror
  A telephone call between Meredith murder suspect Raffaele Sollecito and his father revealed the 23-year-old carries a knife.
  In the conversation intercepted by police on November 5 - the day before he was held - Sollecito's father Franco says: "Raffaele don't walk about with a knife. If the police find it on you, who knows what they may think?"
• 2007-11-13 The New York Times - IAN FISHER
  Concerning Mr. Sollecito, the police say that they found a footprint from Nike sneakers that match his, and that a pocketknife he carried could have been the murder weapon. :His lawyer, Mr. Brusco, says he is waiting for the laboratory reports. “If there is no blood on the sneakers and no blood on the knife, there is no proof,” he said.
• 2007-11-15 17:41 GMT BBC News - Thursday
  DNA belonging to Amanda Knox, a suspect in the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, has been found on a knife, police in Italy say.
  The knife, which also had the victim's DNA on it, was recovered from Miss Knox's boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito.
• 2007-11-16 (Raffaele's Diary)
  Last night I saw on television that the knife that I had at home (the one from the kitchen) has traces of Meredith and Amanda (latent)
• 2007-11-18 (Raffaele's Diary)
  I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then return home. The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen is because once while cooking together, I shifted myself in the house handling the knife, I had the point on her hand, and immediately after I apologized but she had nothing done to her. So the only real explanation of the kitchen knife is this.
• 2007-11-19 Republica (Google translation)
  Raffaele Sollecito 's also not even found traces on the knife from the kitchen on the other hand, it points to has been found DNA of Meredith and whose grip was discovered the genetic code of Amanda. Begins to glimpse the suspicion, at least among some of the investigators, on the evening of 1 November, the London home of the student was not too crowded and that the number of killers of Meredith Kercher will soon be drastically reduced.
• 2007-11-30 17:59 GMT BBC News - Friday
  According to a 36-page submission made to the court by Mr Mignini, Miss Knox is placed at the crime scene by a bloodstain on a tap, and her DNA was found on a knife at Mr Sollecito's house.
• 2008-01-24 21:10 GMT BBC News - Thursday
  Italian Police are investigating claims a man was threatened with a knife by a suspect in the Meredith Kercher case, 24 hours before the student was killed.
  The man is reported as saying Amanda Knox, Miss Kercher's flatmate, was with the two other suspects when she waved a knife at him after he crashed his car.

 

[anglolawyer]

Possible but still stupid

I can't make my mind up which is a bigger waste of time: predicting the SC motivation or making lists of 'hard' facts. But it's fun!

- The lamp was not there (and proves Mignini is bent)
- The cops deleted the text
- She was 'strongly suspected' but not a 'formal suspect' so everything is OK and her confessions are usable against her (source: Machiavelli 'we don't need no stinking laws')
- Matt Jones will be toast 'over there' if he declares for innocence
- The SC will/will not totally overturn Hellman
- Facts will still be facts whatever the SC says.
- The ECHR will/will not overturn this pile of crap

Deep, huh?

 

[Grinder]

I can't make my mind up which is a bigger waste of time: predicting the SC motivation or making lists of 'hard' facts. But it's fun!

- The lamp was not there (and proves Mignini is bent)
- The cops deleted the text
- She was 'strongly suspected' but not a 'formal suspect' so everything is OK and her confessions are usable against her (source: Machiavelli 'we don't need no stinking laws')
- Matt Jones will be toast 'over there' if he declares for innocence
- The SC will/will not totally overturn Hellman
- Facts will still be facts whatever the SC says.
- The ECHR will/will not overturn this pile of crap

Deep, huh?

Amsterdam is great!

 

[RandyN]

I can't make my mind up which is a bigger waste of time: predicting the SC motivation or making lists of 'hard' facts. But it's fun!

- The lamp was not there (and proves Mignini is bent)
- The cops deleted the text
- She was 'strongly suspected' but not a 'formal suspect' so everything is OK and her confessions are usable against her (source: Machiavelli 'we don't need no stinking laws')
- Matt Jones will be toast 'over there' if he declares for innocence
- The SC will/will not totally overturn Hellman
- Facts will still be facts whatever the SC says.
- The ECHR will/will not overturn this pile of crap

Deep, huh?

Look anything is possible...remember this is the country that is home to a Captain of a cruise ship that after sinking it tripped and fell into a lifeboat...same lifeboat as his girlfriend.

The country that arrested scientists for failing to predict an earthquake. This alone shows perfectly how clownish and abusive the legal system of Italy actually is. The last smart Italian left to live in France a long time ago...that was da Vinci.

Twenty people arrested by order of Mignini and put thru hell for years. The judge is a year late writing the 1000 plus page motivation report that declares all twenty innocent...and Mignini says he will appeal...and no one investigates this insane idiot.

Hellmann bent over backwards for the prosecution and allowed or ignored odd issues created by them and their witnesses...meanwhile he rejected 99% of the defense appeal items outright...allowing just a few items for review ...one of which was an independent review of DNA data. He gave the fools an easy out and they rejected it. Now lets see what the lawless corrupt clowns come up with.

The idea that anything at all to do with Guedes trial can somehow be injected into the trial of RS and AK is simply foolish and insane so therefore in Italy we can expect it. If they go this route I suggest the defense appeal based on ineffectual defense since the defense was not allowed to participate in that case at all. What is it...a writ of habeas corpus.

If the Italians claim that the SC ruling in Guedes case needs to be reconciled with this case then it will be interesting to see what president they try to pull that trick out of...

The European Court of Human Rights already understands clearly what a joke the Italian judicial system is...a corrupt joke of abuse and human rights violations...worst by far...along with Turkey... of all tracked countries. Neck and neck for sheer number of violations charged and convicted of...who knows how many cases never even make it to the ECOHR?

The Italians are fools if they think this time it will be just two half asleep local yokels plus a pregnant distracted political lawyer. The defense table should be loaded up for bear...get a few American lawyers in the mix and watch them get tossed into jail...then watch the press take off.

Load up the table with a world class mixture of scientific experts to not just refute the crackpot science so far but to embarrass them at each and every misconceived step. I happen to think C&V was far too easy on the Italian blunders...they also allowed the Biondo and Stefanoni team a chance to save some amount of face and get away from the disaster they created. But these weak minded fools want to keep playing...they forget we have seen all their cards and know all their tells...so no more bluffing. Its gloves off time...show these corrupt bass turds where the bear **** in the woods.

 

[JREF2010]

I can't make my mind up which is a bigger waste of time: predicting the SC motivation or making lists of 'hard' facts.

or reading Judges translated "fiction filled" reports...

I think other than Rudy Guede , everyone is guessing.
And due to the inability of technology, we can't prove what is a lie or the truth.
So instead we rely on men in white wigs, wearing red silk robes to find the truth.

 

[tsig]

Look anything is possible...remember this is the country that is home to a Captain of a cruise ship that after sinking it tripped and fell into a lifeboat...same lifeboat as his girlfriend.

The country that arrested scientists for failing to predict an earthquake. This alone shows perfectly how clownish and abusive the legal system of Italy actually is. The last smart Italian left to live in France a long time ago...that was da Vinci.

Twenty people arrested by order of Mignini and put thru hell for years. The judge is a year late writing the 1000 plus page motivation report that declares all twenty innocent...and Mignini says he will appeal...and no one investigates this insane idiot.

Hellmann bent over backwards for the prosecution and allowed or ignored odd issues created by them and their witnesses...meanwhile he rejected 99% of the defense appeal items outright...allowing just a few items for review ...one of which was an independent review of DNA data. He gave the fools an easy out and they rejected it. Now lets see what the lawless corrupt clowns come up with.

The idea that anything at all to do with Guedes trial can somehow be injected into the trial of RS and AK is simply foolish and insane so therefore in Italy we can expect it. If they go this route I suggest the defense appeal based on ineffectual defense since the defense was not allowed to participate in that case at all. What is it...a writ of habeas corpus.

If the Italians claim that the SC ruling in Guedes case needs to be reconciled with this case then it will be interesting to see what president they try to pull that trick out of...

The European Court of Human Rights already understands clearly what a joke the Italian judicial system is...a corrupt joke of abuse and human rights violations...worst by far...along with Turkey... of all tracked countries. Neck and neck for sheer number of violations charged and convicted of...who knows how many cases never even make it to the ECOHR?

The Italians are fools if they think this time it will be just two half asleep local yokels plus a pregnant distracted political lawyer. The defense table should be loaded up for bear...get a few American lawyers in the mix and watch them get tossed into jail...then watch the press take off.

Load up the table with a world class mixture of scientific experts to not just refute the crackpot science so far but to embarrass them at each and every misconceived step. I happen to think C&V was far too easy on the Italian blunders...they also allowed the Biondo and Stefanoni team a chance to save some amount of face and get away from the disaster they created. But these weak minded fools want to keep playing...they forget we have seen all their cards and know all their tells...so no more bluffing. Its gloves off time...show these corrupt bass turds where the bear **** in the woods.

I'm surprised your keyboard could take such a pounding.

 

[Supernaut]

I'm surprised your keyboard could take such a pounding.

I'm guessing you're still using a PS/2 keyboard.

 

[snook1]

Apparently, the Supreme Court's reasoning is out...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Link to a news report

Link.

 

[GWCarver]

Link.

Thanks for the link. The translation is on the high-end of murky, but it sounds like they are saying the sex game aspect was downplayed by the appeals court.

 

[anglolawyer]

Link.

The outcome of this "osmotic evaluation - detected the judges of the Supreme Court - will be 'decisive not only to demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the competitors" Rudy Guede, already' condemned definitively. - See more at: http://en.apocalisselaica.net/fuori...izi-su-amanda-e-raffaele#sthash.tL60Yvpb.dpuf

WTF is an osmotic evaluation? I thought plants did osmosis. I hope the above is not saying what I think it's saying.

 

[GWCarver]

WTF is an osmotic evaluation? I thought plants did osmosis. I hope the above is not saying what I think it's saying.

You mean they are saying that Guede's guilt should flow over to Amanda and Raffaele in order to equalize it because they were there playing sex games and participating in murdering Meredith Kercher?

 

[anglolawyer]

You mean they are saying that Guede's guilt should flow over to Amanda and Raffaele in order to equalize it because they were there playing sex games and participating in murdering Meredith Kercher?

I dunno. I just can't see what the findings against Guede in a separate trial in which A and R were not represented can have do with anything. But trying to penetrate the murk this seems to be the way the old goats are playing it. The worse the better in a way.

Presumably the motivation is going to be like reading Galati again

 

[Bill Williams]

WTF is an osmotic evaluation? I thought plants did osmosis. I hope the above is not saying what I think it's saying.

We all need to read this, and there needs to be a faithful English translation if I'm going to read it, but the first blush seems to be.....

.... that the SC has ruled that it is not good enough for the Hellmann appeals court simply to have ruled that the prosecution did not prove its case. When Barbie Nadeau said about the Dec 2009 conviction at the first level, "The prosecution case was weak, but the defence case was weaker," the SC seems to be agreeing that it really is a case of the prosecution being able to win this on penalty kicks in overtime.

Maybe Barbie Nadeau understands the Italian way better than we give her credit for, and it is the reason why she keeps going on about it.

But we need an English version of this. Right now it appears that the SC is agreeing that Massei had enough probablies to build a circumstantial case. And they seem to be ruling that actually proving that Knox is not forensically in the murder room, and that there is no case to be made for the transport of the knife - is not enough.

I just don't get, though,this business of the Hellmann court not tackling the issue of a sex-game gone wrong motive. I mean, even Massei does not attribute motive to this. Motive to Massei is Guede's and for Massei the students monetarily chose evil.

Hopefully a faithful translation into English will allow us English-only speakers to sort this out. In the meantime a provisional comment is - this has potential for being a larger scandal for Italy's judicial system than suggested by even Machiavelli's wildest posts on the subject.

Maybe Machiavelli IS telegraphing what's real and instrumental in Italy.

 

[GWCarver]

Here is another point by the CA, having to do with the scream and time of death:

"Meredith is dead perhaps for an erotic game of the group"
„he agonizing scream AND TIME OF DEATH - The time of death of Meredith should refer to '"piercing scream", "definitely" the victim heard from some witnesses, and, therefore, it should be delayed with respect to the reconstruction made ​​by the judges of 'appeal, the judges write. "In the face of consistent data and necessarily leading to a time subsequent to that established by the Court, to which you must return the heartrending cry of the poor definitely Meredith," it said in the judgment handed down today, the courts of second instance have "rather pull the ranks of the representation of Guede "contained in a communication via chat with a friend" made in an environment external to the trial and of absolute lie. " These conclusions of the appellate courts, the Supreme Court points out, "are even more strident, if one considers that only the scream heartbreaking it was to do th“

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http://www.perugiatoday.it

 

[anglolawyer]

Here is another point by the CA, having to do with the scream and time of death:

"Meredith is dead perhaps for an erotic game of the group"
„he agonizing scream AND TIME OF DEATH - The time of death of Meredith should refer to '"piercing scream", "definitely" the victim heard from some witnesses, and, therefore, it should be delayed with respect to the reconstruction made ​​by the judges of 'appeal, the judges write. "In the face of consistent data and necessarily leading to a time subsequent to that established by the Court, to which you must return the heartrending cry of the poor definitely Meredith," it said in the judgment handed down today, the courts of second instance have "rather pull the ranks of the representation of Guede "contained in a communication via chat with a friend" made in an environment external to the trial and of absolute lie. " These conclusions of the appellate courts, the Supreme Court points out, "are even more strident, if one considers that only the scream heartbreaking it was to do th“

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http://www.perugiatoday.it

All clear enough but what I don't get is this idea that the SC is only concerned with matters of law and procedure. This passage seems to be suggesting that the scream is a sort of mandatory datum around which the facts, whatever they are, have to fit. How does that come about? Maybe it was someone else who screamed in an entirely unrelated incident. How do the SC judges know? How is it a matter of law?

 

[Dan O.]

Is the source for the actual supreme court document available? The existing new pieces seem to have a single author and may be biased in what is being reported.