Tarot cards, they are AMAZING!

[dafydd]

If you're going to be skeptical about tarot, I think you should consider the mystical/occult side of it, which is mainly concerned with the major arcana, and how the cards/"keys" fit on the kabbalistic Tree Of Life. This part is not so much used for divination but as a meditation tool for spiritual understanding:

http://www.joyousworld.com/qabalah/index.html

Why? It's a load of old crap.

 

[MikeSun5]

I've always used Tarot for what I described - to help people make decisions.

That's cool. I've always used it just to freak people out. I've found that tarot combined with some simple sleight of hand tricks and heavy cold reading can really blow some minds.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171450

This thread might also be of interest

Now I can use the cards to play games. Yay!

 

[PartSkeptic]

You invited me to look at your post. It contains quite a bit of truth.

I still have my cards and drag them out every now and again. They're anything but a game, in my opinion, but let me explain why before anyone jumps in.

Agreed. But they can be used as “entertainment” if everyone agrees it is a bit of fun.

The "power" of Tarot (such as it is) is the power of symbolism. I like to use a deck with detailed illustrations, such as the Rider-Waite, or my personal favourite Norse Tarot. Each card has a situation illustrated on it, and when you draw these out randomly, you make connections between them. That's what people do - they make patterns.

I bought a Rider-Waite pack in the mid-1970’s together with the book. It is the one thing that has stayed with me – not sure why. The book looks like an ancient manuscript. The cards are like new, although the case is bound with layers of tape. This pack has the best illustrations, and the best symbolism.

A lot of the tales about the cards are unnecessary ritual - buying them, wrapping them in silk, storing them in an ornate carved box, and so on. These may impress others, but the “talent” is in the person doing the reading.

Each card has a carefully-constructed story associated with it - or rather, part of a story. You need very little assistance to link these independent story pieces together, and even less to relate it to something in your own life - especially if you approach the subject with an a priori assumption that it is going to relate to your life, which each and every querent does.

You oversimplify. Each card has multiple meanings, and can mean something very different depending on how it is used, where it appears, and what symbols stand out as meaningful. One reader will see a very different “story” to another. My late wife tried to learn the Tarot, and would ask me my interpretation of the cards. Mine was often radically to hers, and sometimes the opposite meaning.

 

[PartSkeptic]

It has been my experience that the stories generated randomly by the Tarot have a tendency to illuminate, or clarify, someone's thinking on a subject. They're a assistant to decision making.

If there is an outside influence, then the cards are not random. This is a mistaken assumption based on your presumption that there is no supernatural. They are helpful in the way you suggest.

But you ignore the fact that the cards could also present new information that was not available to the querent, and is often contrary to their thinking or consideration.

When you flip a coin to make a decision, how many possible outcomes are there? Two? Wrong.

There are actually four possible outcomes to a coin-flip-assisted decision: a heads you like, a heads you don't like, a tails you like, and a tails you don't like. Flipping the coin helps you to decide what option you prefer by "forcing" you to take one or the other. How many times have you said "heads hamburger, tails salad", flipped heads and decided "you know what? I think I'll just have a salad," contrary to the result of the flip?

Nice thinking. But you ignore the fact that you have combined two distinct processes. What the coin toss result was, and whether a person decides to accept or reject the result.

Some Tarot readings are similar to a coin toss. Others also have a yes or no but with more information as to why. Some reading say that some things may happen, and they include the influence of the cards.

Other readings are much more complex and give information and warnings.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Tarot works the same way. By putting symbols in your way, you can identify options and make decisions that you otherwise would vacillate over, or be ambivalent about.

Tarot, like a coin flip, is a decision-making tool. Should I quit my job because I hate my boss? Nine swords suggests that you're overreacting to the situation. Five coins indicates possible financial difficulties. The Sun shows that there is a brighter future ahead. Okay, I won't quit my job.

The Tarot can suggest very new possibilities. Not the obvious choices. I was looking at a legal matter, and the Tarot indicated that there was double-dealing by a trusted partner. Being on the lookout prevented the double-cross.

Can the Tarot predict future events? It depends on what your definition of predict is. Certainly it can form part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn't quit my job because of what the cards said, and now the boss I hate has retired. Did the cards predict that? It depends on your interpretation. Certainly the "brighter future" would not have happened if I had ignored the cards and quit my job, and then I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But the fact that humans are pattern-makers, and the well-known phenomenon of confirmation bias, means that I will attribute more meaning to the cards than is inherent in the images alone.

Many Tarot readers have no psychic talent. They then have to prompt, probe, use ambiguous meanings, and tell the person what they want to hear. Do they serve a function? It could be that one day a “Higher Power” says I will influence the cards and what the reader says. It could also be that a “Dark Power” does the same.

 

[Vortigern99]

PartSkeptic, do you realize you're responding to posts made over three years ago?

 

[Pixel42]

PartSkeptic, do you realize you're responding to posts made over three years ago?

He was given the link to this thread in a different one and invited to respond to that specific post (by the poster who made it) in order not to derail the other one.

 

[Vortigern99]

Ah, I see. That's a horse of a different color then.

 

[sackett]

Rider-Waite cheroots, I mean taroots -- oh dammit, you know!

I had never heard of the Rider-Waite deck. I'll have to look over my girl friend's deck* to see if it's one.

But why can't we all make up our own tarot decks? Surely a modest talent for simple cartoonery, a scanner, and a color printer would be sufficient? You could print them 4-up on card or folder stock, and then trim them with a paper-cutter. Damn! Think of the fun you could have with the gullible! Especially the paying gullible! Yes, I'm an evil, evil person. And aren't you jealous?

* "Deck" is not some kind of salacious slang, btw. Well...I suppose it could be, with patience.

 

[PartSkeptic]

I had never heard of the Rider-Waite deck. I'll have to look over my girl friend's deck* to see if it's one.

But why can't we all make up our own tarot decks? Surely a modest talent for simple cartoonery, a scanner, and a color printer would be sufficient? You could print them 4-up on card or folder stock, and then trim them with a paper-cutter. Damn! Think of the fun you could have with the gullible! Especially the paying gullible! Yes, I'm an evil, evil person. And aren't you jealous?

* "Deck" is not some kind of salacious slang, btw. Well...I suppose it could be, with patience.

Funnily enough you can. And people do. Hence all the different versions. And make money from it.

Like diamonds in the dirt, you need separate the gems form the tons of ordinary dirt. There are genuine attempts to help people and there are those who have selfish motives.

Evil - not necessarily. Here you are just cynical, and you have reason to be.

I would wonder about your slang, though. Do you know a good exorcist?

People read tea-leaves, entrails, the layout of bones. Ultimately it is to get information. Some people get the information directly without the "medium".

Pixel42 - thanks for explaining.

 

[Pixel42]

If there is an outside influence, then the cards are not random. This is a mistaken assumption based on your presumption that there is no supernatural.

It is the correct default assumption until and unless objective evidence is produced that cannot be explained without recourse to the supernatural. So far no-one has produced any. Certainly Tarot card reading has yet to provide any. It's your presumption that the supernatural exists that needs to be justified, not the presumption that it doesn't.

ETA: Just dug up this thread describing a test of a tarot card reader I did a while back

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-78288.html

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes, I invited PartSkeptic to look at this thread. I'll respond in detail soon.

 

[Apology]

for entertainment purposes only

If anyone would like to take a look at the many different tarot decks and the variety of layouts one can use, you can take a look online here:

Facade Free Tarot Readings and an Assortment of Other Rubbish

The Rider-Waite deck and the Celtic Cross layout are simply among the most popular. The variety of possible tarot reading styles is endless---a lot of people think there's only one way.

The Cat People deck is one of my favorites just because it's so bizarre.

 

[eir_de_scania]

You want to see Tarot decks? Try this:

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/list.shtml

Much nicer than entrails, and just as "useful" for divination.

 

[Apology]

You want to see Tarot decks? Try this:

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/list.shtml

Much nicer than entrails, and just as "useful" for divination.

There's nothing funny about being gay, but there is something funny about the Gay Tarot. The Guide of Cups in particular struck me as humorous due to a colloquial euphemism (mariposa).

 

[PartSkeptic]

It is the correct default assumption until and unless objective evidence is produced that cannot be explained without recourse to the supernatural. So far no-one has produced any. Certainly Tarot card reading has yet to provide any. It's your presumption that the supernatural exists that needs to be justified, not the presumption that it doesn't.

ETA: Just dug up this thread describing a test of a tarot card reader I did a while back

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-78288.html

You are correct that is is the correct default assumption if the supernatural does not exist. As to evidence see thread Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence if you have not already done so.

Thanks for the thread reference. Good information. A practical thinking psychic - are they a rare breed? Also the thread confirms the formula I am using for the odds.

Where can I get more info on that test? I am curious as to how specific the readings were.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Yes, I invited PartSkeptic to look at this thread. I'll respond in detail soon.

Great. Some more info. I do not let the querent handle the cards. They bend them, and in my opinion degrade them. Since the reader is the one who is supposed t have the "gift", it make sense that it is the reader's shuffle that removes the randomness from the cards. And now that I think about it, any Tarot reader I have gone to does the same.

I do not ask the person what their question is. I tell them the reading I am going to do applies to the next six months or so. How can one say that they are in a happy marriage when two years later there is a bitter divorce. I do not first put down a card to represent them. The first card must be the key card which tells me what the reading is going to be about.

I do not memorize the cards and their meanings. Too much information, especially since I do this very infrequently. I look at the layout and each card. I do know what each position represents. I get a general feel based on what symbol on the card seems to stand out. Only then do I reference the book to look up the meaning of each card, and decide what meaning is relevant. The cards must tell a "story" that is fairly specific.

Only once I have the story do I tell the person what the cards say. The person does not speak, and I focus on the cards, not the person.

The reading I did for a woman was all about problems in their relationship, and the bitterness and hatred between them. Since I had met the couple in group beach walks, and there was no evidence of problems, I told the woman that there must be an influence from her brother who was going through a very nasty divorce, and that it had to be his reading. I did tell her exactly what the cards were saying. Two weeks later she left her husband, left the house and left the kids. She let him know just how bitter she was. This was not a case of a self-fulfilling prophecy, although it may have triggered the divorce.

There are many other ways to ask the cards for information, and I make up my own layouts depending on what information I want. So do your better psychics. When I see a psychic use the standard layout, and give me multiple meanings for each card, I am skeptical of their abilities.

I know one guy who does this at a well-known shop that advertises in-house psychics. He was a guide for a nature walk, and masseuse for a country spa I went to on a number of occassions. He is not on the level, and makes claims to impress his clients. I think he attracts spirits that are not good.

I am very particular about invoking a Power of Good before doing a reading, because readings can be influenced by mischievous spirits. If someone does not do this, then I would not trust them. I even do it when doing "fun" readings.

 

[steenkh]

Great. Some more info. I do not let the querent handle the cards. They bend them, and in my opinion degrade them.

When do you think the magic happens? When you shuffle the cards, or at the moment when a card is turned?

Would the magic disappear if the cards were kept with their front upwards all the time?

 

[Pixel42]

You are correct that is is the correct default assumption if the supernatural does not exist.

No, the correct default assumption is that the supernatural does not exist. That's the null hypothesis, which stands until it is disproved. It is up to those who think the supernatural does exist to disprove it.

As to evidence see thread Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence if you have not already done so.

I'm not sure if I've read that particular thread, but I've certainly read and participated in several similar ones. My position remains the same: until and unless I see evidence that disproves the null hypothesis, it remains the most reasonable default assumption. You being able to correctly intuit information about the people for whom you do tarot card readings is not such evidence; a consistent better-than-chance result in a properly controlled experiment such as the one I did in the thread I linked is.

Where can I get more info on that test? I am curious as to how specific the readings were.

Sadly that particular forum (it was a Doctor Who forum) is no more. There's a new one, but none of the threads from the old one were imported to it. As I recall the readings were mostly fairly general with a few more specific statements included. None were more than a couple of paragraphs long.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I played around with tarot reading years ago, and I took the extra difficulty step of reading for strangers (not for money - even when I was "wooish" I never conned people out of cash). It turned out that it wasn't difficult at all. I would start by having the person ask a question of the tarot (I believe this is standard) and then continue to interact with them while turning the cards. Folks were amazed by the accuracy but it was all cold reading patter assisted by the subjects' ignorance of the fact that the cards could mean anything I said they did in the moment they were revealed.

My feeling is that if there was something paranormal going on, the "death" card could just mean death and not have to be assigned the more nebulous (but far more useful to a cold/warm reader) meaning of "major change." Why? Because if it was truly paranormal the death card wouldn't come out when someone asks about their love life unless someone was actually going to die. The same, of course, could be said of the rest of the deck. Since, however, all the cards are assigned vague meanings that change based on the "interpreter," it's just an amusing pastime or a scam (depending on intent).

Indeed. And if it really worked you could reshuffle, ask the same question and get exactly the same cards as the first time but books on Tarot expressly forbid this.

I own a few tarot decks and have done readings for friends, all of whom stated they were 'amazed' how accurate I was. Sadly, even when I explained how they had fed over half the information to me* during the reading, some still remained convinced I / the tarot had something 'special' happening. Which is why I stopped giving readings.

*This was really overt as in 'This indicates an authority figure...' 'That's my dad! I can't believe you identified I had a problem with my dad. Did you see that everyone, the cards showed the problem with my dad clearly. This is amazing!' That individual still talks about it years later and the reading gets more accurate every time! It was so damn easy I have to admit the thought of how easily I could make money at it did occur - luckily I already had a well paid job.