The "What should replace religion?" question

[dann]

People without healthcare need healthcare, not charlatans.

My point exactly! And you seem to presume that they'd somehow get health care if only they'd stop being superstitious:

It seems far more cynical to leave people to the clutches of superstition because they happen to be poor or to live in the wrong part of the world.

That is the idealist fiction that many skeptics seem to believe: If only Africans would stop going to the witch doctor, proper doctors would suddenly, magically, appear. In this case, however, "the clutches of superstition" aren't really the problem. The lack of (affordable) doctors are.

From a recent article:

The unaffordability (!) of superior health care and education forces (!) members of society to seek alternatives to modern medicine and traditional churches to (maintain the comforting illusion that they ... dann) have ailments cured and socio-economic situations improved. http://www.informante.web.na/index....roy-namibia-&catid=16:off-the-desk&Itemid=102

By the way, the major objections of this guy seem to be that people tend to leave "traditional churches" in favour of the new ones with faith healers and witchdoctors, so it's no wonder that he doesn't see the "unaffordability of superior health care and education" as the major problem. Skeptics, however, should be able to come up with better suggestions than pastors ...

Don't follow your own advice, I see. You just like to argue. Straw man after straw man. Do you really not see what you are doing?

PS "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

(OK, I'll elucidate: watch that scene in The Life of Brian, to recall the whole "splittist" arse-chasing behaviour of the old-style political Left... your style reminds me of that. It's off-putting and counter productive. Make of that what you will. In other words, ask yourself what you really want to achieve.)

Do you at least recognize what the article says, i.e. that poverty-stricken Africans, when they get ill, are faced with the choice between going to (and consequently: believing in) witchdoctors or rejecting superstition and consequently the (vain!) hope of being cured, i.e. unenlightened or enlightened suffering?

Do you recognize that this hope is exactly the need that James Randi often refers to when he says that woos not only want to but actually need to believe?

Do you consequently recognize that this is a major difference between the situation in, on the one hand, Africa, and on the other, Britain or Scandinavia where a considerable number of people resort to alternative (= woo) medicine in addition to the professional medical treatment they already receive?

And do you recognize that this difference makes it cynical for skeptics to address Africans visting a witch doctor the same way they address users of alt. med. in wealthier countries - who actually have an (infinitely better!) alternative to woo medicine?


PS Only for Scandinavians: Poverty & Health

PPS "To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

 

[Hazel]

Catharsis (as in religious ecstasy): in a social context, raves (ecstasy! ).

In a psychological context: low-dose psychedelic therapy.

Asydhouse, please tell me how you manage to highlight a line. Thanks.

 

[dann]

And, just like in the developed world, the prevalence and acceptance of witchdoctors and quackery actually do deter some people from seeking proper treatment even when they do have access to it.

Let me rephrase that for you, and, yes, I do know that this is not your intention, but it is the consequence:

".... so let's focus on the rich Africans who can afford to see a proper doctor!"

They, by the way, are the ones that you don't need to address anyway since they already go to the proper doctor - and they don't do so because they are more enlightened!
You can probably find a few wealthy, educated Africans, who also go see a witch doctor, but I really wouldn't worry about them - much the same way I didn't really worry too much about Steve Jobs ....

Why are many people in developing countries poor?

 

[dann]

Asydhouse, please tell me how you manage to highlight a line. Thanks.

BB code list

 

[Hazel]

Replace it for what purposes?

Cosmology: Science
Origin Stories: Science
Morality: Humanism - "Be excellent to one another"
Emotional support: Family and friends
Social Cohesion: Any group affiliation, even internet message boards
Reason to oppress or kill someone else because they are different: Nationalism, Racism, politics
Pretending that there is life after death: Sorry, you're on your own if self delusion is your thing

I'm not sure what other functions religion serves.

Keeps a group of preachers off the unemployment rolls.

 

[Arcade22]

Nothing. Then again the majority of non-religious people apparently need someone to tell them how to live their lives, how to act, what to value, what they are entitled from other people and so on. So just go ahead and replace religious thinking with other types of religious thinking that suits your mindset.

 

[Hazel]

To be fair, it's not the 'religions' that disregard it, that would have to involve the religions themself being sentient, like a thought that eminates from someone's brain and then goes on to have it's own self aware existence... it's people who interpret religion in ways that they consider to justify their own personal discriminations that disregard it.

Yes, I realise that certain religions have certain scriptures that seem to contradict their own versions of the Golden Rule, but one must ask, how did those contradictions come to be in the scriptures in the first place? Obviously because someone high up in the religion's higharchy who had a chip on his shoulder about something or other once placed them there.

Y'see, religions are very rarely written by one person, they usualy develop over a long period of time and tend to include scripture written by all sorts of different people who have all sorts of different views and agendas.

Take Christianity for example, according to it's New Testament scripture Jesus didn't once criticise homosexuals, the only criticism of homosexuality in the New Testament actualy comes from Paul the Apostle, a man who apparently never even met Jesus personaly (although he claimed to have met him in a vision) but went on to influence Christianity almost as much as Jesus himself did.

I've known plenty of Christians who completely disregard the Golden Rule, but I've also known plenty of Christians who practicaly live by it, people who would do anything to help their fellow man, regardless of whether he shares their beliefs or not. Same goes for Muslims. There are obviously lots of Muslims who completely disregard the Golden Rule, otherwise there wouldn't be Muslim terrorist attacks upon innocent people, but there are also a hell of a lot of Muslims for who those terrorist attacks are hidious acts that they consider no true Muslim would ever commit.

Personaly, I'm an atheist, so I obviously have no religious belief myself, but I don't have a problem with those who do have religious beliefs, just those who use religion to justify discrimination against others. After all, that's the essence of the Golden Rule, if I wish for the religious to respect my atheism, then I should start by respecting their theism. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with their beliefs or that I shouldn't debate against them, I just consider it to be distasteful to personaly attack somone because of their religious beliefs.

Right you are and take it all the way back to who wrote the laws in the Old Testament and why those particular laws, some of which we are all happy to ignore nowadays whether we have a faith in God or not.

I have always been curious about who started the story that God said all those laws and men wrote them down as they listened. And when. Especially when. It is a blank spot in my history of the Bible.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Let me rephrase that for you, and, yes, I do know that this is not your intention, but it is the consequence:

".... so let's focus on the rich Africans who can afford to see a proper doctor!"

They, by the way, are the ones that you don't need to address anyway since they already go to the proper doctor - and they don't do so because they are more enlightened!
You can probably find a few wealthy, educated Africans, who also go see a witch doctor, but I really wouldn't worry about them - much the same way I didn't really worry too much about Steve Jobs ....

Why are many people in developing countries poor?

Can you quote where I said we should only focus on the rich? You seem to be in some kind of bizarre world where addressing something means that should be done to the exclusion of all other possible things.

Your argument is that we should simply let the poor uneducated Africans be taken advantage of because they are too poor and uneducated to know any better?

Should we not tell poor people in developed countries that heroin is bad for them unless we can offer them employment, and happy rewarding lives too?

Education never hurts. The truth is always more useful than a lie.

 

[Hazel]

Art.


Both religion and the arts have endured for thousands of years because they organize cooperative behavior in humans, and are therefore advantageous. Certain religious organizations however teach us prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and division. Art by itself is a means by which people from very different backgrounds, having different points of view, can come together and share the deepest human experiences. Art and religion often overlap, and much great art has come out of religion, which is why I don't actually advocate replacing religion so much as pushing it more in the direction of creativity and inclusiveness.

Religion - well, Christian religion - was deeply engrossed in art 1500 +/- years ago and it didn't seem to do anything to improve the religion.

 

[dann]

Can you quote where I said we should only focus on the rich? You seem to be in some kind of bizarre world where addressing something means that should be done to the exclusion of all other possible things.

What is it about the words rephrase, intention and consequence that you don't understand?

Your argument is that we should simply let the poor uneducated Africans be taken advantage of because they are too poor and uneducated to know any better?

Yes, of course! When I point out to you that access to proper health care is a prerequisite for abolishing the belief in witchcraft, it can only be interpreted as meaning that I recommend that "poor uneducated Africans be taken advantage of".

Should we not tell poor people in developed countries that heroin is bad for them unless we can offer them employment, and happy rewarding lives too?

"Employment, and happy rewarding lives." Brillant! You do seem to have an inkling of a clue that addicts don't usually resort to heroin because they confuse it with vitamins! There's hope for you yet!

Education never hurts.

I'm sure that my students would inform you otherwise!

The truth is always more useful than a lie.

Always?! I just can't put up with fundamentalism! Does my arse look big in these pants, honey?

 

[catsmate]

Science fiction.

 

[jakesteele]

Replace it for what purposes?

Cosmology: Science
Origin Stories: Science
Morality: Humanism - "Be excellent to one another"
Emotional support: Family and friends
Social Cohesion: Any group affiliation, even internet message boards
Reason to oppress or kill someone else because they are different: Nationalism, Racism, politics
Pretending that there is life after death: Sorry, you're on your own if self delusion is your thing

I'm not sure what other functions religion serves.

Science is all about acquiring knowledge and religion is all about Man's search for meaning in the universe, both of which seem to be very important to mankind.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Science is all about acquiring knowledge and religion is all about Man's search for meaning in the universe, both of which seem to be very important to mankind.

Religion took the ephemeral, unprovable one because they knew there was nothing to their claims at some fundamental level.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

What is it about the words rephrase, intention and consequence that you don't understand?

The part where they include twisting the words till they make no sense.

Yes, of course! When I point out to you that access to proper health care is a prerequisite for abolishing the belief in witchcraft, it can only be interpreted as meaning that I recommend that "poor uneducated Africans be taken advantage of".

Well that word prerequisite is where you've gone wrong. It's entirely possible for people with no access to healthcare to not resort to witchcraft. I'm sure there are plenty examples in the US.

What you are arguing is that these people need their comfort blanket because they just can't cope with the reality. Its insulting and patronising.

"Employment, and happy rewarding lives." Brillant! You do seem to have an inkling of a clue that addicts don't usually resort to heroin because they confuse it with vitamins! There's hope for you yet!

But we shouldn't educate them about the risks of addiction of the reality of heroin abuse right? We wouldn't want to spoil the illusion that its a good way to escape, right?

Always?! I just can't put up with fundamentalism! Does my arse look big in these pants, honey?

Yes, always. Avoiding reality is not useful. It might make you feel better for a while, but ignoring things doesn't make them go away. Ignorance is not bliss. Promoting ignorance for poor Africans is not clever or helpful.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Religion - well, Christian religion - was deeply engrossed in art 1500 +/- years ago and it didn't seem to do anything to improve the religion.

Perhaps, though I care more about whether or not art can improve the world as a whole, rather than the effect it has on a single religion. Any time you spend creating new things is time you don't spend oppressing, destroying, or silencing others.

~~~~~~~~

As for a definition of art, the dictionary definition is the expression or application of human creativity and imagination. I would say that any form of creative expression or invention could be considered art. After that, we can certainly debate whether it's good or bad, effective or ineffective, beautiful or ugly. However, I wouldn't want to narrow the definition down to only encompass my personal tastes.

 

[deaman]

A life based on principles you feel are important to your conscience.

Perhaps principles like: Love, Tolerance, Kindness, Honesty, Responsibility, Care, Understanding, Patience, etc......

 

[Humes fork]

Science is all about acquiring knowledge and religion is all about Man's search for meaning in the universe, both of which seem to be very important to mankind.

Do you mind sharing some of the discoveries religion has made about meaning in the universe?

 

[dann]

What is it about the words rephrase, intention and consequence that you don't understand?

The part where they include twisting the words till they make no sense.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with these words. Get a dictionary.

Yes, of course! When I point out to you that access to proper health care is a prerequisite for abolishing the belief in witchcraft, it can only be interpreted as meaning that I recommend that "poor uneducated Africans be taken advantage of".

Well that word prerequisite is where you've gone wrong. It's entirely possible for people with no access to healthcare to not resort to witchcraft. I'm sure there are plenty examples in the US.

Yes, indeed, that is possible! Even the poorest of Africans are free to die a skeptical, witchcraft-free death! Hallelujah!

What you are arguing is that these people need their comfort blanket because they just can't cope with the reality. Its insulting and patronising.

I'm sure that you would be willing to die a brave, skeptical death, bereft of health care. And in the case of the poverty-stricken Africans, I guess that you would consider it mission accomplished if only they'd die without their degrading "comfort blanket", right?

"Employment, and happy rewarding lives." Brillant! You do seem to have an inkling of a clue that addicts don't usually resort to heroin because they confuse it with vitamins! There's hope for you yet!

But we shouldn't educate them about the risks of addiction of the reality of heroin abuse right? We wouldn't want to spoil the illusion that its a good way to escape, right?

And what drives people to become heroin addicts today is the prevalent "illusion that its a good way to escape," right?

Always?! I just can't put up with fundamentalism! Does my arse look big in these pants, honey?/i]

Yes, always. Avoiding reality is not useful. It might make you feel better for a while, but ignoring things doesn't make them go away.

Well, ignoring the big arse may not make it go away, but it's my preferred treatment for a lot of maladies. The common cold, for instance, and certain members of this forum whom the ignore button makes med blissfully unaware of!

Ignorance is not bliss. Promoting ignorance for poor Africans is not clever or helpful.

I, for one, never claimed that it was, but promoting the knowledge of proper health care to those who can't afford it only helps them die enlightened, doesn't it?
(By the way, where did you get your SOHB?)

 

[dann]

Science is all about acquiring knowledge and religion is all about Man's search for meaning in the universe, both of which seem to be very important to mankind.

Do you mind sharing some of the discoveries religion has made about meaning in the universe?

Wrong preposition! He probably means beyond and not in the universe.

 

[asydhouse]

Asydhouse, please tell me how you manage to highlight a line. Thanks.

Hit the quote button (down in the lower righthand side of the text box containing the post you want to reply to, which puts the text of the post you are replying to in a quote box... which you obviously already know how to do, duh!)
and then look at the selection of icons along the top of the text box you will be typing your reply into: just a little to the left of the right end of the displayed choices, you'll see a yellow hilighted word "hilite".

Simply select the part of the text in the quote box that you want to hilite (by clicking and dragging your pointer over that selection of the text) and then click that "hilite" icon above the text box. That inserts the codes before and after the selected section of text. When you hit "preview post" or "submit reply", you will then see your selected text hilighted in yellow.