Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

I really like the lamp as the thing that sparks the whole thing. Great. But a proper theory has to integrate all the evidence. You can't arbitrarily chuck things out. Take a leaf out of Massei's book. Mind you, he left out the lamp!

Massei left out a lot of things, actually. The 'mixed blood hypothesis,' he dismissed the contention that Raffaele called the carabinieri after the postal police arrived in a parenthetical aside after the prosecution made a big production out of it and Kokomeni doesn't make the cut either.

Don't get me going.

Massei also left out the part about Meredith and Amanda having a bad relationship. In fact, after hearing all the testimony that Mignini called the British women back for, Massei still concluded that things were within the realm of norm.

Massei also left out the part about finding forensics pointing to Knox in the murder room. He made mention of "Knox's biological material found mixed with Meredith's blood" elsewhere, but when you see the SP film of the way the samples were collected, the mixing was mainly on the SP's swab as it made broad sweeps of surfaces. But Massei finds nothing in the murder room.

Massei also left out the part where Knox and Guede planned the attack, Massei is of the opinion that the two had perhaps two chance meetings in large groups of people, and that Raffaele had never even been in that same room as Guede.... that is, (Massei still found the two guilty so it must be said) until the night of the murder.

Massei also left out the part about a psychopathology in Knox and Sollecito which would help explain why two normal kids would behave so badly in Mignini's world. One would expect SOME psychopathology in knife wielding, lesson teaching, sex-game gone wrong, Satanic rite students! Massei goes out of his way to say they are normal, who he says, "made a choice for evil".

Massei also left out any talk of a motive for Knox and Sollecito, reserving motive for Guede.

Massei also left out "all the lies" that Knox was supposed to have told, and "Knox kept changing her story" that the tabloids in the early days feasted on.

Massei also left out the part where it was deemed impossible for Rudy to have made the climb into Filomena's window. Instead, Massei focusses on what (for Massei) had to have been a lucky set of circumstances (shutters not locked, etc.) and that Rudy would be unlikely to do it three times. The fact that Massei talks about "three times" implies that he thinks it eminently possible for Rudy to theoretically do the climb!

Whereas Massei finds all sorts of other things pointing to guilt "plausible", for some when when pointing to innocence, all of a sudden Massei rejects the inherent "plausibility" that Rudy could have gone up to Filomena's window three times.

Massei also deals with the issue of a clean-up. Strangely, he simply makes no mention of one in the murder room (when combined with a lack of Knox's presence there, draw your own conclusion). Massei only says that a clean up must have happened, not that it did but that it had to have been done, otherwise he's at a loss to explain why the bathmat footprint is there with no intervening prints - in the hall!.

Massei also forgot to say that it had to have been multiple attackers. In fact, the only reason he finds-for multiple attackers is that he convicted Knox and Sollecito. Otherwise, Massei's report seems fine with the alternate idea of a single attacker.

I told you not to get me going.

 

[Grinder]

The discussion above should help to explain why it is difficult to state with any precision how long ingesta remains in the stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Nonetheless, there have been many studies on GI transit, and the table below presents rough estimates for transit times in healthy humans following ingestion of a standard meal (i.e. solid, mixed foods).

50% of stomach contents emptied 2.5 to 3 hours
Total emptying of the stomach 4 to 5 hours
50% emptying of the small intestine 2.5 to 3 hours
Transit through the colon 30 to 40 hours


I don't believe that duodenum data can pin down TOD to the minute but the number above of 50% stomach emptying within 3 hours makes a strong case that some chyme should be there by 9:30 at the latest. But give an extra 1/2 hour and combine that with the phone activity and I don't see why the PGP can't see they need to give up the 11 to 11:30 time frame.

Just give up the ear witnesses and Curatolo, move on from there. She had alcohol in her system and the meal was a slow digestive type but why not accept 9:45 to 10 pm?

 

[Mary_H]

Over there they are freaking out over BF's latest Groundreport story and are trying to ban him from the sight. I'm not a big fan of his but I find his last story about Vogt to be one of his best and strongly believe that freedom to publish is an important right.

PQ is threatening again with the Mignini lawsuit is coming and he knows this from what "our lawyers are hearing". He is now asking his nutters to contact NYC government because the founder of Groundreport now works there. He is threatening her with lawsuits coming because she is responsible for her site.

This is just another variant of going after people at their jobs for the most peripheral connection to anything supportive of the kids. He is particularly miffed that Google doesn't pick the PG sites and they do pick up GR.

I wish a mainstream reporter would do a story on the reporting of this case. Imagine what people would think if they knew that Vogt used Nikki a fashion house receptionist as a DNA expert.

Here is a little something about PQ's "lawyers," from two years ago:

NYC “Super-Lawyer” Offers Services to GroundReport

by Ground Report for GroundReport Community June 23, 2011

We are pleased to announce that after our request two weeks ago for a volunteer attorney; one of the most prominent lawyers in New York City has stepped forward and offered pro bono counsel for GroundReport. He began his work this week and did discovery on a First Amendment issue involving one of GR’s citizen journalists who was challenging a powerful advocacy group regarding a controversial topic in the news. The attorney resolved the issue with a few phone calls to the ‘opposing’ counsel. The issue was resolved in GR’s favor due to the “plaintiff’s” misrepresentation of his relationship with the ‘opposing’ counsel. We are thrilled to have this resource available to us on matters of First Amendment rights and now have a person who can defend our reporters from harassment and attempts to silence their voices.

http://www.groundreport.com/Media_and_Tech/NYC-Super-Lawyer-Offers-Services-to-GroundReport/2939757

Can you imagine being the "opposing counsel" who received that phone call? "Peter who? Never heard of him!"

 

[Bill Williams]

Here is a little something about PQ's "lawyers," from two years ago:

NYC “Super-Lawyer” Offers Services to GroundReport

by Ground Report for GroundReport Community June 23, 2011

We are pleased to announce that after our request two weeks ago for a volunteer attorney; one of the most prominent lawyers in New York City has stepped forward and offered pro bono counsel for GroundReport. He began his work this week and did discovery on a First Amendment issue involving one of GR’s citizen journalists who was challenging a powerful advocacy group regarding a controversial topic in the news. The attorney resolved the issue with a few phone calls to the ‘opposing’ counsel. The issue was resolved in GR’s favor due to the “plaintiff’s” misrepresentation of his relationship with the ‘opposing’ counsel. We are thrilled to have this resource available to us on matters of First Amendment rights and now have a person who can defend our reporters from harassment and attempts to silence their voices.

Can you imagine being the "opposing counsel" who received that phone call? "Peter who? Never heard of him!"

How many times does Peter Quennell need to be caught like this before people see him for what he is? Oooops. Most do.

 

[Dan O.]

I too think that the gals simply locked the front door from the inside and then took their key with them. I also think that they then left their keys in their room doors. It simply is a really convenient place to put it. And again, we don't know the exact type of cylinder that is in the front doors lock, it may be one that allows keys to be used on both sides, or not.

What is certain is that no one would need to test out several keys on MK's keyring to find out which of them locks her room door: It would be a completely different key (a skelleton key), it would stand out from the others.

One piece you may be missing is that Meredith would have had 2 sets of keys. The second set were to her boyfriends appartment downstairs. One early news report indicated that this set was two keys connected by a ring. But then the same article said those keys were found in Amanda's room.

There were two keys in Amanda's room. One hanging above her bed and the other in the inside lock to her room. The two key story never made it into the court room.

 

[Grinder]

Bruce was able to get his article on Vogt back up.

I think favorite quotes from her sterling coverage are in order. Here's one of mine: But Laura Wray, an American molecular biologist living in Milan, Italy, who works regularly with DNA samples, said she believes many of the defense claims of contamination or poor match are "groundless."

Concerns about contamination aside, investigators have definitively matched DNA found on the bra clasp to Sollecito, said Wray, who has followed the case closely. However, Wray said the alleged murder weapon evidence is weakened by the fact that there wasn't enough DNA recovered from the knife to run a second set of tests. This may be a key point for the Knox defense.

Hard to find any peer reviewed article by Ms. Wray - perhaps that's because she works at a fashion house or at least used to.

As I said before, not a big fan of Bruce but this is his best article -

 

[Grinder]

Anglo guess who said this: He further specified that the three or four hours needed for digestion and for the stomach to empty should be understood as beginning to take effect, so to speak, when eating begins

Remember when TM and other PGP were arguing that the clock starts when the eating stops?

The only ILE person that the PGP criticize is Lalli. Not a clue for you Anglo.

 

[anglolawyer]

Anglo guess who said this: He further specified that the three or four hours needed for digestion and for the stomach to empty should be understood as beginning to take effect, so to speak, when eating begins

Remember when TM and other PGP were arguing that the clock starts when the eating stops?

The only ILE person that the PGP criticize is Lalli. Not a clue for you Anglo.

It's three in the morning in Amsterdam and I've had a few. No way I'm doing quizzes. Oh, alright - Massei? I give up.

 

[Matthew Best]

As I said before, not a big fan of Bruce but this is his best article -

Link doesn't work.

 

[Bill Williams]

Link doesn't work.

The anti-Knox hater PR campaign is on the troll. It seems they are not satisied with simply banning folks from their own websites... Peter Quennelll on his page outlined the program by which they will flood other third party websites to "get" Bruce Fisher.

I guess this is how PR campaigns work.

 

[Grinder]

It's three in the morning in Amsterdam and I've had a few. No way I'm doing quizzes. Oh, alright - Massei? I give up.

At the hearing of September 19, 2009 the experts appointed by the judge (GIP) at the sitting of the preliminary hearing were heard: Professor Anna Aprile. Professor Mario Cingolani, Professor Giancarlo Umani Ronchi.

Court appointed expert.

 

[Grinder]

Perhaps the 3YLS should explain to her flock the difference between libel and slander. Apparently the moderator of barren mind and PQ think they have been slandered by BF's articles.

 

[Rolfe]

In what jurisdiction are you speaking? These terms mean different things different places.

Rolfe.

 

[Grinder]

In what jurisdiction are you speaking? These terms mean different things different places.

Rolfe.

Really? Where is slander a written defamation?

The article was published on a US based internet site and the "slander" was against Seattle and NJ based site moderators. There was also slander against Vogt and the Italian ILE.

slander n. oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.

 

[Rolfe]

I just said things are different other places. I know in Scotland there's no such thing as slander, it's all "defamation" however you do it. And "libel" means the details of the charge against the accused or something like that.

So if what she said was wrong for the jurisdiction she was referring to, fair enough, but it's not as if the terminology is universal.

Rolfe.

 

[Supernaut]

Anglo guess who said this: He further specified that the three or four hours needed for digestion and for the stomach to empty should be understood as beginning to take effect, so to speak, when eating begins

Remember when TM and other PGP were arguing that the clock starts when the eating stops?

The only ILE person that the PGP criticize is Lalli. Not a clue for you Anglo.

Mignini prevented Lalli from taking a vital body core-temperature at the scene - Lalli was finally able to so some 12 hours later, sometime after midnight on the 3rd of Nov.

Mignini then dismissed Lalli when he revealed that the stomach/duodenum contents could ascertain a latest time for TOD (which, together with the fact that it was no earlier than 21.00, gave a quite precise datum).

It looks to all the world as if Mignini preferred to have time-of-death left as vague as possible.

But why would he want that?

 

[Grinder]

I just said things are different other places. I know in Scotland there's no such thing as slander, it's all "defamation" however you do it. And "libel" means the details of the charge against the accused or something like that.

So if what she said was wrong for the jurisdiction she was referring to, fair enough, but it's not as if the terminology is universal.

Rolfe.

It may be the case that in Scotland slander and libel are treated as defamation, but that doesn't mean that the words don't retain their meanings. 3YLS likes to lord it over anyone here that expresses an opinion involving the law. She, however, doesn't seem to know the difference between the two words.

 

[Antony]

Motivation report in sight

The due date for the motivation report for the March 26th Supreme Court ruling is Monday next week, June 24th. Do Italian courts have the habit of releasing such reports always on the actual due date, or is there any prospect of it coming out early?

No doubt the regular news reports will cover the substance of it, but are those with a knowledge of Italian (at JREF and presumably PMF) able to say how long it will take to translate in full?

 

[Dan O.]

If you look up "procrastination" in a legal dictionary it will reffer you to the Italian legal process.

 

[Dan O.]

Just reviewing some old cached news clips and noticed this. While the Italian authorities are taking every opportunity to vilify their three suspects, the Mirror reporter talks to Meredith's boyfriend downstairs (published Nov 10, 2007):

Last night Meredith's Italian boyfriend spoke of his love for her. Giacomo Silenzi, 22, said: "Meredith was a very sweet and decent girl.

"She and Amanda were like best friends. I can't believe she'd take drugs or partake in any orgies."