Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

And many people do exactly that.

Careful. Again, there are two common types of locks used here. One that requires a cylinder, and one that does not.

Thanks once more. What two outer doors are you referring to? Do you mean the gate? Or do you mean the door to Amanda's and Meredith's part of the house?

You are saying that the bedroom doors use a large key, what we here would call a skeleton key?

 

[Grinder]

Over there they are freaking out over BF's latest Groundreport story and are trying to ban him from the sight. I'm not a big fan of his but I find his last story about Vogt to be one of his best and strongly believe that freedom to publish is an important right.

PQ is threatening again with the Mignini lawsuit is coming and he knows this from what "our lawyers are hearing". He is now asking his nutters to contact NYC government because the founder of Groundreport now works there. He is threatening her with lawsuits coming because she is responsible for her site.

This is just another variant of going after people at their jobs for the most peripheral connection to anything supportive of the kids. He is particularly miffed that Google doesn't pick the PG sites and they do pick up GR.

I wish a mainstream reporter would do a story on the reporting of this case. Imagine what people would think if they knew that Vogt used Nikki a fashion house receptionist as a DNA expert.

 

[Christian Klippel]

Thanks once more. What two outer doors are you referring to? Do you mean the gate? Or do you mean the door to Amanda's and Meredith's part of the house?

You are saying that the bedroom doors use a large key, what we here would call a skeleton key?

Sorry, i was under the impression that the door with the jammed upper bolt was some kind of second door, and that the upper and lower floor of the cottage were separated. That would have usually meant one common outer door into the house, then a second door each on for the upper and lower floor "flats", and then regular doors inside these flats. I was mistaken, seems there is only one common outside door, whose cylinder we have seen in the image-snippet that Dan O. posted.

So it would very likely be only two keys on the keyring, one for the outer door for the cylinder, and one for the normal lock of the room door.

Here you see what i mean with the "Buntbart-Schlüssel" which are used for inside doors, and from the images i can see that Merediths door used such a lock: (Attention, large image):

http://www.c-oldorf.de/images/Schluessel/Zimmertuerschluessel/Zimmertuerschluessel%201%20Schlosserei%20Oldorf.jpg

There you can also see the various profiles these keys can have.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[RandyN]

Sorry, i was under the impression that the door with the jammed upper bolt was some kind of second door, and that the upper and lower floor of the cottage were separated. That would have usually meant one common outer door into the house, then a second door each on for the upper and lower floor "flats", and then regular doors inside these flats. I was mistaken, seems there is only one common outside door, whose cylinder we have seen in the image-snippet that Dan O. posted.

So it would very likely be only two keys on the keyring, one for the outer door for the cylinder, and one for the normal lock of the room door.

Here you see what i mean with the "Buntbart-Schlüssel" which are used for inside doors, and from the images i can see that Merediths door used such a lock: (Attention, large image):

http://www.c-oldorf.de/images/Schluessel/Zimmertuerschluessel/Zimmertuerschluessel%201%20Schlosserei%20Oldorf.jpg

There you can also see the various profiles these keys can have.

Greetings,

Chris

Yes these are skeleton keys popular here in the early 1900's. Often just for inside doors. They have fallen out of favor I suppose since it is harder to duplicate a key.

If I understand you though ...yes it is possible to lock your children (or anyone for that matter) inside your home and without a key they could not open this door.

As for MK leaving the key in the door. I suppose it is possible but it would have to be a lock that allows another key from the outside since she did not live alone. I wonder with 4 living together if they all just took their own keys out after locking themselves inside.

You could be correct about the 3 keys as there was a metal security gate that also locked. Not sure if it was keyed the same as the door. Another code violation and safety risk is having only one door to the outside. We require at least two and they must have steps...so the balcony door would not count since it had no steps...

I think Guede simply found MK keys when he was rummaging thru her purse looking for money. His friends claim that he would often steal women purses from the discos...so it fits his MO.

 

[RWVBWL]

Let's open the knife handle, PLEASE!

I'd like to get to the "the truth",
if ya know what I mean, about what happened the night Miss Meredith Kercher
was murdered and then raped by Rudy Guede.
Wouldn't you?


If there is going to be a "new" trial,
can we hope that the knife handle is opened and checked for DNA?

As this photo shows,



courtesy of the .netters,
there musta been a lot of Mez's blood on the handle area to leave that imprint on her bed sheet,
correct?

I'm just a surfer from Los Angeles,
but lookin' at this photo, I can easily see why The Guede-o,
Rudy Guede, was only seeing RED as he danced the night away at The Domus NightClub,
after he left Meredith Kercher to die, all alone,
a horrible, horrible death...

Look at the photo of that imprint!
There is more blood where the handle meets the blade than at the knife tip.

How friggin' horrible!

That knife
must have been thrust all the way into Meredith's throat!

A lot of Mez's blood must have got on the hand of the guy who shoved that knife into Merdith's throat.
Surely he had to clean himslef up afterwards...

And some of Mez's blood, even a tiny, tiny bit,
must have definitly seeped under the handle area,
right?

From what I recall,
The DEFENSE wanted that knife handle opened up+tested.

BUT the prosecution DID NOT!

Surely NOW,
with Raff+Amanda SET FREE,
the prosecution wants that knife handle opened up and tested,
surely so, surely so, right?

 

[Prometheus]

The prosecution doesn't want the knife handle opened because they know full well that the knife they have is not the murder weapon.

 

[RWVBWL]

More on The Knife!:

Here's a photo of the supposed knife
that was found to have Mez's DNA in a tiny spot on the blade,
ya know, this, the killing blade:




For some reason,
maybe it's because I am on a Forum for Skeptic's,
I just DO NOT see the bloody handle of the knife that lay imprinted on Meredith Kerchers sheet,
being a match.
Do YOU?

I gotsta wonder,
why isn't the bottom 1/3 of the knife handle
present in that bloody outline?
Weird.


You do know, don'tcha,
that this knife imprint was right next to Meredith's purse,
which was then robbed.
See marker letter "O" in the photo below:




Strangely,
for some reason ONLY Rudy Guede left his ID there on Meredith's purse,
next to that bloody knife imprint.
Weird, huh?

Amanda Knox did not.
Nor did Raff Sollecito..
Hmmmm...


To The pro-Guilter's out there:
I know that ya believe "Foxy Knoxy" took that knife and stabbed Mez in her throat.
So you must then believe that it was Miss Knox that sat down+placed a bloody knife on Meredith's bedsheet near her purse,
correct?

What was she doin'? Lookin' for Meredith's keys+credit cards?

Or smokin' a fatty and watchin' Guede-o rape Mez as she lay dyin' in a pool of her own blood?
Why ain't there no fingerprints, palmprints, DNA or even a shoeprint of Amanda in Mez's room?


For some reason,
I just find it extremely odd that multiple examples of DNA, fingerprints, palmprints,+ heck, even shoe prints of Rudy Guede,
AKA The Guede-o, were found in Meredith Kerecher's bedroom after she was knifed to death.
Guede-o did not live there.
He had never been inside the girls apartment, err, flat!

What was Rudy Guede doing there?
Bein' on a "date" with Meredith?
He didn't even call to say hey+confirm I'll meet ya at 9;00,
nor bring chocolates, a coupla flowers, beer, wine, a fatty, a movie,
or even condoms to this date.
Sure, he's on a "date".
A "date" from hell!


Don't get me started on that possible semen stain.
Which, by the way, I feel should still be tested.
Don'tcha agree?

 

[Grinder]

Over at the other side they continue to analyze book sales and revel in the low number of books sold. While they doubted the $4 million, they totally believe the 750,000 first printing. They forget the markup the retailer makes but whatever.

Now there a picture of Waiting To Be Heard supposedly on the shelf as found by the PG person, but look at the back cover, The top of it is yellow but not on the next book back. Methinks they moved one book to produce this shot.

 

[RWVBWL]

The BEST Pro-Guilt Theory I have ever read!

Here's The Story:

Amanda, Raffaele and Rudi planned to attack Meredith on October 31.
Meredith, so pure, so innocent, was the perfect victim for Amanda, a woman --as her biography suggests-- of great perversion, who certainly needed something more exciting that making love with her boyfriend, smoking a joint, watching a chick's movie and reading Harry Potter.
Amanda was the source, the mind of everything. She easily took advantage of the shy and inexperienced Raffaele who, completely seduced, was ready to do anything for her. The quiet boy had, indeed, a violent side inside if is true that he liked knives so much, he was reading Manga, he saw a bestiality movie, he was practicing kickboxing, praising the monster of Foligno, etc.

They maybe tried on the 31st, but something went wrong, Meredith didn't come home. So they went to realize the game next evening. They went with Raffaele's car, maybe the plan was to bring Meredith somewhere, some mystical place like the Tempietto or the villa of the Cardinal.

They were too high with drugs and alcohol. The active principle in the drugs is not the same as in the 60s or in the 70s, it becomes stronger and stronger. And drugs plus alcohol can certainly stimulate aggression, it can bring you to lose control.
Meredith would have fought the aggressors, her family says, and indeed she did. But against three people and one or two blades there was nothing she could do.

While Rudi was raping her she managed to have her mouth free and she screamed. Amanda, who was holding the knife, pushed it inside.
They ran away but, while Rudi went into town to try give himself a quasi-alibi, the lovebirds remained in the area.

They stood hidden in the dark, watching the house from a secure distance and position. And noticed that nothing happened. When they were sure that no one had heard the scream they returned to the crime scene. Classical.
They found Meredith dead. They decided to stage a burglary.
They staged the break-in in Filomena's room. Raffaele stripped the bra away to give the idea of a violent action (because the bra is stripped, not cut) made by one person. They covered Meredith and started canceling their own traces, picking up all their hair with the help of the light of the two lamps. At one point they cleaned up their own traces also in Amanda's room and in the rest of the house.

When the cleaning job was over, at about 5 0'clock, they locked the room and tossed Meredith's keys. They returned to Raffaele's place, cleaned the knife with bleach and put it back into the drawer.

They relaxed themselves with some music and slept a little bit.
But Amanda was too worried about her traces and wanted to go to the house. While on her way she realized she'd need something for cleaning and waited for the store to open. So she maybe went to do some more cleaning, then she went back to Raffaele.

They maybe decided the strategy: when to make the calls to Meredith, aimed to prove that Amanda had been looking for her. When to give the alarm.

So they went back to the house to discover a strange situation and called Meredith and Filomena. But then Amanda realized that her lamp wasn't in her room and told Raffaele.
So they realized they had left it in Meredith's room. Maybe they fought about the lamp, maybe they accused each other to have left it there or to have tossed the key so early. Panicking they tried the other keys but they wouldn't work. So they tried to break the door. But, while doing that, they remembered the strategy: the others had to find the body not them. So they waived the door-braking and had another idea. Trying to enter from the window. They went out, they tried to climb, but they didn't manage. While they were in the garden, returning into the house to perform the first option, the Postal Police surprised them.

The others arrived and while they were breaking the door Amanda and Raffaele were aside, trying to make up an excuse for the lamp and, in general, fixing the details of their version.

When they came to tell them that Meredith was found dead, Amanda cried, she's good at acting.

Perfect acting. Just, while waiting to be interrogated at the police station the tension was mounting for Amanda and that's why she started to act crazy. All other times that she was facing something difficult, indeed, she would act crazy.
_________________________________________________________________


But it was written many years ago by a former Pro-Guilt Believer,
a dude who, (unlike I nor you), went to soooo many of the days of the original trial,
a dude who also used to befriend Peggy+Mikey,
a dude who came to believe in "The Love Birds" innocense...

A dude who became the greatest spokesman
against what he surely must have known
was gonna be a tragically wrong, unjust conviction,
happening right in front of his very own eyes,
in his very own, modern country...

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015...11/hardest-moment-for-knox-and-sollecito.html

 

[anglolawyer]

RWVBWL

I can't access the link (you have to be over 18). Who was it? I am sure I read a better one in the form of a long post right here on one of the continuation threads. Here it is.

I wonder how the author feels about it now?

 

[Grinder]

RWVBWL

I can't access the link (you have to be over 18). Who was it? I am sure I read a better one in the form of a long post right here on one of the continuation threads. Here it is.

I wonder how the author feels about it now?

Frank

 

[anglolawyer]

Over at the other side they continue to analyze book sales and revel in the low number of books sold. While they doubted the $4 million, they totally believe the 750,000 first printing. They forget the markup the retailer makes but whatever.

Now there a picture of Waiting To Be Heard supposedly on the shelf as found by the PG person, but look at the back cover, The top of it is yellow but not on the next book back. Methinks they moved one book to produce this shot.

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/6X12ZDC.jpg[/qimg]

They moved more than one. Look at the two underneath.

 

[RWVBWL]

Over at the other side they continue to analyze book sales,
<snip>
Now there a picture of Waiting To Be Heard supposedly on the shelf as found by the PG person, but look at the back cover, The top of it is yellow but not on the next book back. Methinks they moved one book to produce this shot.

Are not books placed in alphabetical order?

Surely then this photograph is staged,
those books were placed to portray Miss Knox in bad lighting...

 

[Kaosium]

RWVBWL

I can't access the link (you have to be over 18). Who was it? I am sure I read a better one in the form of a long post right here on one of the continuation threads. Here it is.

I wonder how the author feels about it now?

LOL!

That reminds me of something I came across peeking down the bunnyhole recently. It appears the Dormouse (ST) still doesn't understand what the argument regarding stomach contents and time of death amounts to. One last time, it's the fact we know both that Meredith was alive at 9:00 PM and that nothing had emptied from her stomach to her duodenum that makes stomach contents significant.

As the typical time for that to begin happening is around 80 minutes the fact that Meredith had eaten ~6:00-6:30 and was alive at ~9:00 PM tells us that Meredith was unusual in that regard, (perhaps due to the residue of alcohol still in her system) but that her going much longer than 2.5-3 hours would make her supernatural and a Gaussian curve can be plotted showing how the odds she was attacked later than 9:00 PM diminish with every minute as it becomes progressively unlikely something wouldn't have started to pass into her duodenum. By 10:00 it's virtually assured, and the ToD of 11:45 PM in the original trial was basically impossible.

 

[Bill Williams]

Over at the other side they continue to analyze book sales and revel in the low number of books sold. While they doubted the $4 million, they totally believe the 750,000 first printing. They forget the markup the retailer makes but whatever.

Now there a picture of Waiting To Be Heard supposedly on the shelf as found by the PG person, but look at the back cover, The top of it is yellow but not on the next book back. Methinks they moved one book to produce this shot.

http://i.imgur.com/6X12ZDC.jpg

They moved more than one. Look at the two underneath.

Please, please do not tell them that to HarperCollins there is no such thing as bad publicity.

If the guilters would just shut-up, publicity for the book would plummet!

 

[anglolawyer]

LOL!

That reminds me of something I came across peeking down the bunnyhole recently. It appears the Dormouse (ST) still doesn't understand what the argument regarding stomach contents and time of death amounts to. One last time, it's the fact we know both that Meredith was alive at 9:00 PM and that nothing had emptied from her stomach to her duodenum that makes stomach contents significant.

As the typical time for that to begin happening is around 80 minutes the fact that Meredith had eaten ~6:00-6:30 and was alive at ~9:00 PM tells us that Meredith was unusual in that regard, (perhaps due to the residue of alcohol still in her system) but that her going much longer than 2.5-3 hours would make her supernatural and a Gaussian curve can be plotted showing how the odds she was attacked later than 9:00 PM diminish with every minute as it becomes progressively unlikely something wouldn't have started to pass into her duodenum. By 10:00 it's virtually assured, and the ToD of 11:45 PM in the original trial was basically impossible.

I like the *********** lamp being at the heart of the theory but note that you basically ditched the knife. How could you do that? Maybe you could put Mach's fish dinner in there somewhere. Also, you seem to have bumped off Toto prematurely.

Yeah, TOD is a bummer for the PGPs, which is why they are tending to move the murder forward to agree with Hellman.

 

[Kaosium]

I like the *********** lamp being at the heart of the theory but note that you basically ditched the knife. How could you do that? Maybe you could put Mach's fish dinner in there somewhere. Also, you seem to have bumped off Toto prematurely.

Yeah, TOD is a bummer for the PGPs, which is why they are tending to move the murder forward to agree with Hellman.

The lamp, as pathetic as it is, is at least possibly involved in the murder. Note that I have it in Meredith's room already as I think it not unlikely she borrowed it as it was just a house fixture and Amanda wasn't using it staying at Raffaele's.

The knife definitely is not involved in the murder, the actual question there is how they generated an electropherogram with Meredith's DNA off a knife that obviously wasn't involved in the murder, not that the electropherogram presented overcomes all the falsifiers that preclude that knife being involved in the murder.

Curatolo didn't see anything regarding the murder, that's just silly. I was trying to keep it somewhat real, though when I wrote that I obviously forgot where the bra-clasp was originally found, so that part with Raffaele doesn't work.

Well, none of it actually works, it's just guilter fan-fic!

 

[Christian Klippel]

Yes these are skeleton keys popular here in the early 1900's. Often just for inside doors. They have fallen out of favor I suppose since it is harder to duplicate a key.

Alright, thanks! They are still very popular over here, and as said, mainly used for inside doors. As it is, we Europeans (and especially Germans) like to standardize stuff, so there is no problem getting these keys. Virtually every locksmith has them in stock, since there are only a fixed number of shapes/profiles.

If I understand you though ...yes it is possible to lock your children (or anyone for that matter) inside your home and without a key they could not open this door.

Yes, it is possible with most of the doors/locks. Just that most people simply do not lock themselves or others in, although it happens. But again, since we don't know what kind of lock was used in that door... There are locks that open without a key from the inside, by using the door handle. That way you can still lock the door with the cylinder, and still be able to exit in case of an emergency without a key. They are rare, but they exist.

As for MK leaving the key in the door. I suppose it is possible but it would have to be a lock that allows another key from the outside since she did not live alone. I wonder with 4 living together if they all just took their own keys out after locking themselves inside.

I too think that the gals simply locked the front door from the inside and then took their key with them. I also think that they then left rtheir keys in their room doors. It simply is a really convenient place to put it. And again, we don't know the exact type of cylinder that is in the front doors lock, it may be one that allows keys to be used on both sides, or not.

What is certain is that no one would need to test out several keys on MK's keyring to find out which of them locks her room door: It would be a completely different key (a skelleton key), it would stand out from the others.

You could be correct about the 3 keys as there was a metal security gate that also locked. Not sure if it was keyed the same as the door. Another code violation and safety risk is having only one door to the outside. We require at least two and they must have steps...so the balcony door would not count since it had no steps...

Yea, building codes wevolve over time. Of course i can speak only for Germany, but here, for houses that already exist before any new changes in the codes were introduced, there often is no need to "upgrade" them to comply with the new codes. They would only apply to houses built after these changes. Also, there is a difference between small homes, where usually only one family lives in the whole house, or houses that have multiple flats inside, rent to individual renters. The latter usually have emergency exits nowdays when built, old ones are sometimes upgraded.

I think Guede simply found MK keys when he was rummaging thru her purse looking for money. His friends claim that he would often steal women purses from the discos...so it fits his MO.

Quite likely, yes. Or the key was already in the door. Looking at the photos, i see that many inside doors there have their keys in, even (some of?) the girl's private rooms. So it may very well just already been in the door. Possible that their keyrings only have the keys for the outside door and gate anyways, and they left their room keys in their doors. Many ways are possible.

In any case, i can only repeat that he would have no problem to figure out which key would lock her door, since it would be a completely different type of key that just stands out.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[anglolawyer]

The lamp, as pathetic as it is, is at least possibly involved in the murder. Note that I have it in Meredith's room already as I think it not unlikely she borrowed it as it was just a house fixture and Amanda wasn't using it staying at Raffaele's.

The knife definitely is not involved in the murder, the actual question there is how they generated an electropherogram with Meredith's DNA off a knife that obviously wasn't involved in the murder, not that the electropherogram presented overcomes all the falsifiers that preclude that knife being involved in the murder.

Curatolo didn't see anything regarding the murder, that's just silly. I was trying to keep it somewhat real, though when I wrote that I obviously forgot where the bra-clasp was originally found, so that part with Raffaele doesn't work.

Well, none of it actually works, it's just guilter fan-fic!

I really like the lamp as the thing that sparks the whole thing. Great. But a proper theory has to integrate all the evidence. You can't arbitrarily chuck things out. Take a leaf out of Massei's book. Mind you, he left out the lamp!

 

[Kaosium]

I really like the lamp as the thing that sparks the whole thing. Great. But a proper theory has to integrate all the evidence. You can't arbitrarily chuck things out. Take a leaf out of Massei's book. Mind you, he left out the lamp!

Massei left out a lot of things, actually. The 'mixed blood hypothesis,' he dismissed the contention that Raffaele called the carabinieri after the postal police arrived in a parenthetical aside after the prosecution made a big production out of it and Kokomeni doesn't make the cut either.