Looking for Skeptics

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Alderbank said:
I mean that although the spirits are ready and willing, neither Chester nor Liverpool sceptics replied to requests to take part in this test
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It could be because we have nothing but a claim to hear voices. Debunking a confident dowser, with clear claims, makes for good publicity for the skeptic viewpoint.

"Voices in someone's head have been confirmed by science to be nothing but voices in someone's head" is not much of anything.

Still, I understand a word from them would have been appropriate...
 
Isn't it common, indeed protocol, for testees (of the JREF) to be given a free reign before the test begins, to test their voodoo, so-to-speak? I recall dowsers being told/shown where water is so they could tune their wands.

It helps to subtract the old post-hoc excuses about the day being wrong, the planets not aligned, the negatives vibes too intense. etc.

So, let her look at the cards and then confirm the spirits are on the same page.
 
flaccon said:
Any silence is not intentional. I am answering posts, answering the phone, speaking to spirits, and work out their ability with the card testing.

I have not disagreed to anything.

If I am in the wrong section, I am new to this. If you wish to have this thread removed, please go ahead, but please let me know should you decide that, as I'd like to print it off.
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Thank you for the reply.
 
I will suggest that the protocol need not be airtight. As mentioned by Donn, you can go along with her ideas, as long as you can easily document what is happening and move on to more rigorous experiments as you go along. I don't see why this shouldn't be casual and fun for everyone involved.
 
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Alderbank said:
Sorry, Mojo. I see now it does nothing to confirm whether spirits exist and have voices. I was too hasty in replying
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Unfortunately, flaccon has yet to make a testable claim for what the spirits can do. We have suggested many possibilities for what a claim might be and a corresponding test, but flaccon hasn't confirmed the spirits would do any of them.

The best we have gotten is an agreement to try it and see.

That is not advancing the process at all, and I do not believe flaccon understands why that is. She is firmly convinced she just needs to show off her stuff and we will all become true believers just like her. So far, her interest in any testing is just to expand her menagerie, not to discount pareidolia.
 
I like the simple card test.

Since it's unclear whether the spirits need to see the cards through someone's eyes or not, I think it would be worth experimenting both ways:

  • Alderbank shuffles the deck and draws a card.
  • He looks at it, but flaccon mustn't see it.
  • He places the card face down and waits while flaccon tries to receive the spirits message identifying which card it is.
  • flaccon writes down the name of the card given by the spirits, then Alderbank turns it over revealling either a hit or a miss.

You could repeat this a couple of times and then try again but this time Alderbank does not look at the card, just places it face down without anyone seeing it.

I think that's a good enough protocol for an initial test. Not watertight, but in the event of success it could be repeated more rigorously to definitely eliminate any unintended communication between the two parties.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I like the simple card test.

Since it's unclear whether the spirits need to see the cards through someone's eyes or not, I think it would be worth experimenting both ways:

  • Alderbank shuffles the deck and draws a card.
  • He looks at it, but flaccon mustn't see it.
  • He places the card face down and waits while flaccon tries to receive the spirits message identifying which card it is.
  • flaccon writes down the name of the card given by the spirits, then Alderbank turns it over revealling either a hit or a miss.

You could repeat this a couple of times and then try again but this time Alderbank does not look at the card, just places it face down without anyone seeing it.

I think that's a good enough protocol for an initial test. Not watertight, but in the event of success it could be repeated more rigorously to definitely eliminate any unintended communication between the two parties.
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Another possibility, if the spirits are thought to need someone to see the cards, is to have a third party in another room look at them.
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
I like the simple card test.

Since it's unclear whether the spirits need to see the cards through someone's eyes or not, I think it would be worth experimenting both ways:

  • Alderbank shuffles the deck and draws a card.
  • He looks at it, but flaccon mustn't see it.
  • He places the card face down and waits while flaccon tries to receive the spirits message identifying which card it is.
  • flaccon writes down the name of the card given by the spirits, then Alderbank turns it over revealling either a hit or a miss.

You could repeat this a couple of times and then try again but this time Alderbank does not look at the card, just places it face down without anyone seeing it.

I think that's a good enough protocol for an initial test. Not watertight, but in the event of success it could be repeated more rigorously to definitely eliminate any unintended communication between the two parties.
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This is fine, and at most two attempts each way would be sufficient. (I predict, though, the spirits will not cooperate. No message will be sent.)
 
Alderbank said:
I understand that we have been given the special finger but the rest defeats me too. I had no idea that a simple test would be so challenging.

I wholeheartedly agree with earlier suggestions that local sceptics could take part in a trial. However although the spirits now seem willing, it is ironic that sceptics in nearby Chester and Liverpool are elusive

I'm willing to try one last shot. I am still willing to visit flaccon and try to administer a test. However I will take my tablet and link with a seasoned forumite using Skype. You could guide what we say and do and I would be your hands and eyes (a bit like the spirits really).

Would anyone be willing to share in this way and mentor me? It would take time to set up and you should be aware that the event would probably take place between 6pm and 9pm BST.

Anyone up for it?
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Alderbank, the card test wont work. I purchased a deck before and placed a card face down on the table. Reply was "Tracey we can't do that" I don't know where to go from here with this one. They just can't do these sort of tricks, sorry.
 
So, what can they do that will objectively distinguish themselves from pareidolia?
 
marplots said:
I had to quit posting questions because I had a similar feeling. Not troll so much as different ideas and objectives. It seems to me that flaccon came here to show this wonderful thing she's been involved with, thinking it earthshaking and finally what the skeptics have been seeking.

And here we are asking all this tangential stuff, trying to fit the experience into boxes and analyzing it. One party is a poet describing a sunset. The other wants to understand, catalog and evaluate.

I just don't see it ending well.
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I am having a hard time deciding exactly where flaccon is coming from. I cannot rule out troll because there is no single post I can point to and say "a troll would never write that." Similarly, I cannot find any single post and say "a sincere believer would never write that." And of course, those are not the only two options available. I am, however, pretty certain that you are correct in not predicting a favorable outcome.

How many days went by discussing protocol details for a card test before flaccon came out with today's revelation:"The spirits don't do card tricks"?

It is way, way too early to ask flaccon questions about tests and protocols.
 
flaccon said:
Alderbank, the card test wont work. I purchased a deck before and placed a card face down on the table. Reply was "Tracey we can't do that" I don't know where to go from here with this one. They just can't do these sort of tricks, sorry.
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Not face-down on a table, then. Rather, prop the card up in a manner in which the face is visible, but not to you. Like, say, on a music stand, or an easel. Even some carefully arranged books should do the trick.
 
Maurice Ledifficile said:
I will suggest that the protocol need not be airtight. As mentioned by Donn, you can go along with her ideas, as long as you can easily document what is happening and move on to more rigorous experiments as you go along. I don't see why this shouldn't be casual and fun for everyone involved.
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I mentioned this at first. Introduction is necessary. I am new to testing spirits this way. Its evident that the card test is out, I tried it tonight. The only ability I've seen so far is, communication, conversation, art work, healing. The only testing I have done, is to see how they are getting through.
 
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