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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I can't remember, was the bra clasp found in Merediths room or near the mattress dragged into the kitchen?

The clasp was "rediscovered" in Meredith's room on the floor in front of her desk. Or, that is where thay want us to believe it was. The camera was distracted looking for where the footprints used to be at the foot of her bed and couldn't see what was going on behind the cameraman's back.
 
We don't. Any picture taken on Dec 18th is irrelevant to any picture taken beforehand.


Actually we do. Massei tells us that the cottage was sealed on the 6th of November and that suposedly the seal was intact when they entered in December. The photographs for the December visit are all time stamped and start with unsealing the door in the early afternoon and include the luminol images taken late that evening.
 
Good post

The door is open on the linked photo.

There was no visit my the defense and prosecution until the 18th IIRC.

Even Barbie say the defense was the reason they were convicted as the prosecution didn't present a case beyond a reasonable doubt.

The FOA PR supertanker pays us way more than .085 cents :p.

The Italian system being what it is may preclude the defense saying anything because they would be charged with defamation.

Much evidence could survive an unsealed cottage, but the bra clasp reappearing 47 days later with the only DNA linked to the crime of Raf's, make that open door significant.

It is amazing how every piece of so-called evidence is so tainted. The witnesses deny all the week of the crime but 9 months later can be specific to the minute in one case and in another recall the surface people were running on. The bra has Raf's DNA but was only collected the day after his shoes were proven not to have the ones that left the prints. The knife needs to have the test done beyond the limits of the machine.

The foot prints test negative for blood and don't match anyone's foot. The Luminol is applied so heavily that the technicians boots light up. The bloody bathroom turns out to have only a couple drops of blood. The bath mat print doesn't match anybody and the method used by the prosecution's footprint expert is the debunked grid system. Three or four computers have their hard drives fried.

Meredith's body temp is taken late and they mishandle her blood in such a way that the alcohol content is 5 times what it really was.

They leave behind her bloody clothes. They put evidence in wrapping paper that was from the cottage. They store evidence in the cottage's freezer.

What difference would a securely sealed cottage make anyway? They used dirty gloves, didn't change them enough, mixed blood with residue on the sink and stored crucial evidence in a way that it was destroyed.
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Good post Grinder!

They should write their own book.

How is this for a title?

How to investigate a murder, by Dummies, for Dummies

or how about this?

How to defend a murderer, lessons in Machiavellian prosecution techniques.
by the Perugian M&Ms
 
The bra has Raf's DNA but was only collected the day after his shoes were proven not to have the ones that left the prints.

Waiting To Be Heard (p245) has it slightly differently. According to that source, the police announced the bra clasp DNA result the day after Raffaele's family showed on television that the police had the footprint evidence wrong.

Since DNA tests can't usually be done in 24 hours, that makes it unlikely that the bra clasp was collected and analysed specifically in response to the footprint evidence being exploded, if WTBH has this point correct.

Can someone who knows where to look double-check the dates for when the Sollecitos broke the news about the shoeprint, and when Stefanoni made her second trip back to the murder house for convenient new evidence?
 
Waiting To Be Heard (p245) has it slightly differently. According to that source, the police announced the bra clasp DNA result the day after Raffaele's family showed on television that the police had the footprint evidence wrong.

Since DNA tests can't usually be done in 24 hours, that makes it unlikely that the bra clasp was collected and analysed specifically in response to the footprint evidence being exploded, if WTBH has this point correct.

Can someone who knows where to look double-check the dates for when the Sollecitos broke the news about the shoeprint, and when Stefanoni made her second trip back to the murder house for convenient new evidence?

In Honor Bound Raffaele gives the date of the TV show which aired his family's discovery of the Nike brand as 11 Jan 2008. The next day, the prosecution announced its bra clasp findings. I understand Stefanoni's second trip took place on 18 Dec 2007.

Raffaele does not give the date they found the Nikes they were looking for. It seems likely that the prosecution learned of their discovery from monitoring their telephones. If we knew the date we might be able to construct a CT.

ETA Using C-V as a source, the SAL records show DNA extraction for the clasp occurred on 29 Dec 2007. Quantification was on 03 Jan 2008. No date given for amplification. Don't expect me to explain it but the electrophoretic run for autosomal STR was carried out in Jun 2008. No date is given for amplification of the Y-haplo and the Y-haplo run is also dated in June. Go figure.
 
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-kercher-bra-clue-528941
Meredith Kercher bra clue
17 Dec 2007 00:00

Damning evidence against a suspect in student Meredith Kercher's murder has emerged.


Damning evidence against a suspect in student Meredith Kercher's murder has emerged after police revealed his DNA was found on her bra.

Forensic scientists found the DNA on the bra clasp matched that of Rudy Hermann Guede, 20.
Cops say the bra was "ripped off" and thrown into a corner of Meredith's bedroom at her flat in Perugia, Italy, where she was found with her throat cut seven weeks ago.
​
 
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2008-06-21:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...nce-in-meredith-kercher-case-115875-20615765/
Four bloody footprints are the key evidence in the Meredith Kercher murder case, it was claimed yesterday.
They were discovered by a forensic team outside her bedroom door at her flat.
The details emerged from a 10,000- page case file submitted by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini.
It claims the prints match those of Meredith's flatmate Amanda Knox and her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito.
The report concludes the pair along with another man, Rudy Guede, should be formally charged with murder and sexual violence.
​
 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meredith-kercher-bra-clue-528941
Meredith Kercher bra clue
17 Dec 2007 00:00

Damning evidence against a suspect in student Meredith Kercher's murder has emerged.


Damning evidence against a suspect in student Meredith Kercher's murder has emerged after police revealed his DNA was found on her bra.

Forensic scientists found the DNA on the bra clasp matched that of Rudy Hermann Guede, 20.
Cops say the bra was "ripped off" and thrown into a corner of Meredith's bedroom at her flat in Perugia, Italy, where she was found with her throat cut seven weeks ago.
​

:jaw-dropp

WTF! OMG. LOL. :confused: :boggled:
 
In Honor Bound Raffaele gives the date of the TV show which aired his family's discovery of the Nike brand as 11 Jan 2008. The next day, the prosecution announced its bra clasp findings. I understand Stefanoni's second trip took place on 18 Dec 2007.

Raffaele does not give the date they found the Nikes they were looking for. It seems likely that the prosecution learned of their discovery from monitoring their telephones. If we knew the date we might be able to construct a CT.

ETA Using C-V as a source, the SAL records show DNA extraction for the clasp occurred on 29 Dec 2007. Quantification was on 03 Jan 2008. No date given for amplification. Don't expect me to explain it but the electrophoretic run for autosomal STR was carried out in Jun 2008. No date is given for amplification of the Y-haplo and the Y-haplo run is also dated in June. Go figure.

I think it's safe to conclude that "the cops raided the house the day after it was revealed that the shoeprint was wrong" is that rare beast, a bit of unsupported PIP fanfic. They had the clasp in hand and carried out the tests long before the Sollecitos pulled the rug out from under the shoeprint.

However the timing of the police's revelation about the bra clasp DNA could plausibly have been provoked by that bit of bad news.

In the process of sorting out this point, we've discovered something interesting though. Why was Stefanoni doing two tests on the one item nearly six months apart?
 
I think it's safe to conclude that "the cops raided the house the day after it was revealed that the shoeprint was wrong" is that rare beast, a bit of unsupported PIP fanfic. They had the clasp in hand and carried out the tests long before the Sollecitos pulled the rug out from under the shoeprint.

However the timing of the police's revelation about the bra clasp DNA could plausibly have been provoked by that bit of bad news.

In the process of sorting out this point, we've discovered something interesting though. Why was Stefanoni doing two tests on the one item nearly six months apart?

Well, I don't understand these run dates at all. Why do a June run when you must already have done one in Jan (in order to be able to announce the great find)? And what do we make of Dan's time travel article of 17 Dec 2007?

I agree with you about the publcity angle.
 
:jaw-dropp

WTF! OMG. LOL. :confused: :boggled:

Clearly we can add time travel to Amanda Knox's devilish powers. She probably went back in time to clean her DNA and Rudy's off the clasp, but left Raffaele's DNA on there to frame him.

I realise this theory has some problems, but I feel it is true because Amanda Knox looked shifty this one time. No PIP theory explains Rudy's DNA vanishing from the bra clasp, so I think we're all on equal footing here and my theory is as good as anyone else's.
 
Clearly we can add time travel to Amanda Knox's devilish powers. She probably went back in time to clean her DNA and Rudy's off the clasp, but left Raffaele's DNA on there to frame him.

I realise this theory has some problems, but I feel it is true because Amanda Knox looked shifty this one time. No PIP theory explains Rudy's DNA vanishing from the bra clasp, so I think we're all on equal footing here and my theory is as good as anyone else's.

The putrefaction is exceeded only by the stupefaction. We're gonna have ter wait for Grinder to get off my yacht and come over and explain it.
 
I am disturbed by Dan's Mirror article. I checked Massei again:

Massei PDF p.224 said:
She explained that the bra clasp, when it was collected during the crime scene inspection carried out on December 18, 2007, was among the first things to be found, certainly before 20:30 pm.
How can the Mirror article have reported the discovery of DNA on the clasp, whether Guede's or anybody else's, the day before the clasp was planted discovered? There are only these possibilities:

1 the date of the Mirror article is wrong
2 the date in Massei is wrong
3 some dumb cop blurted out something to a journo not realising they hadn't fabricated the evidence yet
4 Dan is *********** with us

I will check up on 1 on Monday.
 
This is my favorite thing about this place. Having people use best efforts to get to the truth even if it doesn't work with a theory they themselves favor.

I'm not sure what this all means about the shoe print timing and the bra clasp but if the PIP create a fabrication I'm glad to have it corrected.

Could it be that Rudi's DNA was on the other part of the bra?
 
This is my favorite thing about this place. Having people use best efforts to get to the truth even if it doesn't work with a theory they themselves favor.

I'm not sure what this all means about the shoe print timing and the bra clasp but if the PIP create a fabrication I'm glad to have it corrected.

Could it be that Rudi's DNA was on the other part of the bra?

It was but Dan's article specifically mentions the clasp. How'd they do that?

ETA is the Mirror the only paper with this story on 17 Dec 2007?
 
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In reading Dan's Mirror story I saw this link:

Meredith shoe 'clue'
27 Apr 2008 00:00
Cops probing the murder of Meredith Kercher yesterday raided her former flat for a THIRD time and took away several pairs of shoes.


Cops probing the murder of Meredith Kercher yesterday raided her former flat for a THIRD time and took away several pairs of shoes.

Officers spent 40 minutes at the apartment in Perugia, Italy, where Meredith, 20, was found semi-naked and with her throat cut six months ago.

They took shoes belonging to Leeds University student Meredith, flatmate Amanda Knox and two other flatmates.

Officers also searched the home of Knox's boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and took shoes, bank statements, plasters and bandages.

Knox, 20, Sollecito, 24, and Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, are accused of killing Meredith, of Croydon, south London.

All deny involvement.

Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini will remain in charge of the investigation despite being charged with abuse of power.


Apparently some evidence is still valid even without the cottage being sealed properly.
 
In reading Dan's Mirror story I saw this link:

Meredith shoe 'clue'
27 Apr 2008 00:00
Cops probing the murder of Meredith Kercher yesterday raided her former flat for a THIRD time and took away several pairs of shoes.


Cops probing the murder of Meredith Kercher yesterday raided her former flat for a THIRD time and took away several pairs of shoes.

Officers spent 40 minutes at the apartment in Perugia, Italy, where Meredith, 20, was found semi-naked and with her throat cut six months ago.

They took shoes belonging to Leeds University student Meredith, flatmate Amanda Knox and two other flatmates.

Officers also searched the home of Knox's boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and took shoes, bank statements, plasters and bandages.

Knox, 20, Sollecito, 24, and Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, are accused of killing Meredith, of Croydon, south London.

All deny involvement.

Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini will remain in charge of the investigation despite being charged with abuse of power.


Apparently some evidence is still valid even without the cottage being sealed properly.
Funny they use the verb 'raided'. What's wrong with 'returned to'? :)
 
Funny they use the verb 'raided'. What's wrong with 'returned to'? :)

It's the Mirror. ;)

ETA - Why would they wait until then to gather shoes? They had the Luminol prints well before, in December. What had gone wrong for them that would cause them to go back. I'd like know what tests they had run recently before they returned.

Also, did anything come out of this "raid".
 
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Guede's DNA was on the band adjacent to where the missing clasp attached. It is possible (and therefore probable) that the mirror's author was simply confused or made a language translation error.

You cannot trust these tabloids for accurate reporting. What I primarily use them for is establishing the time that something happened. It's still a chore to decypher what that something was.
 
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