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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Discovery and Waiting to be Heard

With respect to the lack of discovery Ms. Knox wrote, “Starting right after we were indicted, Raffaele’s and my lawyers had requested the raw data for Stefanoni’s forensic tests…Her response was ‘No..the ones you have will have to suffice.’
"Then during pretrial, the defense lawyers pressed again, and this time Judge Micheli granted the request. Stefanoni gave us some documents—but not enough to interpret the data. When we objected, the judge shrugged and said, ‘Well, I asked her and she said those files aren’t important for you.’”

Ms. Knox continued, “Dr. Gino [in Micheli’s court] noted that Stefanoni hadn’t provided enough information about her investigation for our defense to be able to critique her conclusions.” (pp. 276-277)

(Ms. Knox uses the phrase “raw data” more broadly than I do.) Things had not improved much by 2009. Ann Wise of ABC news wrote, “In testifying for Knox, expert Sarah Gino, who has appeared in court before, called out the prosecution for providing amplified DNA samples with the dates missing.
The dates are important, Gino said, "because they would tell us what samples were tested together on the same day, which might indicate if some of them could have been contaminated." We all have seen the quotes from 2009 before, but I wanted to include them so that we could consider them side-by-side with Ms. Knox's account.
 
With respect to the lack of discovery Ms. Knox wrote, “Starting right after we were indicted, Raffaele’s and my lawyers had requested the raw data for Stefanoni’s forensic tests…Her response was ‘No..the ones you have will have to suffice.’
"Then during pretrial, the defense lawyers pressed again, and this time Judge Micheli granted the request. Stefanoni gave us some documents—but not enough to interpret the data. When we objected, the judge shrugged and said, ‘Well, I asked her and she said those files aren’t important for you.’”

Ms. Knox continued, “Dr. Gino [in Micheli’s court] noted that Stefanoni hadn’t provided enough information about her investigation for our defense to be able to critique her conclusions.” (pp. 276-277)

(Ms. Knox uses the phrase “raw data” more broadly than I do.) Things had not improved much by 2009. Ann Wise of ABC news wrote, “In testifying for Knox, expert Sarah Gino, who has appeared in court before, called out the prosecution for providing amplified DNA samples with the dates missing.
The dates are important, Gino said, "because they would tell us what samples were tested together on the same day, which might indicate if some of them could have been contaminated." We all have seen the quotes from 2009 before, but I wanted to include them so that we could consider them side-by-side with Ms. Knox's account.

I think she uses 'raw data' completely inappropriately, which suggests a disurbing lack of comprehension on her part. At the hearing in mid-September Bongiorno also discloses a lack of understanding of her own about these electronic files. It makes me wonder just how much time the defence team spent with its witnesses.
 
I haven't followed this case in any detail, I've really just watched like two of the fairly in depth Date Line type shows that ran through it all... one was several months ago, one was yesterday.

I can't claim to have deep insight but from what I've seen, it seems pretty obvious that the Italian legal system is a farce, and when people are talking about "sex murders" and "devil worship" or whatever the hell... I'm inclined to get pretty dismissive, pretty fast.

It seems really clear that she and Harry Potter guy are innocent. I could be wrong though, as I said I haven't paid really close attention.

I'm only really posting this to find out what the consensus is in this thread, well... not the consensus, but the breakdown. I'm just curious if there's actually anyone who thinks she helped murder that girl.

If I'm wildly off base in my appraisal of her innocence, feel free to give me a few of the top bullet points why people think she's guilty.
 
I haven't followed this case in any detail, I've really just watched like two of the fairly in depth Date Line type shows that ran through it all... one was several months ago, one was yesterday.

I can't claim to have deep insight but from what I've seen, it seems pretty obvious that the Italian legal system is a farce, and when people are talking about "sex murders" and "devil worship" or whatever the hell... I'm inclined to get pretty dismissive, pretty fast.

It seems really clear that she and Harry Potter guy are innocent. I could be wrong though, as I said I haven't paid really close attention.

I'm only really posting this to find out what the consensus is in this thread, well... not the consensus, but the breakdown. I'm just curious if there's actually anyone who thinks she helped murder that girl.

If I'm wildly off base in my appraisal of her innocence, feel free to give me a few of the top bullet points why people think she's guilty.

My cards on the table.... Knox and Sollecito are stone cold innocent.

However, the only real comprehensive narrative there is which is from a guilt position is John Follain's book, "Death in Italy." I feel strange pointing you to it for obvious reasons, but for also a subtle reason. When I first read it, I could see how he himself believed, "They know something they're not telling us," but I came away from reading it even more convinced of the two's innocence.

If that is the case against them then, wow!

But there are people here who believe them guilty and obviously guilty. One of them, Machiavelli, just masqueraded upthread as a sleep-expert to say why Knox must have been rested and unstressed at interrogation. It was embarrassing and we haven't seen him since.

But ask for a comprehensive theory of the crime that includes the two students. In my opinion, it cannot be done.

I could bore the crap out of you if you want about why I think that the first convicting court's lead judge didn't even think they were guilty, as he convicted them. But that's only if you want.
 
I could bore the crap out of you if you want about why I think that the first convicting court's lead judge didn't even think they were guilty, as he convicted them. But that's only if you want.

Firstly, thanks for the response.

Secondly, have at it. I'd be interested to hear it. I may not read it til tomorrow though, about to go to bed.

Thanks again.
 
Firstly, thanks for the response.

Secondly, have at it. I'd be interested to hear it. I may not read it til tomorrow though, about to go to bed.

Thanks again.

I've already got you off topic. You asked for bullet points for the guilt case, I'm about to give you 11 points which seemingly argue for innocence, from the 400+ page motivations report (reason for judgment) of Judge Massei, who convicted them in 2009. Here it goes:

Judge Massei in his 2010 motivations report, finds as factual:

1) there is no psychopathology in the two students. Massei says the problem is that they were immature and outside of the normal checks and balances of family, away from which they had no reference to check their behaviour.​

Both defendants are very young, and were younger still at the time the events [took place]. The inexperience and immaturity characteristic of youth were accentuated by the situation in which both found themselves because it [the situation] was different from that in which they had grown up and did not have the usual points of reference. Massei p. 391

2) there is no bad relationship between Meredith and Amanda​

One of the motives advanced by the prosecutors was that Knox killed Meredith out of revenge or jealousy.

3) There is no trace of forensics attributable to Amanda Knox in the murder room​

Instead, Massei talks about Amanda's forensic traces in other parts of the houe: "Even the traces highlighted by Luminol therefore show the existence of evidence against Amanda, making [the Court] consider that she, having been barefoot in the room where Meredith was killed and having thus stained her feet, had left the traces highlighted by Luminol (which could have resisted the subsequent action of cleaning, on which more will follow) and found in the various parts of the house which she went to for the reasons shown above (her own room, the corridor, Romanelli’s room)"

If Knox had been barefoot in the murder room - why was it not seen? Massei says nothing about a clean-up in Meredith's room, only in the space in the hall between Meredith's room and the bathroom... but once again, there is no forensics to support even this clean-up. Massei admits he simply has to assume one was made, or he could not reason why nothing was found!.

4) there is no "mixed blood" which combines Amanda's and Meredith's.​

Massei describes repeatedly, "Knox's biological material found mixed with Meredith's blood," but fails to see why finding Knox's biological material (hair, skin flakes, etc.) is suspicious in the very cottage in which she lived and in the very bathroom she shared with Meredith.

5) there is no motive for Knox and Raffaele to have been involved in this.​

Therefore it may be deduced that, accustomed to the consumption of drugs and the effects of the latter, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito participated actively in Rudy’s criminal acts.... A motive, therefore, of an erotic, sexually violent nature which, arising from the choice of evil made by Rudy, found active collaboration from Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Where's the "sex-game gone wrong"? Or the "Amanda was jealous of Meredith"? Massei simply says they got caught up in a momentary "choice for evil".

6) Rudy Guede had no contact with Raffaele prior to the murder, and Amanda Knox and Rudy probably met up to three times in the most casual sense possible and always in groups.​

7)Raffaele called the carabinieri before the postal police arrived.​

Raffaele called the Carabinieri to whom he describes the situation and specifies that there had been no theft, and we have already pointed out the inconsistency of such statement the inconsistencies in Amanda’s and Raffaele’s subsequent behaviour on the arrival of the agents from the Postal Police

8) There is no constant changing of stories by Knox with regard to the murder.​

The recollection by Amanda Knox of the period between the afternoon of November 1 and the morning of November 2 presents some variations [i.e. changes or fluctuations in the story]. However, one constant is the affirmation of her non-involvement in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

9) The climb in through Filomena's window is very possible, the report rules it out only on the grounds because Massei assumes no one woud risk going up three times.​

This scenario appears totally unlikely, given the effort involved (going twice underneath the window, going up to throw the stone, scaling the wall twice) and taking into account the uncertainty of success (having to count on the two favourable circumstances indicated above), with a repetition of movements and 50 behaviours, all of which could easily be seen by anyone who happened to be passing by on the street or actually coming into the house. (p. 50)

10) there is no scientific elements arising directly from forensic science which could rule out the injuries having been caused by the action of a single person.​

to actually answer this question, of whether the criminal action which determined Meredith's death was the action of one person alone or several people acting together, it is necessary to take into account, not only the contributions of forensic science, but also other elements which have emerged and which are relevant to this point, and to evaluate the situation in a way which takes the comprehensive picture into account. (these other elements, Massei claims, are Meredith's stature, Meredith was awake and lying on the bed, she lacked defensive wounds, and that one person would find it difficult to remove/

To be clear, Massei, in fact DID rule multiple attackers and actually named AK and RS as two of them. But he did not rule out that theoretically speaking this could have been a single attacker.

11) Massei only discusses a theoretical clean-up in the hall way, not in the murder room.​

See above.

All these are gleaned from Judge Massei's motivations report, the one supposedly justifying their conviction.
 
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Firstly, thanks for the response.

Secondly, have at it.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :p

Okay you asked for and you will read it or else. :D

I'd be interested to hear it.

That's like saying nice to meet you. You have no idea

I'd say about 80% of the people posting here think they have nothing to do with it. About 10% think that there is no way that the trial proved them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt but don't think they have been proved innocent. About 5% think they were involved and another 5% think they are guilty, guilty, guilty.
 
In my continuing efforts to look at the other side another theme that they push and even some here seem to go along with is Meredith's persona. There is discussion of her great character including a large group of friends, superb scholastics, karate expert etc. They make it out that she was this persona so superior to Amanda that Amanda just had to kill her.

I think both of these women were pretty average college girls. I haven't seen anything that backs the superlatives for Meredith. She had mostly befriended a group of british girls while Amanda had not joined in with a group of Americans. I have never heard of any specifics about Merediths sporting ventures nor her scholastic achievements.

Anglo or any book reader, if you read the book Meredith could you list out some of her specific accomplishments.
 
I haven't followed this case in any detail, I've really just watched like two of the fairly in depth Date Line type shows that ran through it all... one was several months ago, one was yesterday.

I can't claim to have deep insight but from what I've seen, it seems pretty obvious that the Italian legal system is a farce, and when people are talking about "sex murders" and "devil worship" or whatever the hell... I'm inclined to get pretty dismissive, pretty fast.

It seems really clear that she and Harry Potter guy are innocent. I could be wrong though, as I said I haven't paid really close attention.

I'm only really posting this to find out what the consensus is in this thread, well... not the consensus, but the breakdown. I'm just curious if there's actually anyone who thinks she helped murder that girl.

If I'm wildly off base in my appraisal of her innocence, feel free to give me a few of the top bullet points why people think she's guilty.

Amanda and Raffaele are completely innocent, and that is the consensus of the people who participate in this thread.

But, a frenetic online cult has formed around the belief that they are guilty. Its members maintain their own websites, but some of them show up here from time to time. A few people from JREF got caught on the wrong side of this discussion and have taken refuge on those sites.

What happened to Amanda and Raffaele follows the pattern of many wrongful convictions. The authorities made a public accusation before they had fully assessed the evidence, and then they refused to back down. They put together a case based on two incriminating statements signed by Amanda under duress; forensic evidence that has been thoroughly discredited; and witnesses with no credibility, of whom only one (a homeless junkie) claimed to have seen Amanda and Raffaele on the night of the murder.

They have the guy who really did it, a low-life who broke into the place and killed Meredith when she arrived home. The crime scene photos and evidence show what happened, clearly and in great detail.
 
Amanda and Raffaele are completely innocent, and that is the consensus of the people who participate in this thread.

But, a frenetic online cult has formed around the belief that they are guilty. Its members maintain their own websites, but some of them show up here from time to time. A few people from JREF got caught on the wrong side of this discussion and have taken refuge on those sites.

What happened to Amanda and Raffaele follows the pattern of many wrongful convictions. The authorities made a public accusation before they had fully assessed the evidence, and then they refused to back down. They put together a case based on two incriminating statements signed by Amanda under duress; forensic evidence that has been thoroughly discredited; and witnesses with no credibility, of whom only one (a homeless junkie) claimed to have seen Amanda and Raffaele on the night of the murder.

They have the guy who really did it, a low-life who broke into the place and killed Meredith when she arrived home. The crime scene photos and evidence show what happened, clearly and in great detail.

To say one thing about the highlighted part... I've been following this since perhaps Aug 2011, and got involved heavily on-line in Oct 2011 three days after the acquittals.

I have had perhaps half a dozen (maybe more) private PM-conversations with individuals describing themselves as convinced of Knox's & Sollecito's guilt, and even some who think them innocent of the murder, but that, "they know something they are not telling us."

Outside of the competitiveness of the public forums, I experienced these posters as far, far more thoughtful and reasonable than a review of their public posts would suggest. (Maybe they say the same about me!)

Two of these folk seemed far, far more willing to admit to shades of grey about the evidence... one actually conceded everything I put to him (her?) but the PMs concluded with, "Still - she's a liar and all the lies she told about the murder still convince me." It's why I went on the hunt for a "list of Knox's lies" from a guilt perspective, and can post that, too, if you'd like.

(It's why I was surprised to find even Judge Massei concede in his report that Knox patently did NOT constantly change her story about involvement in the murder. At most, she had two story-changes: I wasn't there, changed to I was there with my hands over my ears, and finally to I wasn't there where it has been the same ever since.)

But to the point - IIRC two (or more) conceded that they engaged in over the top vilification of Knox because they wanted to fit in at the hate sites. They implied that one should not take their postings seriously. I was stunned.

Anyway, for what it's worth.
 
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my two cents on their innocence

Skeptic Tank,

I have seen even intelligent people get sucked into one or another narrative that seeks to explain why Amanda and Raffaele would murder Meredith, possibly in a drug-fueled haze. What amazes me is the complete and utter lack of evidence: No evidence of drug use beyond marijuana, no contact between Guede and the other two, no plausible murder weapon (the knife? make me laugh), no incriminating conversations, etc. Each time I looked at another aspect of the evidence, it fell apart. I have looked especially hard at the DNA and blood forensics, both the quality of work and the lack of discovery were indefensible.

There is not absolute proof of innocence, but there are two strong, independent indications that Meredith was attacked before 10 PM, and that leaves almost no time for Amanda and Raffaele to meet up with Guede and commit the murder, even using the last undisputed interaction on Raf's computer as the time of their departure from his flat.
EDT
I am 99.999999% convinced that both had nothing to do with this crime and that they don't know any more than they have already said.
 
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But to the point - IIRC two (or more) conceded that they engaged in over the top vilification of Knox because they wanted to fit in at the hate sites. They implied that one should not take their postings seriously. I was stunned


Man, that's interesting and kind of scary.

Hopefully they keep their sheepish ways confided to the internet and are never in a position of authority or have power where they could be swayed to harm others in order to "fit in"
 
Skeptic Tank,

It is important to note the only evidence of Amanda, Raffaele, and Guede getting together to kill Meredith Kercher is in Mignini's head. It is sitting right next to the evidence that 16 prominent citizens of Florence were engaged in a Monster of Florence body parts conspiracy.
 
Skeptic Tank,

It is important to note the only evidence of Amanda, Raffaele, and Guede getting together to kill Meredith Kercher is in Mignini's head. It is sitting right next to the evidence that 16 prominent citizens of Florence were engaged in a Monster of Florence body parts conspiracy.

To be fair it's also in Massei's motivations report. Napoleoni also seemed fairly convinced, too.
 
I haven't followed this case in any detail, I've really just watched like two of the fairly in depth Date Line type shows that ran through it all... one was several months ago, one was yesterday.

I can't claim to have deep insight but from what I've seen, it seems pretty obvious that the Italian legal system is a farce, and when people are talking about "sex murders" and "devil worship" or whatever the hell... I'm inclined to get pretty dismissive, pretty fast.

It seems really clear that she and Harry Potter guy are innocent. I could be wrong though, as I said I haven't paid really close attention.

I'm only really posting this to find out what the consensus is in this thread, well... not the consensus, but the breakdown. I'm just curious if there's actually anyone who thinks she helped murder that girl.

If I'm wildly off base in my appraisal of her innocence, feel free to give me a few of the top bullet points why people think she's guilty.

That's one of the most bizarre things in this "trial by forum", is the Guitler party bullet-points.
Example take 100 Guilter posters, there would be 300 different guilty scenarios.

Then almost all of these theory's are contradicting each other. Even the prosecutor changed the entire theory several times. The Judges if read from the beginning all have contradicting , and incorrect theorys ex. Matteini and other evidence that was later found to be garbage evidence.

The main Guilter websites seem overly obsessed with Amanda, and defend Guede, and Raffaele is left out most the time. Even though Massei(guilty verdict Judge) doesn't, he finds Guede the main evil.

good luck in learning the Guilt-club scenarios...
 
That's one of the most bizarre things in this "trial by forum", is the Guitler party bullet-points.
Example take 100 Guilter posters, there would be 300 different guilty scenarios.

Then almost all of these theory's are contradicting each other. Even the prosecutor changed the entire theory several times. The Judges if read from the beginning all have contradicting , and incorrect theorys ex. Matteini and other evidence that was later found to be garbage evidence.

The main Guilter websites seem overly obsessed with Amanda, and defend Guede, and Raffaele is left out most the time. Even though Massei(guilty verdict Judge) doesn't, he finds Guede the main evil.

good luck in learning the Guilt-club scenarios...

Then there is author Barbie Nadeau's theory. Barbie Nadeau behaves herself when CNN's go-to person in Italy about the case. She said on the night of the conviction in Dec 2009, "The case against Knox was weak, but the defence was weaker. This could very well be over turned at appeal."

When off CNN she doesn't behave herself. She's filled with vague assertions, like, "Knox is not telling us everything she knows."

Then there's her book.... the plot of her accounting of this case is literally.... "sex, sex, sex, threesomes, sex, sex, threesomes, sex, murder, clean-up, staged break-in, sex, sex, sex, sex, sex, lying about Lumumba, prison sex, prison sex."

That's about it for her book.
 
Will Barbie Nadeau ever comment on that photo she took showing the door on the sealed crime scene wide open before the prosecution went back to "discover" the only physical evidence that implicated Raffaele in the murder?
 
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