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Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...rial-cop-application-20130604,0,7772961.story

SANFORD – Prosecutors have filed paperwork, revealing that murder defendant George Zimmerman applied to become a police officer in a county near Washington, D.C. but was turned down.

His application and rejection letter are among the latest pieces of evidence the state has notified defense attorneys they may use at Zimmerman's trial, which begins Monday.


Really ? Is this going to be part of the states 15th supplemental discovery ???? How is it possible this some kind of recent revelation ?

Also, does anyone here actually believe the state may actually use this ?

You left out this bit.

The new evidence list includes information that Zimmerman trained at a Longwood gym that specializes in boxing and kickboxing.

A webpage for the business, Kokopelli's Gym, describes it as "the most complete fight gym in the world."

So the former bouncer, wannabe cop, and all around tough guy, trained in martial arts at the most complete fight gym in the world.

But we are supposed to believe that this same guy went from pissed off at the ******** who always get away, strapped with his firearm, to scared to death in 40 seconds and just had to shoot that skinny little kid who he outweighed by 50 pounds. Because he couldn't fight back, even a little bit.

And he's got no bruises on his arms. No blood on his murder victim's hands, and the state is going to say that his victim begged for help.

Yeah, I'm guessing the state is going to enjoy using this just fine.

P.S. I can only imagine what your reaction would be if you found out that Trayvon Martin trained at a gym specializing in fighting.
 
All Judge Nelson's ruling have case law to support them. Your dissatisfaction with them doesn't negate them. They are allowed to depose Crump with strict limitations.

No, but the unanimous decision buy the DCA does negate your assertion that her decision was supported by case law. If her ruling was actually supported, it wouldn't have been overturned.:boggled:
 
Right, but he also said TM asked him beforehand "You got a problem?" and after GZ said "No, I don't have a problem", that was when GZ went to look where his phone was, and TM said "You do now" and punched him.

You are choosing to include the part where GZ reaches for his phone in his pocket as factual, but dismissing the other parts... why? Do you believe GZ was actually reaching for his weapon? If so, do you really think GZ would have had to search amongst his various pockets to determine where his gun was, when all along he would know it was near his hip, in its holster?

You seem to be choosing to only include the parts that GZ provided that serve to incriminate him, and are arbitrarily removing the parts that take away the justification for TM's actions, or that justify GZ's actions. How is that in any way a logical attempt to figure out what "really" happened? You're selectively taking pieces from the puzzle and arranging it in such a way that is specifically intended to present GZ as guilty.
Edited by Gaspode: 
Edited for moderated thread.

And you seem to be choosing to only include the parts that serve to justify GZ's actions.

I, or no stranger, don't know where George keeps his roscoe, so if he "had to search amongst his various pockets to determine where his gun was"* to an observer he may well have been trying to produce it

And I note how Witness 8 account of the opening words, which provide context for the later ones, has been truncated i the George version so make if seem that he was wandering around slightly lost when this big black thug emerged from the darkness is inquire (as George told Frank Forman)

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/george-zimmerman-fbi-interviews-689452

“Do you have a problem Mother **********?” Zimmerman said he responded, “No, I don’t have a problem.” Martin then allegedly said “You do now,” and struck Zimmerman in the face. Zimmerman reported seeing “stars,” and “fell back, first onto his butt and then on to his back.”

or in the version he toild a co-worker the next day.
described being “mugged” by Martin, who bashed his head on the ground while saying, “you don’t know who you are messing with” and “now you’re going to die ************.” As described by Zimmerman, the woman told agents, “Martin was kicking the crap out of” him.

Is George using his friends as sounding boards, trying for the most sympathetic version?









* NB how testimony from George that he reached for one pocket has morphed into a "hold on I know I've got it somewhere" search.
 
He was certainly not running while he was on the phone.


We don't know that for sure either way. I take it you are in the "it was just the wind" camp.


He was certainly not running while he was on the phone.

I continue to be amazed at the wild assumptions made in this thread.


I would like to point out the word "certainly" in your first sentence and then compare that to your second sentence.

"Certainly", by definition, means you have solid 100% evidence that he was not running. I'm not sure how you could have that from an audio source.
 
Well, in one of the interviews, when GZ was confronted (by Singleton, I believe) with "It sounds like you were running", GZ responded with "No, it was just windy". Serino then chimed in with a "Yeah it was", so apparently Serino could attest to it being windy that evening.


Apparently not.

He could be attesting.

He could also be just trying to get on Z's side on a minor detail. Being non-confrontational in his interview process.

Heck, for all we know he was being sarcastic.

Also, don't forget the possibility that it was windy and he was running. They are not exclusionary.
 
And interesting tidbit:

You can go to Google Maps and search for "Trayvon Martin". Then choose search nearby and choose "gym". Then you can see that there are something like 15 fitness gyms near Twin Trees.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=gym&...gym&hnear=Shooting+of+Trayvon+Martin&t=m&z=12

But the gym he DID go to, the one that specializes in MMA fighting, the one where they train you in "submission grappling" and boxing and kickboxing, that one is a full 12 miles away. If that's where he chose to train instead of the myriad places around the corner from his home, then is there any doubt he was there to learn to fight?
 
And interesting tidbit:

You can go to Google Maps and search for "Trayvon Martin". Then choose search nearby and choose "gym". Then you can see that there are something like 15 fitness gyms near Twin Trees.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=gym&...gym&hnear=Shooting+of+Trayvon+Martin&t=m&z=12

But the gym he DID go to, the one that specializes in MMA fighting, the one where they train you in "submission grappling" and boxing and kickboxing, that one is a full 12 miles away. If that's where he chose to train instead of the myriad places around the corner from his home, then is there any doubt he was there to learn to fight?


If that's where he learned to fight, he clearly deserves a refund.

If he was so well versed in MMA ... why did witness 6 describe TM as the MMA fighter, not GZ ?
 
You're right, because in O'Mara's case no accusation is necessary. His falsehood is a matter of record, and one to which he admitted.

That Zimmerman's defenders choose to believe his falsehood was not a blatant lie is both precious and completely unsurprising.

Since there video of TM laughing and making comments as he filmed two homeless people fighting over a bike, it seems quite plausible that it was simply a mis-statement

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...531,0,7127296.story+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"But what the video shows is Trayvon and a friend encountering two homeless men who are fighting over a bicycle. Trayvon moves closer and records the fight and while he does, can be heard laughing."

Because that makes him so much better than filming his friends ... . Either way, he looks like a violent sociopath...


And you have no evidence it was anything but an unintentional mis-statement. Not a falsehood or a lie. If you have some evidence, feel free to provide it ...

You'll note that the mistakes claimed by the prosecution were neither fabrications nor prejudicial, or even material.

But hey, when you're constructing a tu quoque argument, you've got work with what you've got, even if the pickings are slim and irrelevant.

Tu quoque ? I didn't say BDLR lied, did I ?

Continue in his plot to poison the jury, naturally. Do you think everyone who heard about the alleged video showing Martin and his friends beating a homeless person senseless also heard about the retraction? Or do you think some people might only be aware of the former?

Oh, I agree, there is some number of people who heard about one, but not the other. But it's up to you to provide any evidence the number is significant. Personally, I saw no MSM coverage of the statement, just the apology.

Funny how the side of the debate that continues to rail about how unfairly Zimmerman was represented in the media over a year ago has no issue with the defense just completely manufacturing the existence of prejudicial evidence against Martin.

How did you determine I had no issue with it ?? Seriously, stop trying to make me responsible for these nebulous 'things' you blame on "one side" or "GZ supporters". If I made some specific claim, discuss that.
 
No, but the unanimous decision buy the DCA does negate your assertion that her decision was supported by case law. If her ruling was actually supported, it wouldn't have been overturned.:boggled:

No, it doesn't. The rulings she made in the last hearing were supported by case law. The DCA said the DT could depose Crump but within VERY strict limits. So, not so much cause for celebration there.
 
Since there video of TM laughing and making comments as he filmed two homeless people fighting over a bike, it seems quite plausible that it was simply a mis-statement

O'Mara said the video depicted Martin and his friends beating a homeless man senseless. He manufactured something out of whole cloth that is not at all what the video depicts, and that just so happened to paint his client's victim in a disparaging manner. That's a far cry from a "misstatement".

"But what the video shows is Trayvon and a friend encountering two homeless men who are fighting over a bicycle. Trayvon moves closer and records the fight and while he does, can be heard laughing."

Because that makes him so much better than filming his friends ... . Either way, he looks like a violent sociopath...

Yes, nothing says "violent sociopath" like someone not engaging in any actual violence. :rolleyes:

By your logic, that same video also demonstrates what an excellent water-skier Martin is since it also doesn't show him water-skiing.

And you have no evidence it was anything but an unintentional mis-statement. Not a falsehood or a lie. If you have some evidence, feel free to provide it ...

I guess I'll just have to wait for the Conservative Tinfoil Hat to post an article claiming that the evidence exists without ever actually providing that evidence, because apparently that's all it takes for some people around here to believe something is true.

Tu quoque ? I didn't say BDLR lied, did I ?

Yeah, pretty much in the opening sentence of your post.

Oh, I agree, there is some number of people who heard about one, but not the other. But it's up to you to provide any evidence the number is significant. Personally, I saw no MSM coverage of the statement, just the apology.

I'll get right on providing you that evidence just as soon as you provide the evidence that proves Martin was involved in a burglary.

Because it seems to me you're a few weeks overdue with that, and several of us are still waiting.

How did you determine I had no issue with it ?? Seriously, stop trying to make me responsible for these nebulous 'things' you blame on "one side" or "GZ supporters". If I made some specific claim, discuss that.

Fair enough.

What are your feelings about what O'Mara did as far as the prejudicial effect in can have on potential jurors? Please be specific.

And are you more or less incensed over this issue than you are over the issue of the initial media reports that used a photo of Martin that depicted him as much younger contrasted with a mug shot of Zimmerman? Please state your reasons.
 
Since there video of TM laughing and making comments as he filmed two homeless people fighting over a bike, it seems quite plausible that it was simply a mis-statement

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...531,0,7127296.story+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"But what the video shows is Trayvon and a friend encountering two homeless men who are fighting over a bicycle. Trayvon moves closer and records the fight and while he does, can be heard laughing."

Because that makes him so much better than filming his friends ... . Either way, he looks like a violent sociopath...

So, being amused or entertained by a fight makes you a "violent sociopath" now? If so, the US is full of violent sociopaths.

"George Zimmerman once watched a Superbowl, and had a DVD of "Scarface", what a scoop!"

Sorry, but people in the US will pay large sums of money to watch violent confrontations, so a person in the US watching a fight isn't a sign of violent sociopathy, at all.
 
No, but the unanimous decision buy the DCA does negate your assertion that her decision was supported by case law. If her ruling was actually supported, it wouldn't have been overturned.:boggled:

No, it doesn't. The rulings she made in the last hearing were supported by case law. The DCA said the DT could depose Crump but within VERY strict limits. So, not so much cause for celebration there.

Your contention that Judge Nelsons ruling was based on case law is absurd, unless what you mean is it was incorrectly based on case law.

http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0613/dca5_opinion.pdf

Ultimately, after a hearing on Zimmerman's motion, the trial court entered a written order
denying Zimmerman's request to depose Crump. in its order, the trial court found that Crurnp
was "an opposing counsel"...
The trial court also found that Crump could not be compelled to disclose any
information regarding his interview of Witness 8 because the information constituted
protected work product obtained by Crump in his capacity as an attorney for the Martin
family preparing for possible future civil litigation against Zimmerman.

We respectfully disagree with the trial court's analysis. First, the fact that Crump represents
Martin's family does not make him "an opposing counsel....Second, we also conclude that any
testimony given by Crump as to the substance of his interview of Witness 8 and the surrounding circumstances thereto would not violate the work product privilege because any privilege that
may have existed was waived when Crump conducted the interview in the presence of two media representatives who subsequently aired portions of the interview on national television.


Judge Nelson was wrong in her determinations, her determinations weren't supported by case law just because you assert they were. In fact, they clearly are not, as demonstrated above.
 
Yeah, the defense actually has the evidence they are claiming the prosecution failed to disclose to them (and has had it for several months), so I'm not seeing where the discovery violation is.

https://twitter.com/TonyPipitone/statuses/342673748845027329


However, in the April 30th hearing when this issue was last discussed, after West acknowledged the defense had previously received the raw data, de la Rionda claimed the prosecution had no further information regarding that data to disclose to the prosecution. But that was in the context of discussing what Cellebrite had provided to them, so I'm not sure if that was meant to include what they had retrieved internally.

Either way, it's without a doubt that the defense was given the evidence in question, so the discovery violation claim seems to hang on a semantic quibble as opposed to an actual withholding of evidence.

BDLR was specifically asked if the state had received any reports, etc. He told the court no, and that seems to be clearly not true, and apparently violates the states discovery duty to turn over information.

It's not honest to try to characterize that as a "semantic quibble"
 
BDLR was specifically asked if the state had received any reports, etc. He told the court no, and that seems to be clearly not true, and apparently violates the states discovery duty to turn over information.

Please direct me to the judge's ruling in which the two bolded items were determined. I look forward to reading it.
 
O'Mara said the video depicted Martin and his friends beating a homeless man senseless. He manufactured something out of whole cloth that is not at all what the video depicts, and that just so happened to paint his client's victim in a disparaging manner. That's a far cry from a "misstatement". :

The "victim" probably should be disparaged for either the actual act he did or the mistakenly described act. They aren't that different.

Yes, nothing says "violent sociopath" like someone not engaging in any actual violence. :rolleyes

Since MOM incorrectly characterized him as recording a fight, when in reality what he actually was doing was ... recording a fight ... in either instance, not engaging in any actual violence. But somehow in the case MOM described it made him ( your words) a "violent sociopath." :
Characterized the video he had known about for nine months in such a way that just happened to make Martin look like a violent sociopath. Oopsie!

Oopsies. I think your term, "violent sociopath" still applies.

By your logic, that same video also demonstrates what an excellent water-skier Martin is since it also doesn't show him water-skiing.
I guess I'll just have to wait for the Conservative Tinfoil Hat to post an article claiming that the evidence exists without ever actually providing that evidence, because apparently that's all it takes for some people around here to believe something is true.

That was a response to asking you for evidence MOM was intentionally lying. I'll just take that non-sequitor to mean no, you don't have evidence, you just think he is lying.

Of course, you will recall earlier in the thread when I proposed that MOM might be lying about knowing how much money GZ had, etc, you were quick to point out how MOM would never risk telling a lie for his client, etc. But it seems now that it is more palatable to your POV, you can accuse MOM of lying (without any evidence).

Yeah, pretty much in the opening sentence of your post.

I said BDLR was accused of lying. It seemed like it was amply demonstrated in court today as well. That still doesn't mean I was making a tu quoque argument.

I'll get right on providing you that evidence just as soon as you provide the evidence that proves Martin was involved in a burglary.

Because it seems to me you're a few weeks overdue with that, and several of us are still waiting.

I don't have direct evidence, and I have already admitted it. How many times do you need me to say that ? The jewelry and screwdriver are , however, circumstantial evidence he was involved in a burglary.

If you choose not to back up your claim, please don't use me as the excuse.

Fair enough.

What are your feelings about what O'Mara did as far as the prejudicial effect in can have on potential jurors? Please be specific.

And are you more or less incensed over this issue than you are over the issue of the initial media reports that used a photo of Martin that depicted him as much younger contrasted with a mug shot of Zimmerman? Please state your reasons.

You are the one making the claim about how it's going to poison the jury, so let's see your evidence...

But I'll still answer your question - I doubt MOM's mistaken description will have much effect, because, as I already pointed out, I didn't see that it was widely covered at all in the MSM. They had plenty of other tidbits to feed the public at the time. And I think the public has already gotten a good look at the character if TM. Guns, drugs, suspensions, fights, getting kicked out of his moms house. As you pointed out earlier in the thread ... guns are used to kill people. Why did TM need a gun ?

The discovery was much more detrimental to the view of what kind of person TM was than MOMs mistaken video description. That's why he provided copies for the world on his website. That was the dick move you really ought to be complaining about, not what was likely an actual mistake.
 
My brain was not multitasking properly. Yes, her decision was overturned by the DCA, but with strict limitations.

The rulings she made on the matters before the court last wee were made based on case law.

Two entirely different things and I didn't separate them out. My apologies.
 
The "victim" probably should be disparaged for either the actual act he did or the mistakenly described act. They aren't that different.

Since MOM incorrectly characterized him as recording a fight, when in reality what he actually was doing was ... recording a fight ... in either instance, not engaging in any actual violence. But somehow in the case MOM described it made him ( your words) a "violent sociopath." :
​

Oopsies. I think your term, "violent sociopath" still applies.

One is a situation in which Martin was involved in the beating of homeless man. The other is a situation in which two homeless men fight over a bicycle.

The first denotes horrific, unwarranted violence with Martin's participation, and is a felony.

The second denotes what could simply be an argument, isn't even explicitly violent, and most importantly, establishes Martin as a spectator not participating in a crime.

The difference is clear and obvious, and certainly enough to force O'Mara to issue an apology for his "misstatement".

That was a response to asking you for evidence MOM was intentionally lying. I'll just take that non-sequitor to mean no, you don't have evidence, you just think he is lying.

The evidence I have that O'Mara is lying is every bit as valid and compelling as the evidence you have that Martin was involved in a burglary.

Of course, you will recall earlier in the thread when I proposed that MOM might be lying about knowing how much money GZ had, etc, you were quick to point out how MOM would never risk telling a lie for his client, etc. But it seems now that it is more palatable to your POV, you can accuse MOM of lying (without any evidence).

Actually, I owe you an apology on this issue. You were right. O'Mara is a liar.

I said BDLR was accused of lying. It seemed like it was amply demonstrated in court today as well.

It was? Could you please link the judge's ruling in which these lies were determined?

I don't have direct evidence, and I have already admitted it. How many times do you need me to say that ? The jewelry and screwdriver are , however, circumstantial evidence he was involved in a burglary.

Oh, I get it now. Only I am required to provide actual evidence for my claims. You get to admit you have no evidence and then continue to assert your claim.

You are the one making the claim about how it's going to poison the jury, so let's see your evidence...

Well, I don't have any direct evidence that O'Mara is attempting to poison the jury pool, but I do have circumstantial evidence.

And that would of course be O'Mara's posting on his website irrelevant, prejudicial evidence when he was under absolutely no obligation to do so, and which he did after the jury summons had been sent out. I can even cite the opinion of respected lawyer to back up this claim, if you like.

But I'll still answer your question - I doubt MOM's mistaken description will have much effect, because, as I already pointed out, I didn't see that it was widely covered at all in the MSM. They had plenty of other tidbits to feed the public at the time. And I think the public has already gotten a good look at the character if TM. Guns, drugs, suspensions, fights, getting kicked out of his moms house. As you pointed out earlier in the thread ... guns are used to kill people. Why did TM need a gun ?

Yeah, that Martin sure sounded like a bad egg, because of course everything you just asserted can be substantiated with rock-solid evidence.

But then again, the public also knows that Zimmerman is a guy who is trained to fight, assaults law enforcement officers, has restraining orders to prevent him from committing domestic violence taken out against him, and has a predilection for raping his underage blood relatives. Doesn't sound like too great a guy either, does he?

The discovery was much more detrimental to the view of what kind of person TM was than MOMs mistaken video description. That's why he provided copies for the world on his website. That was the dick move you really ought to be complaining about, not what was likely an actual mistake.

I already commented on that. And of course, Zimmerman's defenders are just hunky dory with that bit of sleazy behavior on O'Mara's part.
 
If he was so well versed in MMA ... why did witness 6 describe TM as the MMA fighter, not GZ ?

Why does anyone have to explain why someone said something they would later retract and clarify?

Oh wait... I remember now. It's only Zimmerman who gets multiple chances to tell the same story until he arrives at "what really happened".

For anyone else, the very first thing they say is the irrefutable, undeniable truth even if they later admit they were mistaken.
 
BDLR was specifically asked if the state had received any reports, etc. He told the court no, and that seems to be clearly not true, and apparently violates the states discovery duty to turn over information.

Please direct me to the judge's ruling in which the two bolded items were determined. I look forward to reading it.

If you are following the case, you know the judge had not ruled on the issue when I made the post, and in fact, will not rule on these issues until after the trial. That's why I used the hilited words to express my interpretation of the evidence that was presented yesterday.

Do you really need a judge to tell you if someone is lying or not, or can you make that determination on your own ?
 

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