Sheriff Joe Arapio slapped down by judge.

[Mudcat]

They fled Civil War, death squads, lack of food, lack of jobs, crimes, etc. When you don't have enough to eat, you've lost your land, and the head of the local death squad/criminal-gang/guerrilla group warns you to leave or else, well then, minimum wage on a construction site in the US and sleeping on a cousin's floor while you save your money looks pretty damn good.

20+ years later all the parents are working decent jobs, one started his own small company, and their kids are soon to be college graduates. That's a lot of talent and productive labor we would have lost if we'd kicked them out.

Imagine if they were to take that effort, determination, and hard work to stand up to the situation instead of running. I'd imagine their countries would be a lot better places than they are now.

By the way, arguing that something "makes sense" isn't valid argumentation. It's pretty much the same as the claim that something is self-evident.

If they are here illegally than there is no realistic way to check their criminal backgrounds and determine if they're clean and here because of some sob story or because of a criminal act that would get them killed had they not left.

So yes, "it makes sense" is valid in this case.

Do you think they undertake such journeys lightly? Imagine how desperate someone must be in order to under go such a journey and look them in the eyes and call them stupid.

Any decisions taken in desperation should be considered unwise at the very least. You can't deny that.

For a U.S. citizen there's not much upside to moving illegally to another country in order to do menial work.

I would say the same even if you weren't a United States citizen.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

You bleeding hearts are all wailing about some desperate situation sob story that illegals run from instead of directing the energies into doing something about it. They leave they families behind alone, in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about with no defense or support in order to undertake a dangerous journey that could very well get them killed all for thankless jobs that pay them less than minimum wage in a foreign country where they have no contacts and are treated as being suspicious.

And if they die where does that leave their poor, defenseless family that they left behind in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about?

And you wonder why I consider it stupid?

I doubt it.

Doubt it if you like. I'm not a person who likes unnecessary complications in my life, which is all that breaking the law will get you. Unless you're an illegal alien, apparently.

 

[Minoosh]

You just proved that you are a racist and BIGOT.

Welcome to real life bigot.

One of the things I like best about this forum is that name-calling is discouraged. It's rude, but that's only part of it. More to the point it's very often a fallacy. The bar is set where it is not because everyone here is so nicey-nicey, but because ad hominem attacks are a lazy and often dishonest form of debate.

There are plenty of places to go for the "You're an idiot, no, you're an idiot" discussion style. The Internet is full of them.

If someone here says "Republicans are idiots," that's a fallacy of its own, overgeneralization. Because the grammar is saying "ALL Republicans are idiots." There are quite a few (liberal) posters here who IMO do overgeneralize about "conservatives," but the poster you responded to you generally doesn't.

 

[RandFan]

You bleeding hearts are all wailing about some desperate situation sob story that illegals run from instead of directing the energies into doing something about it. They leave they families behind alone, in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about with no defense or support in order to undertake a dangerous journey that could very well get them killed all for thankless jobs that pay them less than minimum wage in a foreign country where they have no contacts and are treated as being suspicious.

And if they die where does that leave their poor, defenseless family that they left behind in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about?

And you wonder why I consider it stupid?

During the great depression it was common for fathers to leave their families to find work in order to support their families. They didn't abandon the families, they tried desperately to find a means to support them. Sitting at home and watching your children suffer is neither brave nor smart. In their place I damn sure would do the same. I utterly reject your judgement of them. They are human beings making the best of an awful situation.

Now, what should America do about this humanitarian problem? It's a question that reasonable can disagree on. Attacking the people who are trying to feed their families is just gratuitous IMO.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

During the great depression it was common for fathers to leave their families to find work in order to support their families. They didn't abandon the families, they tried desperately to find a means to support them. Sitting at home and watching your children suffer is neither brave nor smart. In their place I damn sure would do the same. I utterly reject your judgement of them. They are human beings making the best of an awful situation.

Not to mention that migration by entire families at one time was the exception, not the rule. Generally it was done when an entire population was fleeing, such as the famine Irish or east European Jews (or the Pilgrims circa 1600s). It's not a coincidence that those groups also had some of the lowest rates of return.

Basically by denouncing modern immigrants as men abandoning their families, Mudcat is denouncing most immigrant groups that have ever come to the US: English, Scots-Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Poles, etc., etc. They all were dominated by young men leaving their families. Some made families here, many returned ("Birds of Passage") and many saved their money and brought their families over. The current Central American immigrants fit very well into the historic patterns if migration to the US.

Google Ravenstein's Laws of Migration sometime. They're still quite interesting.

 

[RandFan]

Not to mention that migration by entire families at one time was the exception, not the rule. Generally it was done when an entire population was fleeing, such as the famine Irish or east European Jews (or the Pilgrims circa 1600s). It's not a coincidence that those groups also had some of the lowest rates of return.

Basically by denouncing modern immigrants as men abandoning their families, Mudcat is denouncing most immigrant groups that have ever come to the US: English, Scots-Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Poles, etc., etc. They all were dominated by young men leaving their families. Some made families here, many returned ("Birds of Passage") and many saved their money and brought their families over. The current Central American immigrants fit very well into the historic patterns if migration to the US.

Google Ravenstein's Laws of Migration sometime. They're still quite interesting.

Thank you. Yes.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Someone once mocked Franklin by saying, those who would give up a little of their hot dog for some ketchup deserve neither hot dog or ketchup. Something like that.

No true American puts ketchup on a hot dog.

 

[Minoosh]

Imagine if they were to take that effort, determination, and hard work to stand up to the situation instead of running. I'd imagine their countries would be a lot better places than they are now.

Dang, if those wimps who "run" would just stand up to the death squads, cartels, etc.! What are they thinking?

This thing about staying and fixing their own countries: It seems to me that by that logic no one should ever leave any country due to a bad situation.

If they are here illegally than there is no realistic way to check their criminal backgrounds and determine if they're clean and here because of some sob story or because of a criminal act that would get them killed had they not left.

That's one reason I want to get as many as we can on the books. Fingerprint, DNA samples, background check. If we don't know they're here, we can't check on them.

Any decisions taken in desperation should be considered unwise at the very least. You can't deny that.

That doesn't make sense. If you're desperate you should never make a decision?

You bleeding hearts are all wailing about some desperate situation sob story that illegals run from instead of directing the energies into doing something about it. They leave they families behind alone, in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about with no defense or support in order to undertake a dangerous journey that could very well get them killed all for thankless jobs that pay them less than minimum wage in a foreign country where they have no contacts and are treated as being suspicious.

OK, ask yourself: Why do they do it? And, maybe question your assumptions every once in a while. It is dangerous, but the vast majority don't die. Many bring families or come from extended families where children and old people are cared for. I've been thankful for the jobs they do and I'm not alone. "Minimum wage" goes a long way if you're sending $$ to Mexico. (Ever wonder how they live on minimum wage AND send remittances?). Often they have plenty of contacts, and not everyone treats Mexicans as "suspicious."

And you wonder why I consider it stupid?

It's a risk, but not all risks are stupid. There are rewards. If there weren't, people wouldn't do it.

 

[RandFan]

And you wonder why I consider it stupid?

It's a risk, but not all risks are stupid. There are rewards. If there weren't, people wouldn't do it.

He must have a lot of contempt for the Pilgrims and Pioneers. Many of the very first settlers died. On subsequent voyages many settlers died in transit of scurvy and other diseases. Once here they often died of the elements, lack of food in the winter and natives.

 

[elbe]

He must have a lot of contempt for the Pilgrims and Pioneers. Many of the very first settlers died. On subsequent voyages many settlers died in transit of scurvy and other diseases. Once here they often died of the elements, lack of food in the winter and natives.

Didn't they all come to the new world so they could commit crimes without having a record?

 

[Minoosh]

One time a group of illegals was lost in 105-110 temps. They knew they were doomed. One set off to try to find the migra so they could get help. But when he came back with the Border Patrol agent they were all dead.

A reader's comment on an article said: "What kind of guy would leave his friends to die of thirst in the desert?"

I'm not sure the reader could have grasped how little sense that made.

 

[BenBurch]

No true American puts ketchup on a hot dog.

Amen!

A hot dog should have onions, relish, mustard, celery salt, a pickle wedge, a tomato wedge or two, and optionally sport peppers. And it should be served on a poppyseed bun.

Damn.

Now I'm hungry.

 

[Minoosh]

If you don't like people for being bigots, then you are bigot!

I can't stand intolerance

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Hi-ya!

Drag it through the garden and give the pepper vine an extra shake.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Imagine if they were to take that effort, determination, and hard work to stand up to the situation instead of running. I'd imagine their countries would be a lot better places than they are now.




If they are here illegally than there is no realistic way to check their criminal backgrounds and determine if they're clean and here because of some sob story or because of a criminal act that would get them killed had they not left.

So yes, "it makes sense" is valid in this case.



Any decisions taken in desperation should be considered unwise at the very least. You can't deny that.



I would say the same even if you weren't a United States citizen.



You bleeding hearts are all wailing about some desperate situation sob story that illegals run from instead of directing the energies into doing something about it. They leave they families behind alone, in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about with no defense or support in order to undertake a dangerous journey that could very well get them killed all for thankless jobs that pay them less than minimum wage in a foreign country where they have no contacts and are treated as being suspicious.

And if they die where does that leave their poor, defenseless family that they left behind in that desperate situation sob story that you're wailing about?

And you wonder why I consider it stupid?



Doubt it if you like. I'm not a person who likes unnecessary complications in my life, which is all that breaking the law will get you. Unless you're an illegal alien, apparently.

You've never drove over the speed limit?

 

[Mudcat]

Dang, if those wimps who "run" would just stand up to the death squads, cartels, etc.! What are they thinking?

Tell it to Ghandi. Huh, did you hear that? That was the sound of your argument made invalid.

This thing about staying and fixing their own countries: It seems to me that by that logic no one should ever leave any country due to a bad situation.

These people already ditched at least one country because the situation got bad, do you really think they'd stick around here if the situation got as bad here (before you get started, yes I know the hypothetical is highly unlikely) and help us resolve it or run again? We don't need fair weather immigrants.

That's one reason I want to get as many as we can on the books. Fingerprint, DNA samples, background check. If we don't know they're here, we can't check on them.

Finally you say something I can agree with.

That doesn't make sense. If you're desperate you should never make a decision?

No, if you're desperate you should make a more carefully considered decision. That saying about desperate times is one I've always considered to be misleading and ill-conceived.

 

[RandFan]

No, if you're desperate you should make a more carefully considered decision. That saying about desperate times is one I've always considered to be misleading and ill-conceived.

In which case there would be no explorers. No pilgrims. No Pioneers. Life is about risk. When your children are suffering and there is a chance to make a better life for them you take it. It's far less dangerous than the first settlers, pilgrims, pioneers. We honor them but the brown people, well, many would prefer to see them as stupid.

 

[RandFan]

"Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

Don't be stupid. Stay where you are, especially if you are brown. Unless of course you are Cuban. For all other non anglo saxons, it's just not worth the risk.

 

[newyorkguy]

The ironic thing is, living in the Northeast I've actually known a number of people who were here illegally. In an odd sense, they're actually the kind of people we want. Most people who come here illegally, every single one I've ever known, came here for one reason: they like to work.

Plus...we (meaning most Americans) live in territory our ancestors originally stole from the native residents, anyway. Who are we to be so high-and-mighty?

 

[Minoosh]

Tell it to Ghandi. Huh, did you hear that? That was the sound of your argument made invalid.

What I hear is the sound of someone uttering a complete non sequitur and pretending it addresses a point.

These people already ditched at least one country because the situation got bad, do you really think they'd stick around here if the situation got as bad here (before you get started, yes I know the hypothetical is highly unlikely) and help us resolve it or run again? We don't need fair weather immigrants.

That's pretty profound. I'm going to have to think about it.

Finally you say something I can agree with.

Good, now we can issue the provisional visas and start the sorting process.

No, if you're desperate you should make a more carefully considered decision.

What makes you think that the immigrants have not carefully considered their options?

That saying about desperate times is one I've always considered to be misleading and ill-conceived.

I know, it's kind of a cliche. Nevertheless it applies in some circumstances. Not all are driven by desperation. Some just hope to improve their lot in life.

 

[thaiboxerken]

[qimg]http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7262/statueoflibertyt.jpg[/qimg]

"Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

Don't be stupid. Stay where you are, especially if you are brown. Unless of course you are Cuban. For all other non anglo saxons, it's just not worth the risk.

Shouldn't lady liberty be wearing a white hood?