Looking for Skeptics

[wardenclyffe]

I'm meeting skeptic's for the first time, and I came now, after 20 years, because in my opinion, it is very likely that there is good evidence worthy of an investigation. I'll not be taking a cruise ship to JR, I am only going for the UK prize money, as a way to start having the spirits investigated, identified, tested, and exposed. It isn't about money, it's about positive "Change" It's been good speaking with you all, and thanks for a few eye-openers too.

I understand it's about getting the message out and not about the money. But the money's not bad. You've already described yourself as "skint," so the money can do no harm. The other thing about the money is that if you win it by demonstrating that this is a real paranormal phenomenon, everyone will become very interested in what the spirits have to say. The money represents far more than just money. It represents that this phenomenon was important and real enough to win the money. It will give you and the spirits the power to get people to listen.

This can only happen if the spirits are cooperative and want to be heard and want to be helpful to you. If they are not, then you are kinda stuck.

Ward

 

[jsfisher]

I'm meeting skeptic's for the first time, and I came now, after 20 years, because in my opinion, it is very likely that there is good evidence worthy of an investigation. I'll not be taking a cruise ship to JR, I am only going for the UK prize money, as a way to start having the spirits investigated, identified, tested, and exposed. It isn't about money, it's about positive "Change" It's been good speaking with you all, and thanks for a few eye-openers too.

flaccon,
I have a very serious question. You come up with a specific, testable claim and then you and the UK group agree on a protocol for testing your claim. All is good, but now the serious question: What if you fail?

So many people before you, confident in their abilities have come up with a specific claim, agreed on a test protocol, and failed. Most of them have been as least as sincere in their beliefs as you, but they have still failed.

If you fail, then what?

Will you reconsider your beliefs in light of the possible explanations provided here, or will you press on regardless, ignoring the evidence?

And for symmetry sake, let me answer the flip question. Let's say you pass. I will admit I will be shocked and amazed were you to pass, but in response I would carefully evaluate the protocol and reconsider my held beliefs. Can you say the same for the reverse situation?

 

[Mojo]

What does "price varies according to postcodes" mean?

 

[Cassidy]

But that's not really your claim is it?

Your website is full of unsubstantiated and yet testable claims and although you give a passing reference to some nonsense that Edison (reportedly) said, to claim that a pretend machine can pick up communication from an as yet unproven entity is hardly a claim worth discussing. I could pretend as easily that if there were a machine that could catch bigfoot, I'd catch myself a bigfoot or if there were a machine that sprayed rainbows to make them solid, I'd find the leprechaun's pot of gold.

In 1920 when Edison first talked about the possibility of such a machine, electricity was still a new technology and the tools available to him were basic in relation to what we have available today and you claim to be using some of today's tools (which will be several magnitudes more sensitive and accurate than those available in 1920) to make your spirit recordings. Why when pressed, does your claim revert back to relying on a hundred year old machine that does not exist?

What would be a help would be for you to list the makes and models of all the equipment you use and outline exactly how you set it up and the process you use to get your results.

Interesting thanks. Many claims yes, a claim form only requires one, and that's my "over-all" claim. Edison's claim wasn't nonsense. I don't understand why you are thinking that when "pressed" I am reverting back to relying on a 100 year old machine that doesn't exist. Pressed or not, that is my claim. I'm sure I mentioned the equipment "they" (the spirits) were manipulating. I didn't set equipment up, I tried recording the long-drawn creaks running down the walls here, and on playback I got voices, and a sentence replying to my idle threat. After stumbling upon "voices" I researched the net and found that Edison was working on such a device, yes, with basic technology. The technology required for spirits to manipulate, is basic.

 

[brodski]

Sue Lawley.

Bill Oddie

 

[Cassidy]

flaccon,
I have a very serious question. You come up with a specific, testable claim and then you and the UK group agree on a protocol for testing your claim. All is good, but now the serious question: What if you fail?

So many people before you, confident in their abilities have come up with a specific claim, agreed on a test protocol, and failed. Most of them have been as least as sincere in their beliefs as you, but they have still failed.

If you fail, then what?

Will you reconsider your beliefs in light of the possible explanations provided here, or will you press on regardless, ignoring the evidence?

And for symmetry sake, let me answer the flip question. Let's say you pass. I will admit I will be shocked and amazed were you to pass, but in response I would carefully evaluate the protocol and reconsider my held beliefs. Can you say the same for the reverse situation?

Very thought-provoking question, thanks. (need to think on this)

Edit; I don't actually think I have an ability as such. I wouldn't be the one failing, it would the spirits who would fail. After what I've witnessed, I've enough confidence to say that they will pass, enough to be considered as "actual" spirit voices trying to communicate.

I would be equally as shocked and amazed, if they failed. Reconsidering everything I have witnessed over the 20 years would be practically impossible. My eyes "saw" my ears "heard" and my brain "evaluated" every type of haunting we encountered. I had to re-evaluate everything I'd ever believed in, the day this all began.

Truth, pre 20 years ago, I held the belief that "death means death" and those who thought otherwise, we're merely creating themselves a "comfort zone"
Those who believed they had come into contact with dark/light forces, I would steer clear from, believing it to be a mental condition of some sort.

Since this latest phenomena, I've spoken with a few people who "hear voices" in their head. What they describe, is identical to what I hear emitting from the recorder. I asked them how they would feel if were possible to "record" their inner-voices, and "playback" to identify what exactly the voices were saying. I sensed their "relief" at just the thought of that possibility.

 

[Pixel42]

Edison's claim wasn't nonsense.

Edison made no claim. He simply said that IF spirits existed they'd probably find radio an easier medium through which to communicate than tilting tables etc.

I didn't set equipment up, I tried recording the long-drawn creaks running down the walls here, and on playback I got voices, and a sentence replying to my idle threat.

Which could have been audio pareidolia, a stray radio broadcast, something picked up from your neighbours baby monitor, etc etc. You have no reason at all to assume it was spirits.

After stumbling upon "voices" I researched the net and found that Edison was working on such a device, yes, with basic technology.

Then your research was faulty. There is no evidence Edison ever worked on such a device. He simply agreed in an interview that such a device might be a good way for spirits to communicate if they existed.

The technology required for spirits to manipulate, is basic.

On what do you base this assertion? There's no good reason to believe that spirits exist, let alone that they either would or could manipulate any kind of technology. It's the wildest of speculation.

 

[Cassidy]

Edison made no claim. He simply said that IF spirits existed they'd probably find radio an easier medium through which to communicate than tilting tables etc.


Which could have been audio pareidolia, a stray radio broadcast, something picked up from your neighbours baby monitor, etc etc. You have no reason at all to assume it was spirits.


Then your research was faulty. There is no evidence Edison ever worked on such a device. He simply agreed in an interview that such a device might be a good way for spirits to communicate if they existed.


On what do you base this assertion? There's no good reason to believe that spirits exist, let alone that they either would or could manipulate any kind of technology. It's the wildest of speculation.[/QUOTE


It's likely, being an inventor, that Edison did work on such a device, but there is no evidence to this, which is irrelevant, the gist is there, and I'm sure Edison made certain claims. Whatever it was he was suggesting/claiming, he was correct.

Do you think I heard the first recording and immediately thought "spirits" ? Immediately thought "Who the F* was that" It had to be interference, but scrutinising the recording, their words referred to the here-and-now. Even then I left it well alone for 2 years, knowing they were there and wanting communication. One can only ignore something for so long, then one has to investigate.

Interference, possible monitors and neighbours voices, Hackers, Stray radio broadcast, all investigated and eliminated by myself. Hence my next step, testing it out with other people. That has also proved successful. So now I must to the next step, it's not about prize money.
.

 

[zooterkin]

Sorry I'll try that again.. I pressed rec'd (12 secs) and pressed stop. I asked them a question, and then pressed playback.
Instead of, Asking the question then pressing record. Yes, I think there's around 3000 recordings (short 12/15 secs) Most are personal requests for a Bishop. They request people I've never heard of.

Let me just see if I've got this straight:

You record for 12 seconds, then stop. Then you ask a question. Then you playback what you recorded before you asked the question, and you hear an answer?

So you're saying that not only can the dead talk to us via EVP, but they can also see into the future to know what question you're going to ask?

 

[Pixel42]

It's likely, being an inventor, that Edison did work on such a device, but there is no evidence to this, which is irrelevant, the gist is there, and I'm sure Edison made certain claims. Whatever it was he was suggesting/claiming, he was correct.

Edison made an offhand comment in an interview, and generations of believers have blown it up out of all proportion. That's the real gist.

Interference, possible monitors and neighbours voices, Hackers, Stray radio broadcast, all investigated and eliminated by myself.

How?

Hence my next step, testing it out with other people. That has also proved successful.

All you've shown is that whatever is convincing you is also convincing other people. That doesn't make it spirits. Lots of people have been convinced of EVP, none have ever produced evidence of spirits.

So now I must to the next step

Which is?

 

[Cassidy]

Non sequitur.

Not at all, I prefer to read and re-read, until I understand it, and then reply.

 

[Cassidy]

Nonsense goes through one stage: ridicule.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Galileo_gambit

 

[Mojo]

Not at all, I prefer to read and re-read, until I understand it, and then reply.

No, the non sequitur is in your statement that you cannot believe that paredolia is the answer because you can recognise voices in the sounds.

That is precisely what paredolia is.

 

[Cassidy]

Edison made an offhand comment in an interview, and generations of believers have blown it up out of all proportion. That's the real gist.


How?


All you've shown is that whatever is convincing you is also convincing other people. That doesn't make it spirits. Lots of people have been convinced of EVP, none have ever produced evidence of spirits.


Which is?

No, that is the gist of a sceptic. Nothing was blown up, it's just good reference from a genius.

Next step is to discuss with open-minded people, followed by believer's. Each group will hold a different view point, and I believe it is likely that the majority of all groups, will not believe much of the content of my claim.
Final step is the proper hands-on investigation by such organisations as ASKE. It holds the real answers, all I really am is a "witness" with evidence that is worthy of investigating.

 

[Mojo]

No, that is the gist of a sceptic. Nothing was blown up, it's just good reference from a genius.

Can you provide an actual source for Edison believing in it other than the isolated comment in an interview, responding to a leading question?

 

[Pixel42]

that is the gist of a sceptic.

A sceptic being someone who actually looks at the evidence and draws only those conclusions which it supports, yes.

Nothing was blown up

You yourself asserted that Edison made claims and was working on a device, based solely on a couple of sentences in an interview which support neither assertion. If you don't consider that blowing something up, it's clear to see why you're so easily convinced by pareidolia.

Final step is the proper hands-on investigation by such organisations as ASKE. It holds the real answers, all I really am is a "witness" with evidence that is worthy of investigating.

You do understand that such investigations have already been done?

Most claimants for the MDC and similar prizes never think to do a dry run of the sort of test protocol organisations such as ASKE will require. Not even after they've agreed to the protocol does it occur to them to first try it quietly by themselves, they are so confident they are right because of the (wholely inadequate) evidence that has convinced them but would never convince anyone who understands how easily our perceptions can be fooled.

Here's the sort of test protocol ASKE will require, you can try it yourself right now.

1. Take an ordinary pack of cards, and a sheet of paper with the numbers 1 to 52 listed on it.

2. Shuffle the pack, select a card, and place it face up behind a barrier (a pile of books will do) without looking at it

3. Press record on your recorder and then stop

4. Ask "what colour is the card?"

5. Playback the recording and see whether you can identify the words 'black' or 'red' in what you're hearing. If you can put the colour down against the number 1, if not, write "unclear"

6. Repeat 1-5 for as many cards as you can before getting fed up with it. Make sure you don't look at any of the cards (including previous ones) as you put each one on the pile behind the barrier

7. Take the pile of cards from behind the barrier, turn it over, look at each card in turn, and write down what colour each was next to the colour you thought it was

On average you would expect to have guessed right for about half the cards. If you have actually got the right answer for at least two-thirds of the cards it's worth applying to ASKE. If not, don't waste your time or theirs.

ETA: Personally I'd reverse 3 and 4, but if that's really the way you've always done it then do it that way.

 

[Agatha]

I had a good look at your website, flaccon, and everything there can be explained by pareidolia.

You really should put "for entertainment purposes only" onto the pages offering readings, particularly as you claim healings, otherwise you may find yourself breaking the law in the UK.

You seem to have had a very troubled past and I am sure that what you experience in hearing voices in the recordings and finding faces in blood stains is very real to you. However, everything you've talked about here and on your website can be explained by pareidolia (and some symptoms of mental illness). I am not suggesting you have a mental illness, it's just that some things that you have experienced are also experienced by those with diagnosed mental illnesses, and it's generally in the 'rules' of the testing organisations that mental illness is ruled out.

 

[Cassidy]

I understand it's about getting the message out and not about the money. But the money's not bad. You've already described yourself as "skint," so the money can do no harm. The other thing about the money is that if you win it by demonstrating that this is a real paranormal phenomenon, everyone will become very interested in what the spirits have to say. The money represents far more than just money. It represents that this phenomenon was important and real enough to win the money. It will give you and the spirits the power to get people to listen.

This can only happen if the spirits are cooperative and want to be heard and want to be helpful to you. If they are not, then you are kinda stuck.

Ward

Skint, but I can't complain. A warm bed and clean food and water, any more than that is a bonus. The spirits are keen to cooperate with outsiders, to the best of their ability. That's their intention. They tell me I need an education I do agree, it's too complicated for me to understand, but their words are clear enough to understand that they mean business.
Any possible prize money, apart from a wage, has to go towards Charity.

 

[Stray Cat]

Interesting thanks. Many claims yes, a claim form only requires one, and that's my "over-all" claim. Edison's claim wasn't nonsense.

My reference to what Edison said and "nonsense" was more about how it's been interpreted by believers over the decades as I signified by the addition of the word "reportedly" in parenthesis. Of course, if you can actually develop a test that provides evidence that Edison was correct, I will no longer call it nonsense, until you do that, nonsense is the best word for it because what you claim contains no sense.

I don't understand why you are thinking that when "pressed" I am reverting back to relying on a 100 year old machine that doesn't exist. Pressed or not, that is my claim.

It's just the way you phrased your claim relying on something said nearly 100 years ago while at the same time making a multitude of claims that you can do what Edison suggested in the here and now. Your claim is really that you can do it and has nothing to do with Edison or his non existent machine. It is entirely to do with you and the equipment you use to do it today. Equipment and methods that can be tested as opposed to equipment that doesn't exist.

I'm sure I mentioned the equipment "they" (the spirits) were manipulating.

You mentioned it yes, you didn't say exactly what it was.
There are so many different types of recording devices, microphones, amplifiers and speakers all of which have their own characteristics both audiably and electronically.
For instance, here in the spare room which I use for a recording studio, I have half a dozen different types of microphone, two different mixing desks, I used to record onto three different types of media (until I sold the Fostex R8 tape machine), the signal goes through one of two amps (a domestic amp or a studio reference amp) and that signal is then redirected to three different types of speaker.

If I'm having a problem getting a sound I want or indeed getting rid of a frequency I don't want, it is essential to know exactly which route the signal is going so I can sort it out. If I need to speak to someone else about it, it is essential that they know exactly what equipment the signal is going through, otherwise they are simply stabbing in the dark.

This is why it is essential that you list the make and model of all the equipment you are using and describe in detail as clearly as possible the method you are using to get your results. If you don't do this, we are just stabbing in the dark.

I didn't set equipment up, I tried recording the long-drawn creaks running down the walls here, and on playback I got voices, and a sentence replying to my idle threat.

Sorry, I'm trying to be as clear as possible. When I say you set equipment up, I'm asking you what equipment you use and to describe exactly how you use it. The simple act of pluging in a recording machine and switching it on and pointing a microphone is "setting equipment up". I'm not suggesting you had to "set it up" in some underhand or special way.

After stumbling upon "voices" I researched the net and found that Edison was working on such a device, yes, with basic technology. The technology required for spirits to manipulate, is basic.

Edison was not working on such a device, or at the very least, there is absolutely no evidence that such a device ever existed. Bearing in mind the multitude of devices he successfully developed that our homes became filled with, the thousand plus detailed patents that he filed with detailed technical drawings and the files and files of his designs and ideas that are in existence, how or why would it only be this particular machine which was totally absent by evidence?
Why do you cling to this vague notion while ignoring the decades of scientific research backed up by verifiable evidence that shows a total lack of evidence for the existence of spirits?

 

[Cassidy]

Can you provide an actual source for Edison believing in it other than the isolated comment in an interview, responding to a leading question?

I would say its likely that Edison, being an Inventor and genius, would have attempted some workings towards his claim/suggestion.

I don't think Edison said he believed or otherwise, did he? He used the word "if" "If personalities existed.." His comments tend to lean towards some possibility, I would suggest his personal belief of spirits was "open minded"