Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[xtifr]

Thanks for the summary

(But I never, not for a second, contemplated that Rossi might have found a gamma-free, radiocativity-free process with usable heat release)

Actually, it sounds like he has found a gamma-free, radioactivity-free process with usable heat release. It's called mains power. I found it too. It's right there in my wall, powering the computer I'm using to type this.

What it's not is fusion. Or free. But it is cold compared to actual fusion, so he sort of got one part right.

 

[Aepervius]

• setting up fakey-looking public demos showing your device puffing steam
• setting up fakey-looking "scientific" demos in which your handpicked engineer buddies videotape your already-running "demo" and publish photos on the arXiv
• writing a blog titled like an academic journal about your R&D process
• filing a fraudulent patent application
• "misdirecting your enemies". Seriously, who does this?

[*]"pretend to add a self destruction technology to a reactor getting hot".

 

[Horatius]

Using nuclear physics, we know what a (Ni + p) system looks like. If you get a nickel nucleus anywhere within a few femtometers of a proton or neutron, the result is a copper nucleus in a highly excited state. You can pretty much write down the wavefunction for this---it's called a "halo" state. The halo states are unstable and rapidly emit---you guessed it---easily-detectable gamma rays.

That's what Rossi has to fudge away. Even if he had a chemical catalyst that magically shepherded protons past the fusion barrier, he'd have to have another catalyst that modified the nuclear physics of what happens next.

How inconvenient, right? All of the laws of physics that *would* make Rossi's device verifiable---radioactivity, gamma emission, ability to heat up using non-trade-secret power supplies, or ability to maintain heat after the resistors are unplugged---have *all* gone wrong, all at the same time. What a coincidence.

Ah, but some clever types have figured out that, since these things don't emit gamma radiation, they must also have invented a way of reducing gamma ray emissions!

Have you seen US Patent 8 114 257?

US 8114257 B2
Abstract

An electrolytic cell and a method for accelerating the reduction of gamma ray emissions from a radioactive substance. The cell includes a non-conductive housing and a conductive end member sealingly positioned in and extending from each open end of the housing. Gamma ray emitting material such as powder, granules or gases in an admixture with palladium black powder or particles are closely packed into the chamber. A longitudinal gas passage extends through each end member in gas communication with the chamber. Each gas passage is sealably closeable, one gas passage being connectable to a source of pressurized hydrogen or deuterium gas deliverable under pressure into the chamber to charge the catalytic particles. A distal end of each end member is connected to an electric power source wherein, when electric current flows through the chamber, the gamma ray emission count decays at an abnormally high rate.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

Ah, but some clever types have figured out that, since these things don't emit gamma radiation, they must also have invented a way of reducing gamma ray emissions!

Have you seen US Patent 8 114 257?

Sufferin' succotash! Do you realize what we have here?

"It is therefore an object of this invention to provide a gaseous electrolyte electrolytic cell for accelerating the decay of radioactive material"

So, if you put enough current through the cell you can turn moderately radioactive material into a nuke - or at least a dirty bomb.

Who says science can't be fun?

 

[Horatius]

Sufferin' succotash! Do you realize what we have here?

"It is therefore an object of this invention to provide a gaseous electrolyte electrolytic cell for accelerating the decay of radioactive material"

So, if you put enough current through the cell you can turn moderately radioactive material into a nuke - or at least a dirty bomb.

Who says science can't be fun?

Yes, I quite liked their confusion over "shortening half-lives" vs. "decreasing radiation output".

It's almost as if they were just pulling it out of their asses.

 

[pteridine]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers. You have all concluded that since you can't explain it or don't like the possibility, it can't be happening. Many on this board are the self-appointed final arbiters of what is possible and what is not possible and there is a mob mentality of attacking that which you do not understand and those that point out that you don't know what you don't know. Most amusing. You say that there can be no fusion [maybe there isn't] without 500+kev gamma. Rossi says that there is low-level gamma and neutrons. A more measured commentary is a draft google document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/mobilebasic?pli=1
This shows points and counterpoints. While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either. A few of those were memorably ludicrous such as the 30kW of beamed microwave radiation that must have been powering an earlier version of the ECat. "Guiseppe, si sta facendo caldo qui." Caldo, indeed.
Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

 

[Craig B]

... This shows points and counterpoints. While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either.

It is for R and D to prove their cases. Why haven't they? They claim to have the magic machines. I claim they don't. So it is question either of delusion, incompetence or fraud. Of these, fraud is vastly the most probable hypothesis. And I will eat their crow with pleasure as soon as they serve it up. What's keeping them?

 

[Yevgen Barsukov]

I've found couple of simple demonstrations which show how easily power measurements can be faked and they also may hint at Rossi's secret ingredient!

Ah, this is delicious!! The best is how everybody are jumping into
discussions about how he is doing it, with amazingly clueless ideas,
while missing classical "fool the clamp" scheme here:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2013/05/Power-Magic-1-600x515.jpeg

Anyway, as an antidote to Rossi this is just perfect! All the fanboys have
to see this...

Regards,
Yevgen

 

[phunk]

Ah, this is delicious!! The best is how everybody are jumping into
discussions about how he is doing it, with amazingly clueless ideas,
while missing classical "fool the clamp" scheme here:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/files/2013/05/Power-Magic-1-600x515.jpeg

Anyway, as an antidote to Rossi this is just perfect! All the fanboys have
to see this...

Regards,
Yevgen

Yup. You can even see the hidden wire in the videos.

 

[Craig B]

Yup. You can even see the hidden wire in the videos.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1886151a65a0f1e4d5.jpg[/qimg]

You sure that's it? Couldn't they have done a better job of hiding it? Rossi's had months, or up to about 2 years in fact, to set up his machine. He's a most ingenious man, as was shown by the Petroldragon affair. Is he going to make a blunder like that?

 

[tsig]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers. You have all concluded that since you can't explain it or don't like the possibility, it can't be happening. Many on this board are the self-appointed final arbiters of what is possible and what is not possible and there is a mob mentality of attacking that which you do not understand and those that point out that you don't know what you don't know. Most amusing. You say that there can be no fusion [maybe there isn't] without 500+kev gamma. Rossi says that there is low-level gamma and neutrons. A more measured commentary is a draft google document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/mobilebasic?pli=1
This shows points and counterpoints. While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either. A few of those were memorably ludicrous such as the 30kW of beamed microwave radiation that must have been powering an earlier version of the ECat. "Guiseppe, si sta facendo caldo qui." Caldo, indeed.
Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

He's using electricity to produce heat with resistance heaters. It's about as complicated as an electric oven.

 

[bruto]

You sure that's it? Couldn't they have done a better job of hiding it? Rossi's had months, or up to about 2 years in fact, to set up his machine. He's a most ingenious man, as was shown by the Petroldragon affair. Is he going to make a blunder like that?

If people keep giving him money and the Pteridines of this world keep cutting him slack, why sweat a blunder?

 

[Kid Eager]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers. You have all concluded that since you can't explain it or don't like the possibility, it can't be happening. Many on this board are the self-appointed final arbiters of what is possible and what is not possible and there is a mob mentality of attacking that which you do not understand and those that point out that you don't know what you don't know. Most amusing. You say that there can be no fusion [maybe there isn't] without 500+kev gamma. Rossi says that there is low-level gamma and neutrons. A more measured commentary is a draft google document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/mobilebasic?pli=1
This shows points and counterpoints. While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either. A few of those were memorably ludicrous such as the 30kW of beamed microwave radiation that must have been powering an earlier version of the ECat. "Guiseppe, si sta facendo caldo qui." Caldo, indeed.
Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

It's good that you acknowledge it was a demonstration, not an experiment. In a *demonstration* controlled by a party with a vested interest, the ability of observers to discern anything other than what the demonstrator wants them to see should hardly be surprising.

Meanwhile, I look forward to experiments that test the claim.

 

[ben m]

Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

I'm going through my spam filter and considering deleting the emails from the Ghanaian probate lawyer, the Malian widow, the South African parliamentarian, the Chinese banker, the wealthy Brazilian orphan, the Thai oil magnate's executor. Should I hold off? I haven't proven that they're frauds, so I'd hate to have to "eat crow" if I accidentally turn down these easy millions of dollars. I patiently await your advice.

 

[Reality Check]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers.

No one is claiming fraud from the various observers.
There is evidence of their incompetence , e.g. they were fooled by Rossi both in his original demonstrations and in this "experiment". Reading the paper reveals more incompetence.

We have all concluded that since there is the evidence for anomalous heat is invalid that it cannot be happening.
The physics tells us that the explanations given for the production of the non-existent heat are wrong.

You say that there can be no fusion [maybe there isn't] without 500+kev gamma. Rossi says that there is low-level gamma and neutrons. A more measured commentary is a draft google document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/mobilebasic?pli=1

Wow a new crackpot tactic - argument by Google document !
The physics is that Rossi's proposed mechanism (Ni + H -> Cu) will produce electrons and positrons and these will always produce 511 keV photons.

pteridine, where is Rossi's published description of the detection of these "lower frequency gammas (< 100 keV)"?
What instruments did he use to detect the gamma rays?
Where did you get the detection of neutrons from?

 

[Horatius]

Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

Next Verse, same as the First!

Seriously:

Andrea Rossi is an inventor and engineer. He does not know why the reaction works-- he only knows that excess heat is released. Being a practical experimenter, when he had built a working model he used it to heat three rooms in his facility when he owned EON, SRL where he made biodiesel powered gen sets.
The unit ran for an entire heating season on a single charge and this ruled out chemical reactions. At this point the physics is speculative but many are theorizing about possibilities. The many experiments pointing toward the reality of LENR are slowly converging and I expect that over the next few years, key aspects of the process will be understood and this will become an impoprtant energy source.

You've been telling us to just wait for well over two years now. We're no closer to having a real, demonstrably working device now than we were when you first posted this. How long will you "wait and see" before you conclude he's full of ****? You've been asked this before, and you really need to give this question some serious consideration.

Even if you believe that some sort of "cold fusion"/"LENR" reaction is possible in theory, at some point, you simply have to accept that this particular attempt is complete ********, right? Right?


Wait, what am I saying?

Well, he's probably been paying attention to things in this field (various free energy scams), and has noticed that, no matter what you promise, and no matter how obviously you fail to live up to those promises, there will always be someone willing to invest in your particular nonsense scheme.

Blacklight Power and Steorn have been making money for years, decades no less in BL's case, on the basis of BS promises just like this one. Why would he expect it to be any different for him?

...of course you'll never admit it's ********.


Over two years on, and the same old same old just keeps spinning around.


See you in two more years?

 

[pteridine]

I don't argue by Google document; I use it as an example of a more measured response. This seems to be something that the scientists on this board don't seem to be able to come to grips with.
Have you ever considered that Rossi may have found something and misnamed it? That his theory, and those of many others, might not be correct?

 

[pteridine]

Others have proven that they are frauds. I suggest that you provide your bank account numbers, Ben, and test it again.

 

[Horatius]

Have you ever considered that Rossi may have found something and misnamed it? That his theory, and those of many others, might not be correct?

Yes, I've considered it:

Yes, the P&F type cold fusion has largely gone out of style. I'd like to get a real chemist to look into some of these things though, as I've noticed that this guy isn't the only one using a nickel based device. The Blacklight Power guys have been pushing something involving "Raney Nickel" as the latest version of their claims.

I have a suspicion that what these guys have really discovered is some novel chemistry, that is energetic enough to create these "anomalous" heat effects, but which isn't actually sustainable enough to be a useful energy source. So, they've decided to use it as the center piece of their scam, until someone else finally figures it out. It would take a real chemist doing real research to prove this, however.

...but notice that, in over two years, they haven't shown this to be true, either.

 

[Reality Check]

I don't argue by Google document; I use it as an example of a more measured response.

It is not a "more measured" response - it is merely longer. The document does mention the obvious flaws with all LENR devices, e.g. lack of gamma rays and neutrons. It does not go into depth about the flaws of Rossi's device as listed in this thread.

The conclusion of the document is ridiculous since it lauds the so-called third-party validation of Rossi's device. If the author was knowledgeable enough to judge the competence of the paper then they would have known that the experiment was at the level of a quite badly done undergraduate project. The fact that the author cannot see this casts doubts on the rest of the document.
For that matter - just who is the author? If you are going to cite a credible author then it should be easy to find out whether they are credible.

The scientists on this board know how to evaluate the science and see that there is none in Rossi's demonstrations.

We have considered that he may have found something. What he has found is a way to fool other people (and perhaps himself) into believing that his device works.
There is no evidence that his device is anything more then a big kettle producing the amount of steam that is expected.

Rossi's theory is physically impossible. To fuse Ni and H you need pressures and temperatures found in stars. Fantasizing about a magic ingredient that allows the fusion ignores the consequences of that fusion which are ruled out by his own measurements :

• No 511 keV photons.
• No neutrons.
• No change in Ni isotope abundance form the natural abundance.
• No change in Cu isotope abundance form the natural abundance.