Sheriff Joe Arapio slapped down by judge.

[RandFan]

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/ausador/LolWut.jpg​

Explanation, kind sir.

Where is the fallacy in pointing out that there is a legitimate reason for being concerned about illegal immigration?

I don't accept the premise that if my next door neighbor came to this country illegally he or she is by extension a criminal.

I lived next door to a former gang banger. I got a long great with him and his family. He wasn't in America illegally. I have actually worked along side illegals. Being illegal didn't make them want to kill me or mug me or commit crime just because they were or are here legally.

Perhaps if you didn't generalize and stereotype we could have a discussion.

 

[Mudcat]

I don't accept the premise that if my next door neighbor came to this country illegally he or she is by extension a criminal.

Perhaps if you didn't generalize and stereotype we could have a discussion.

Perhaps you need to level up your reading comprehension skills, then.

I never once said that being here illegally automatically makes one a criminal, although technically it does. It is, however, more likely that a criminal is here illegally.

Wouldn't you agree with that? Would you agree that we would want to weed out criminals from law abiding immigrants? Would you agree that being here illegally would make that harder?

You tell me what part of this is any way a generalization or a stereotype.

 

[cwalner]

Perhaps you need to level up your reading comprehension skills, then.

I never once said that being here illegally automatically makes one a criminal, although technically it does. It is, however, more likely that a criminal is here illegally.

Wouldn't you agree with that? Would you agree that we would want to weed out criminals from law abiding immigrants? Would you agree that being here illegally would make that harder?

You tell me what part of this is any way a generalization or a stereotype.

I actually disagree with that assessment. Most criminal justice organizations, when looking for a criminal suspect, tend to put extra attention on transportation routes assuming the suspect intends to flee. Therefore, I would think that they would be more likely to be found and prevented from emigrating than somebody who is just looking for more opportunity to make a better life. As a result I would expect those that successfully immigrate to the US illegally to be actually less likely to have been criminals before the immigrated.

As for your other points, the current federal immigration policy does focus on weeding out criminals, in that it focuses deportation efforts on those convicted of crimes here in the US. For illegals, we don't need three strike laws, we have, in effect, one strike laws. Commit a crime, be deported once your sentence is served.

 

[RandFan]

Perhaps you need to level up your reading comprehension skills, then.

No. Your words stand. Instead of re-writing what you wrote you could have simply copied and pasted. That way I couldn't accuse you of editing your remarks to make them more palatable. This is what you actually wrote:

Illegals should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law because there is no way to insure that they aren't criminal scum or even worse...

Your logic is that anyone here illegally is "criminal scum" because they can't prove otherwise. There's a whole entire world of presumption and fallacy in there. To explain the racial disparity of prison populations an old associate of my father used to say, "that's because blacks commit more crime".

So, on top of innocent until proven guilty it should be presumed that such individuals, statistically, are more likely to break other crimes than people who come here for legal reasons. Any evidence of that?

 

[The Fallen Serpent]

That begs the question. I am going to limit the question to property and violent crimes though feel free to expand to all crimes if your worry is about traffic violations, tax crimes, ect. Are illegal immigrants more likely to have been involved with property and violent crimes prior to immigrating to the US? I have not seen an answer to that one. By and large, studies are about if illegal immigrants are once in the US committing property or violent crimes at a higher rate than legal immigrants or citizens. Such studies indicate that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit property or violent crimes out of fear of coming into contact with authorities and being deported. Prison populations in the US are under represented by illegal immigrants.

Also, your question seems to not recognize that illegal immigrants are often visa overstays. Since the mid 90s there was a shift to a majority of illegal immigrants are those who trespassed into the country, visa overstays still account for 40% to 45% of illegal immigrants in the US.

 

[newyorkguy]

<snip>
Would you agree that we would want to weed out criminals from law abiding immigrants?

I don't understand how you can "weed out" the criminal immigrants from the law abiding immigrants without violating the Fourth Amendment.

In my opinion, based on people I know in law enforcement and discussions we've had, this is the root problem. Law enforcement is sometimes asked to do things -- like weed out the bad immigrants from the good -- that are impossible to do unless you violate the Constitution. So what the political process does is put enormous pressure on the leadership in law enforcement to figure out a way to do it. When there really is no way.

Thus you get a Joe Arapio.

Now in Arizona the Border Patrol does stops thirty miles from the border. I've seen news clips where the first thing they ask the driver is, "Are you an American citizen?" Some citizens resent being stopped by the police and questioned as to their citizenship. But this is already established under law, that the police have the right to "search" for illegal immigrants.

This is exactly what civil liberty advocates warn against. Once you can violate the unpopular guy's rights, once you establish that, sooner or later it can be used against everybody.

 

[RandFan]

I don't understand how you can "weed out" the criminal immigrants from the law abiding immigrants without violating the Fourth Amendment.

In my opinion, based on people I know in law enforcement and discussions we've had, this is the root problem. Law enforcement is sometimes asked to do things -- like weed out the bad immigrants from the good -- that are impossible to do unless you violate the Constitution. So what the political process does is put enormous pressure on the leadership in law enforcement to figure out a way to do it. When there really is no way.

Thus you get a Joe Arapio.

Now in Arizona the Border Patrol does stops thirty miles from the border. I've seen news clips where the first thing they ask the driver is, "Are you an American citizen?" Some citizens resent being stopped by the police and questioned as to their citizenship. But this is already established under law, that the police have the right to "search" for illegal immigrants.

This is exactly what civil liberty advocates warn against. Once you can violate the unpopular guy's rights, once you establish that, sooner or later it can be used against everybody.

Let's not forget that deportations are up.

 

[newyorkguy]

I don't have a citation for it, but on a recent news show they said since 2000 the US has already deported more people than in all of the 20th century.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I don't have a citation for it, but on a recent news show they said since 2000 the US has already deported more people than in all of the 20th century.

Yet, if you listen to the echo chamber on the right, there are more illegal immigrants coming in than ever before....

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What does a Latino look like?

Frito Bandito

 

[RandFan]

Without any distinguishing features, Latinos are impossible to spot from Americans with white Europeans heritage.

How could a police officer tell the difference between white Anglo Saxons from Latinos. I just don't get it.

 

[newyorkguy]

As hard as this may be to believe, American citizens -- based solely on their appearance -- have been deported to Mexico as well.

There was an article about one man in a recent issue of the New Yorker. He was incarcerated in a North Carolina jail and was subjected to a routine interview by INS. The agent, for some reason (and she's since been promoted) recorded his citizenship as "Mexican." Since he had no immigration documents (he was a US citizen!) he was flagged for deportation. And he was deported.

The sad thing is, this was a man with a minor criminal record, some emotional issues and limited intelligence. He was not well-equipped to navigate the justice system.

He said he survived in Mexico, by doing odd jobs and, though he doesn't speak Spanish, the kindness of Mexicans who gave him food and shelter. Incredibly while there, he was picked up by Mexican police and deported. To Guatemala! Fortunately Guatemala refused to accept him and sent him right back to Mexico.

Eventually he went to a US consulate in Mexico and they were able to trace his identity. He was then returned to the US.

His family was waiting for him at the airport in Charlotte North Carolina. Unfortunately, he was removed from the flight by INS agents when it landed in Atlanta. He had no passport and they didn't believe his story. He was within hours of being returned to Mexico when his brother, a member of the US Army, grew suspicious when the flight came into Charlotte, his brother wasn't on it and no one seemed to know why.

Because he was military he was treated very cordially by INS and DHS agents at the Charlotte airport and they agreed to look into it and then were able to intervene.

It's getting crazy!

 

[fuelair]

So you are appealing to emotion to stereotype and demonize an entire group of people?

Well of course they are - and it's all Obama's fault too!!!!!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I never once said that being here illegally automatically makes one a criminal, although technically it does.

Technically, it does not.

People are not subject to criminal prosecution for being in the U.S. as undocumented aliens. They are subject to removal, nothing more.

Funny you say it like this, because the current federal policy focuses its enforcement efforts on the criminal illegal aliens. This is the policy some people characterize as the federal government not enforcing its laws, even though this policy has resulted in record number of removals. Also, it has removed the people whose presence is a more serious problem--criminals.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

As hard as this may be to believe, American citizens -- based solely on their appearance -- have been deported to Mexico as well.

Wow!

That was the premise of a movie comedy--Cheech Marin's Born in East L.A. I had no idea it really happened!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Without any distinguishing features, Latinos are impossible to spot from Americans with white Europeans heritage.

True. But this fact doesn't argue that people don't practice prejudice based on the assumption that they can tell Latin-Americans from European-Americans.

Indeed, there are African Americans who can't be distinguished by appearance from European-Americans. It doesn't mean there isn't still racism.

ETA: Racial and ethnic prejudice isn't rational. The absence of a rational basis for it should come as no surprise.

 

[RandFan]

The notion that the police can't find people who are of Mexican, central America and Latin American decent to ask them for papers is probably the most pathetic argument I've ever heard. As if no person of such extraction has ever been hassled by the police just because of the way the looked.

I guess the charges in a civil court and Arapio, Americas toughest sheriff was railroaded. Then again he just might be a giant clown. He might harass brown people on the assumption that they have done something criminal. He might make decisions based on looks and the color of people's skin. Or the judge is a liar and Arapio never harassed people based on superficial characteristics.

My guess is that in AZ, innocent until proven guilty is a privilege reserved by white people.

 

[Checkmite]

LOL, this thread is hilarious. Somebody is actually going to the effort of trying to invalidate the court's findings because "latino is not a race"? Seriously? That's awesome.

Well hey, perfectly fine; if selecting out latinos especially for traffic stops, citizenship checks, and other law enforcement actions doesn't count as "racial profiling", then what is the correct term? Whatever the term is, that's what Arpaio's guilty of. And it's still just as wrong, as Arpaio and his department deserve the same derision.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think it's worse than that, Checkmite.. it's as if someone is trying to convince us that racism isn't real because there are no such things as races.

 

[beren]

So to you - and apparently to quite a few people in Arizona - "democracy in action" means pissing on the very concepts that your nation was built on?

Nope, not even remotely what I said.

You asked how he kept his position. The answer is democracy. He keeps getting elected. This points to the greatest weakness of democracy- that idiots vote.