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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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It has been said before but it seems to me that whether Amanda was wholly implicated or just present at the scene, then after her breakdown in the interrogation (naming Patrick and putting herself at the scene) it would have been fairly easy to break her down a bit more and get some pertinent details about the whole scenario. Unless someone reminds me otherwise it appears that anything else Amanda may have said was absolutely useless in recreating the crime scene, and really, if you get someone to confess to have been there at the time it seems wholly negligent not to pursue this line of questioning (videoed of course).


Thats something that always struck me as strange about this case. In other cases I've followed when someone breaks down or makes a deal, they tell what happened in a way that makes sense and matches the evidence.

IIRC, none of the three have done this. The only thing I've heard is what proved to be wrong when Amanda accused Patrick and the vague statements from Rudy.

Seems invariably in crimes where there are multiple people involved, its a race to who can crack first and get the best deal. Everyone is looking out for themselves, even stone faced mobsters will turn coat when the writing is on the wall. I can't believe this hasn't occurred if they are all guilty.
 
Thanks for clearing up that up especially the language point. I really would want to see Guede in cross examination.


you and me both, I'm still pissed at the farce that occurred the day Rudy was in court
 
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Bill try to imagine what co-mingled means in a random spot in another girls room.
I can answer that. Evidence-wise it is meaningless because it is to be expected.
I was about to say this....

... the issue is not what it means to me, the issue is what it means to crime scene investigators. So far only the Perugian authorities as well as some internet bloggers seem to think it means something sinister forensically.

Every other investigator in the world says, "So? They lived in the same place, and both Filomena and Amanda were allowed to run free in the cottage in the early afternoon of the 2nd, rendering the cottage (outside of Meredith's room) virtually useless forensically."

John Douglas seems to have come to this conclusion, as has Bruce Budowle of the University of North Texas Health Science Center, the FBI's former top geneticist and an authority on DNA contamination and the hazards of interpreting low-content DNA samples (which is another issue).

So do not ask me to comment. Ask me to cite authorities. Otherwise it is just two bloggers trying to best one another.
 
He has a right of silence, like anyone, so maybe it wouldn't be much fun.


Didn't he selectively answer questions and have Mignini read a statement for him? Granted, I was not able to observe it live and who knows how much was lost in translation, but it struck me as strange as hell.

I guess that's normal? Maybe its just a US thing but seems like defendants either take the stand or they don't.
 
Machiavelli - this is your "clarificationl" that you claimed means that you never said Guede was Amanda's pimp.


Originally Posted by Machiavelli said:
No, I said Amanda's cell phone was found in the hands of some drug dealers, who also had this habit of giving drug in exchange of sex. And I know this practice is extremely frequent among many student girls who are normally not prostitutes. I also consider that this scenario is plausible with regard Amanda Knox - because of her age, location, people she attended, her habit of drug use and her emphasis on casual sex - and I think it is totally logical to consider it as a plausible scenario.

About her possible relation with Guede, I want to point out the following elements: Guede attended the same house where she lived; he was a close friend of a young man who lived downstaris; he used to spend his time in the basketball court which is on the route between her daily walk between home and language school back and forth every day; the basketball court is only 90 mters from Amanda's hose door and 60 meters from where she had university classes; they admitted of knowing each other, they had met more than once in more than one place; Guede was sexually attracted by Amanda, he liked her a lot (he was not interested in Meredith); Guede and Amanda atnded the same pubs and the same places in the city; Amanda wrote in her MySpace page that on her arrival in Perugia, in a bar near the University of Foreigners she met the "most beautiful black man" she had ever seen, and they promised to each other they would meet again as she would come back from Germany (black men attending bars in via Garibaldi are not so many; and Knox never revealed the name of this guy).

Because of elements listed above, I think assuming Guede and Amanda dated each other is a perfectly reasonable scenario. It is not proven, but it is perfectly plausible. You can well hypothsyze it if you already have evidence on Knox and you want to complete the picture with some scenario of the crime.

Normally there should not be a 'clarification' about something one didn't say; anyway, does the quote above say Knox was a prostitute and Guede her pimp? It doesn't seem to me at all.

ps. when I said "phone" I meant "phone number".
 
I'm not sure how you can't understand how a mixture of the victim's blood co mingled with the defendants DNA in a random spot on the floor is significant. Lets just look at the two spots in Filomena's room,belonging to neither girl, for simplicity . You and others like to point out Amanda's contribution cannot be determined definitely to be blood, So even if it was just Amanda's DNA mixing with Meredith's blood in a small spot in Filomena's room Massei said vigorous hand washing could have released skin DNA and that mixed with the victim's blood.

First off, the amorphous stain in Filomena's room tested negative with blood with TMB and they didn't do a confirmatory test, so even the technicians on the scene--and/or in the lab--knew it wasn't blood. This is unlike the bathroom hits from where they mixed residue of Rudy Guede's washing up Meredith's blood with Amanda's DNA by swabbing far and wide in Amanda's sink and the drain of the bidet. That was blood, and tested positive for it and never tested negative. A blood test is a falsifier, any number of things can get a false positive, but if it's blood you won't get a false negative because it's a natural chemical reaction. Having been caught hiding the TMB tests they shamelessly 'hypothesized' that it was diluted blood, but that's not proof of anything or even very likely, and if it were and actually the result of the murder then how did it get there?

As for the vigorous hand washing, that's possible, but what's far more likely is it was from any number of activities the past two months that left Amanda's DNA in Amanda's sink and bidet. There's no reason to think it was a result of the murder, because how did Amanda get Meredith's blood on her having not left any trace whatsoever of herself in the murder room, where they most definitely went down to the picogram and found nothing of Amanda whatsoever.

Finding Amanda and Meredith's non-blood DNA caught with the same swab (which doesn't mean it was even in the exact same spot) in an entirely different part of the house than the murder room suggests nothing more than Amanda and Meredith lived there and doing enough swabs they were bound to capture the DNA of both in the same sample eventually. As has been pointed out they found the same of Raffaele and Amanda at Raffaele's, it doesn't mean Amanda killed Raffaele!
 
Nancy The purse was not a random memory like 'scooting on a mat' or the white color of her skirt.Or taking out her earring?? It was a glimpse of something personal of the missing girl seen just before Sollecito tried to break her door down.That's not something you would forget.

However it's also not something one would necessarily mention every single time when recounting what they saw looking for Meredith. Once you know there's a body in there, peeking through a keyhole and seeing an unmade bed and a purse amounts to seeing 'nothing' in the context of trying to see Meredith's body.
 
in clarifying the claim that Guede was Knox's pimp said:
No, I said Amanda's cell phone was found in the hands of some drug dealers, who also had this habit of giving drug in exchange of sex. And I know this practice is extremely frequent among many student girls who are normally not prostitutes. I also consider that this scenario is plausible with regard Amanda Knox - because of her age, location, people she attended, her habit of drug use and her emphasis on casual sex - and I think it is totally logical to consider it as a plausible scenario.

About her possible relation with Guede, I want to point out the following elements: Guede attended the same house where she lived; he was a close friend of a young man who lived downstaris; he used to spend his time in the basketball court which is on the route between her daily walk between home and language school back and forth every day; the basketball court is only 90 mters from Amanda's hose door and 60 meters from where she had university classes; they admitted of knowing each other, they had met more than once in more than one place; Guede was sexually attracted by Amanda, he liked her a lot (he was not interested in Meredith); Guede and Amanda atnded the same pubs and the same places in the city; Amanda wrote in her MySpace page that on her arrival in Perugia, in a bar near the University of Foreigners she met the "most beautiful black man" she had ever seen, and they promised to each other they would meet again as she would come back from Germany (black men attending bars in via Garibaldi are not so many; and Knox never revealed the name of this guy).

Because of elements listed above, I think assuming Guede and Amanda dated each other is a perfectly reasonable scenario. It is not proven, but it is perfectly plausible. You can well hypothsyze it if you already have evidence on Knox and you want to complete the picture with some scenario of the crime.

Normally there should not be a 'clarification' about something one didn't say; anyway, does the quote above say Knox was a prostitute and Guede her pimp? It doesn't seem to me at all.

ps. when I said "phone" I meant "phone number".

In the grand tradition that you promote that it is up to KNox to prove those things you allege did not happen...

Can you prove that you never said that Guede was Knox's pimp? I can make all sorts of claims why it is possible you could have said it.

I think because of the elements listed above I think assuming that you said Guede was Knox's pimp is a perfectly reasonable scenario. It is not proven, but it is perfectly plausible.

You can well hypothsyze it if you already have evidence on Knox and you want to complete the picture with some scenario of the crime.

You've never wanted to complete the picture. You've been asked dozens of times and have refused. So in fact I do hypothesize that you once said that Guede was Knox's pimp, if one already has evidence on Machiavelli, and all I want to do is complete the picture of why you post what you post.
 
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If I say contacts, I mean contacts, that is communications not citations.

So what's the evidence of this and why does it matter? They contacted Stefanoni too, they even did tests with her, and if I recall correctly defense experts were there too.

Anyway, Vecchiotti also inserted several citations which are not natural at all, they don't have any place nor authority in an academic contexts - such as partol police textbooks (it's like citing the Ljubiana City Police handbook, as if it was scientific literature).

They weren't presented as 'scientific literature,' merely as procedure manuals showing that the police in this case didn't follow their own procedures and that those were not unusual and shared by many agencies all over the world, including Wisconsin too, BTW.
 
This is not up to your usual standards. The spot was found with Luminol so not exactly random. Do you have a list of spots around the house that were found with Meredith's DNA in them?

Those would be found with 'substrate controls' (which should have been done around that stain) and as a matter of fact they either weren't done, or weren't released.
 
"Making a case for justice" are you? No you are not. In any case, it's pretty lame claiming to have "proven" something in another forum, without any reference to it, as though that settles a point here. Nobody in this forum has any obligation to go hunting in another location for an unspecified posting of yours, claimed by you to be proof of your point.

But you know, I have no obligation to repeat myself neither, not even to answer for once actually, with no offence to anyone. I am just explaining why I am not answering again here.

You make the mistake of assuming I post from the US. The location information ("London, England") under my user name should be a clue, here.

I had read it. I also thought for a moment about an edit but it won't be the case. However the point is that these argument won't have citizenship in the legal context where the trial takes place. They are non-existent, they would appear as surreal, alien to logic and facts.

Of course, this is true, but in reverse of the sense you are trying to make out. It's the accusations against Amanda and Raffaele that are the "foolish claims". There is certainly no genuine evidence to back them up.

Wel, you are quick to say "certainly"

Unfortunately, in the Massei trial the foolish claims were taken seriously; whether the Supreme Court was swayed by foolish claims is a question that will be answered by June 24.

There is no actual deadline, if you await the SC motivations.
To me - without Massei and independently from it - the evidence looks totally compelling.
(while all wild accusations against Mignini or Stefanoni they look foolish and obviously false).

You know, when you get excited, your writing style and command of the English language is noticeably different. It gives the impression that there is someone else typing the response than the cool, linguistically correct author of most of your posts.

I think it is a matter of time rather than excitement. When I'm hasty, don't have time to check or correct, I don't pay attention.

So, Machiavelli, do you disagree that the mandatory recordings of the Nov 5-6 interrogations of Amanda, Raff, and Patrick Lumumba are missing?

On the contrary, I expect you to concede that no recordings was mandatory, nor expected to exist.
And also that none of this would be logically relevant to the case (because Amanda wrote down false accusations with her hands, claimed a false memory syndrome, etc.).

Do you disagree that the bra clasp was allowed to rust by the scientific police?

But the bra clasp test was a legally 'non-repeatable' test. You know, the most frequent procedure by the Carabinieri is to destroy the piece of evidence after the incidente probatorio (in order to make it actually 'non-repeateble'). In this case instead, they tried to preserve it although thy were not expected to do so. But how could you prevent a pice of iron from rusting? You would need to de-hydrate the sample tissue and test tube completely (extremely difficult at cold temperature) or freeze it. You can't put an anti-rust solvent, it would destroy DNA. Why should a lab implement such extremely expensive procedures for non-requested purposes?

Or is this just a "propaganda narrative"?

It is indeed a propaganda narrative; on this latter particular point the fact itself (the rusting) is true, but the interpretation of it as if it was something "wrong" or unexpected is propaganda.
About the interrogation tapes instead, besides the falsehood of alleged logical implication and relevance, also the assertion that they were 'mandatory' is factually false.
 
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I think because of the elements listed above I think assuming that you said Guede was Knox's pimp is a perfectly reasonable scenario. It is not proven, but it is perfectly plausible.

Well actually it isn't. What I said - and probably even what you quoted - is just not compatible with the assertion that my position is that Amanda was a prostitute and Guede was her pimp. Such assertion contradicts what I said, it is not plausible at all to claim that I said that.
 
Obviously the trial papers are only available in Italian.
the trial papers include the very documentation that you have available too, and that you may read attentively. For example, those who claim the defence were denied access to EDF documentation by Stefanoni, should just read the legal papers more carefully - and also learn to distinguish the defence claims from hte actual doucmentation.
But besides the trial papers - some of them I ought not make public without permission, but you could easilly aske them to the Knox family - there is an array of Italian press sources available. Why for example, nobody read about what Vecchiotti and Conti stated about Stefanoni providing them all datat their requested, praised her laboratory for being fully cooperative and handing over everything...?

Are you talking about the quote where they said they had 'everything they needed' and then proceeded to determine her work was unreliable? That doesn't mean they had everything, just enough to know that nothing in the EDFs could make her work reliable.
 
I would have to concede that lack of grass or dirt on the wall is not helpful to the defence (though I see the scuff marks on the windowsill on one of the pictures).


That picture showing the scuff marks is the best photo of that wall we have and is from the sequence of the lawyer climbing up to the window. But that picture is taken 9 months after the murder. Any grass or dirt would have long since been washed away by the rain.

ETA: even the police testimony of the condition of that wall is from 2 years after the crime. There is no contemporary documentation.
 
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Well actually it isn't. What I said - and probably even what you quoted - is just not compatible with the assertion that my position is that Amanda was a prostitute and Guede was her pimp. Such assertion contradicts what I said, it is not plausible at all to claim that I said that.

So, Guede wasn't a pimp. Evidence suggests he was a police informant, though. Can you confirm that?
 
briars

First off, the amorphous stain in Filomena's room tested negative with blood with TMB and they didn't do a confirmatory test, so even the technicians on the scene--and/or in the lab--knew it wasn't blood. This is unlike the bathroom hits from where they mixed residue of Rudy Guede's washing up Meredith's blood with Amanda's DNA by swabbing far and wide in Amanda's sink and the drain of the bidet. That was blood, and tested positive for it and never tested negative. A blood test is a falsifier, any number of things can get a false positive, but if it's blood you won't get a false negative because it's a natural chemical reaction. Having been caught hiding the TMB tests they shamelessly 'hypothesized' that it was diluted blood, but that's not proof of anything or even very likely, and if it were and actually the result of the murder then how did it get there?

As for the vigorous hand washing, that's possible, but what's far more likely is it was from any number of activities the past two months that left Amanda's DNA in Amanda's sink and bidet. There's no reason to think it was a result of the murder, because how did Amanda get Meredith's blood on her having not left any trace whatsoever of herself in the murder room, where they most definitely went down to the picogram and found nothing of Amanda whatsoever.

Finding Amanda and Meredith's non-blood DNA caught with the same swab (which doesn't mean it was even in the exact same spot) in an entirely different part of the house than the murder room suggests nothing more than Amanda and Meredith lived there and doing enough swabs they were bound to capture the DNA of both in the same sample eventually. As has been pointed out they found the same of Raffaele and Amanda at Raffaele's, it doesn't mean Amanda killed Raffaele!

The swab taken in Filomena's room was contained to that room. No DNA of Filomena found but small mixed samples of the accused and Meredith deposited at the same time. There was DNA found of Sollecito on the clasp along with Meredith's, the only other complete profile. Sollecito being in the room does suggest Amanda's involvement . The lamp is further evidence.
 
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So what's the evidence of this and why does it matter? They contacted Stefanoni too, they even did tests with her, and if I recall correctly defense experts were there too.

The defence experts and civil parties that were present at the tests were officially in the record as taking part to an incidente probatorio.
They were also witnesses and submitted rports about it.
I decline speaking about evidence of contacts between C & V and unauthorized personnel. But the question why it matters, that should be clear. It matters because C & V work on their report should be secret. And C & V should be totally transparent about all their contacts and actions.
If these conditions are not satisfied, the report is polluted.

They weren't presented as 'scientific literature,' merely as procedure manuals showing that the police in this case didn't follow their own procedures and that those were not unusual and shared by many agencies all over the world, including Wisconsin too, BTW.

But in fact, what the expert was required to do was to re-test items for DNA, or to assess the likeliness of contamination or error in the previous tests.
Which is exactly what C & V did not do.
On the contrary, C & V were not required to assess if police actions were shared by manuals of agencies in parts of the world. They are not police critics. This was totally unrelated to their mandate and they would have no entitlement no reason to do such kind of cherry picked citation: it's out of context, that was not their research; and they are also not relating it to their results.
In fact, the only reasonable explanation for Vecchiotti and Conti citing Wisconsing highway patrol handooks and such material - mostly written by Budowle himself - is that it was Budowle and Hampikian themselves who adressed this material to the Italian experts - or you don't reasonably believe that University professors in Rome hold the Winsconsing highway police handbook among their sources - in other word Budowle and other they "oriented" the C & V report, which is thus totally polluted.
 
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