Ed Cryptozoology and megafauna

Yawn.

Okay. You don't like dogs. Take bears then. Big bears. Little bears. Brown bears. White bears. Black bears. It's essentially equal to the size and color variation reported for the walking ape.

First, "Yawn" is not a rebuttal of any of the points I brought up. If you can't refute them, simply say so. It saves everyone time.

Second, chaning your analogy to bears doesn't help. THose little bears are a seperate species from the big bears. The brown bears are a seperate species fromt eh white bears, and both are seperate species from the black bears. So again, now you're not just putting forth the idea of an undetected, breeding population of primates...but of multiple undetected, breeding populations which have maintained their seperation over extended times, all the while staying completely hidden from humanity while living essentially in it's shadow, and with counter-forensic skills that would be the envy of any season-long villian on a TV crime show.

And considering that the variations for bigfeets all seem to be seen in the same areas, that doesn't fly. If you have polar bears wandering around with black bears and sun bears in the same habitats, then you might have a point. But this just goes even further to show that you don't really understand what you're asking us to accept. You aren't approaching it scientifically or logically. You responded to someone else about "It doesn't exist until certain people give you permission to accept it". You're positing it's existence just because some people have told you so. The posters here, myself included, have devled into some of this so-called evidence and research. The asking for a scientific paper is not because we need to be told to accept it, but because scientific papers are written with the details, so a claim can be properly evaluated. They should include all the raw data, experimental techniques, and the reasoning chain for certain interpretations of data (such as the "dermal ridges" you claimed earlier).

I used to have a signature line about science being like car safety testing. The goal if a sicentist isn't to prove his idea true...it's to try and disprove it. Much like vehicle tests aren't desinged to coddle or protect the car, but to hit with everything you can think of and see if and how it breaks. A hypothesis must be submitted to this type of intense scrutiny before anyone should accept it; we don't see that with bigfoot. Physical evidence is generally poorly controlled, with questionable chains of custody and histories for samples. Raw data is rarely given, mostly what's presented is the conclusions rather than the data and reasoning that led to them. To go back to the analogy, the footers are giving us the results of the crash tests, but won't show us the videos or let us do the tests ourselves.

The only person looking for permission to accept the idea are those that buy into the footer myth based on a few stories and the say-so of a few people who make money from them via books and 'foot hunts. ANything stated in the foot community is accepted as truth, with little scrutiny. Those of us trying to look for the reality behind the statements are not waiting for permission to accept it. We're trying to find reasons why it should be accepted. If those reasons are lacking, as is so far the case, then it doesn't fly.
 
Oh. So you're one of "them". It doesn't exist until certain people give you permission to accept it. Okay.

One of those people who prefers to consider the objective analysis of extraordinary claims rather than blindly accepting the bald assertions of people with much to gain for making said claims? Yep, I'm one of those.
 
Any God that can create a Universe and Mankind can also create a talking snake and the rest of the stuff.
 
What kind of a scientist are you?

Also, do you know how many Gigantopithecus fossils have been found?

I'm a paleontologist, currently specialized in Tertiary and Quaternary mammal fossils of the American desert southwest, primarily focused on the Mojave. (I know, I know, but that's the jargon the field uses, and while my stratigraphy background makes me cringe at it no one understands me when I use the right terms!)

I'm not sure how many Gigantopithecus fossils have been found. Homanids aren't my interest (you should see what finding a human bone does to salvage paleontology operations!). That said, I do know that while their range extends into China and southeastern Asia, it's not known to extend into North America at any point. The number of Gigantopithecus fossils found in North America is 0.

Oh. So you're one of "them". It doesn't exist until certain people give you permission to accept it. Okay.
See, the funny thing is that even if this nonsense was true, it wouldn't apply to me. I'm one of the folks what gets to say whether it's true or not (biologists and archaeologists also fall into this group).

Okay. You don't like dogs. Take bears then. Big bears. Little bears. Brown bears. White bears. Black bears. It's essentially equal to the size and color variation reported for the walking ape.
Not even close, actually. And the difference is, we know the populations and distributions of bears. The known population of bears is >1. The known population of bigfoots is <1.
 
back to the discovery of new species

just to put a light on this: discovering new species is not particulalry difficult, but it does require education and commitment. BF believers seem to have alot of committment to their own particular religion (but distain and almost hatred for any who question their belief system)

But where they are clearly lacking is in the education. And the interesting thing is each and every one of them knows that they do not have the education and scientific background neccisary for this work, but they will spout till they are blue in the face trying to come up with enough BS to give themselves credence as self proclaimed experts. And on top of that they gin up strawmen arguments trying to counter what little science has been done, and spout that strawman as their mantra, until all believers accept it as gospel. The best thing about gospel of course is that it requires you to accept it on faith. No scientific test is allowed. If you do not have the faith, you are weak, or of the devil!

Bigfoot is the god of a religious cult. Science is the enemy!

You want to describe a new species? opportunities abound. I spent a few hours yesterday in a small university museum loaded with specimens from Brazil.
in the past 5 years, from that collection, there have been 6 new species of coral snakes - 1 described, the other 5 are currently being written up.

jars full of a new species of frog, and several other new species of frog already described.

An egg eating 4 foot long lizard was desribed from this project .

There 50 jars full of different species of fish, best estimate 40% are new species.

All of this from 1 sampling effort, and there are still 50 5 gallon cans of pickled specimens of all species who have never even been looked at.

and thats not even looking at the mammals or birds.

Anyone really interested - and qualified to describe a new species, your participation is welcomed!

I can't help but see all this time and money and emotion wasted on a false diety like BF, and can't help but wonder about how much real science could have been done with that effort and expense.
 
PS while I am down here

I will be spending an afternoon talking with and looking through the museum collection of the guy who is the recognized brazilian native indian expert. I will pump him for any local legends of BF among the tribes here.

In the meantime, i see all the time guys saying that 60 different american indian tribes had words for bigfoot - anyone have an actual researched paper or reference on that, other that that disgraced forced to quit ex cop Paulides spouting?

and any references to where I can find mention of the original white settlers to americas refering to BF?

I see those "facts" refered to all the time by believers, but just to be sure, being one of those "guys", I really would like to see it for myself - first hand!
 
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I will be spending an afternoon talking with and looking through the museum collection of the guy who is the recognized brazilian native indian expert. I will pump him for any local legends of BF among the tribes here.

...snip...

I think he will probably mention but not buy the Mapinguari = bigfoot some cryptozoologists experts babbled. I think he will do the same regarding the Mapinguari = giant ground sloth babble from some other cryptozoology "experts". The odds are he'll say its all nonsense and wishful thinking, but above all, myth twisting and cherry-picking.

I do have an axe to grind with the woo folks who distort myths to suit their needs, especially when the myths are from my country. We've done and are still doing a hell of a job when it comes down to sending our native cultures to oblivion. We don't need any help on this...
 
I think he will probably mention but not buy the Mapinguari = bigfoot some cryptozoologists experts babbled. I think he will do the same regarding the Mapinguari = giant ground sloth babble from some other cryptozoology "experts". The odds are he'll say its all nonsense and wishful thinking, but above all, myth twisting and cherry-picking.

I do have an axe to grind with the woo folks who distort myths to suit their needs, especially when the myths are from my country. We've done and are still doing a hell of a job when it comes down to sending our native cultures to oblivion. We don't need any help on this...

Concerning Native American legends, there are many.
http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legends/Legends-AB.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Indian/stories.html
Problem is how they have been altered over the years and how many have been retrofitted to suit Bigfoot enthusiasts. Every culture has its boogeyman, and Bigfoot enthusiasts will shamelessly shoe-horn those stories to fit.
 
he di not mention Mapinguari by name, but we did talk about the riduculous giant ground sloth BS. (see more below on that)

. he did however say that the Kaiapo?sp? do have a BF legend, but it is considered to be essentially a campfire story to keep the kids from wandering off to far. He also said that one of the first enthnographer/anthropologists to hear the story came out of the jungle spouting that it was evidence that the Kaiapo had had contact with an american indian from the pacific north west. Once the North American idian apparently learned their language , he passed on the story, which the Kaiapo adopted into their own mythology.

The woman "professional anthropologist" who came up with that far fetched scenario was duly castigated and minimalized by the anthropologic community for making such a fantastic claim with absolutely no evidence! sound familiar?

I find the giant ground sloth surving story to be interesting for a couple of reasons. The first i heard of it some ornithologist David Oren anyway he ended up on a documentary , probably mid 1990's, in search of the ground sloth. he had a call, sounded exactly like BoBos Bigfoot call, and the hunt looked exactly like aBF hunt. I was rolling on the floor laughing because his hired local guides would see the ground sloth day after day, showing him piles of what turned out to be armadillo crap, and agouti hair, even his "claw marks looked suspiciously like they were made with the tool rubber tappers used to score the rubber tree bark. His local guides would see the sloth just up ahead, day after day, and this idiot kept eating up the BS, paying and feeding them and giving them camera time, it was a joy to watch the idiot get worked by the locals! good for the local economy!
At least we actually have fossils of the ground sloth!

I think he will probably mention but not buy the Mapinguari = bigfoot some cryptozoologists experts babbled. I think he will do the same regarding the Mapinguari = giant ground sloth babble from some other cryptozoology "experts". The odds are he'll say its all nonsense and wishful thinking, but above all, myth twisting and cherry-picking.

I do have an axe to grind with the woo folks who distort myths to suit their needs, especially when the myths are from my country. We've done and are still doing a hell of a job when it comes down to sending our native cultures to oblivion. We don't need any help on this...
 
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I wish a surviving species of hominid would be discovered but it never will. Oliver was a good candidate until DNA revealed he was just a deformed chimpanzee. I wonder if he was bred to a female chimp or if his DNA has been stored?
 
I'm a paleontologist, currently specialized in Tertiary and Quaternary mammal fossils of the American desert southwest, primarily focused on the Mojave. (I know, I know, but that's the jargon the field uses, and while my stratigraphy background makes me cringe at it no one understands me when I use the right terms!)

I'm not sure how many Gigantopithecus fossils have been found.
<snip>

Fascinating. Well, at least you're honest.
 
I wish a surviving species of hominid would be discovered but it never will. Oliver was a good candidate until DNA revealed he was just a deformed chimpanzee. I wonder if he was bred to a female chimp or if his DNA has been stored?

Never is a long time.
 
I will be spending an afternoon talking with and looking through the museum collection of the guy who is the recognized brazilian native indian expert. I will pump him for any local legends of BF among the tribes here.

In the meantime, i see all the time guys saying that 60 different american indian tribes had words for bigfoot - anyone have an actual researched paper or reference on that, other that that disgraced forced to quit ex cop Paulides spouting?

and any references to where I can find mention of the original white settlers to americas refering to BF?

I see those "facts" refered to all the time by believers, but just to be sure, being one of those "guys", I really would like to see it for myself - first hand!

I've never heard of any white settler references, or any BF claims in Brazil, but I know very little about the field or the claims. I obviously walked into a hornet's nest here. :D
 
^It's not a hornet's nest if you do some homework before you post (e.g., natural selection and artificial selection are not the same thing) and you rely on sources more reputable than the bloody book of Genesis.
 
Never is a long time.
you are correct! now put it into context:

There has NEVER been any evidence presented that verifies Bigfoot,!

Never is a very long time, and each and every one of those days goes by, well thats another day - another data point, where Bigfoot has evaded all forms of verifiable detection.

Never! Never been seen! Never been found!

Powerfull word!

BTW would that be the creation story in Genesis one? or the one in Genesis 2? as they are quite different accounts and contradict each other in numerous ways! As I am sure you are aware!
 

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