Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

Kaosium

Do you remember the other day giving me a link to the nice, clear egrams at IIP after I linked you to the ones in the C-V report (that look as though they were made in crayon)? Do you know how the nice ones were generated and what their source is?

I ask because I wonder whether she deliberately sent barely legible egrams in some kind of huff. I offer an alternative theory for the suppression of EDFs and controls: indignation. We could be witnessing an extended and childish spat rather than cynical suppression.

I offer this idea in the same spirit as Grinder's Locard theory in Filomena's room - a possibility I don't personally believe.

I think the crummy ones come out of the RTIGF, the others from the 30July09 delivery of some of the files requested by the defense experts. Halides1 could give you a better answer I'm sure. Incidentally one thing I recall reading about the original trial is for some material, I think it was this, she waited until the last day and then dumped all the files on them un-numbered and out of sequence.

As for indignation she certainly put on a show of it, whether it was feigned or not I cannot be sure. I do know every time she finally released something there was significant things of profound relevance found.

I doubt those EDFs will ever be seen, if the next judge absolutely requires it upon pain of arrest she'll just claim they were lost or erased, budget concerns or somesuch. Then they will demand they're perfectly justified in using the bra clasp and knife anyway, just like they did after C&V reported their results as being unreliable.

 

[Kaosium]

Here's my theory on what happened.

I'm not a nitpicker so I won't, but I just wanted to say that's an excellent reconstruction of what probably happened. I also wanted to thank you for reminding me recently that Rudy claimed in his revised, prosecution-pleasing addition that Meredith and Amanda were arguing in Italian, which they had to have been for him to understand it, which one of the silliest non-Mignini claims made in this case.

 

[snook1]

I'm not a nitpicker so I won't, but I just wanted to say that's an excellent reconstruction of what probably happened.

That's, actually, what I believe happened. Great read.

 

[Antony]

Well, you have to admit the bath mat print doesn't make a lot of sense regardless who left it. Why is the blood only on the mat, if it came from his pant legs, shouldn't there be some major drops between Meredith's room and the mat if there was that much blood. If you ask me, it would seem more likely if someone stepped in blood with a sock on and hopped to the mat where they took it off and washed it out.

Sherlock, you complain about others asking you to repeat what you have already posted - yet you ignore the multiple times this print has been explained in the context of Guede committing the crime on his own.

It makes perfect sense: he went to the bathroom to rinse blood off the leg of his trousers and took his shoe off to do so. In doing so he got the blood-water mix running onto his bare foot, and made the print by momentarily stepping on the mat at this point. There are no foot- or shoe-prints leading there because he did not (yet) have blood on his shoes.

We know he returned to the murder room with the towels from the bathroom, so it fits the sequence of events perfectly easily.

 

[Supernaut]

Here's my theory on what happened.

Around 8:30pm Rudy arrives at the cottage (From CCTV footage), most likely to see the guys downstairs. He's broke and looking to score some pot for free from them (We know he was broke and that the guys downstairs were growing dope plants, used it, and that Rudy had been around before.) Finding no-one home he gets it into his head to break in, but with the windows all gilled he decides that the girl's place will have to do, after all he knows that they are close to the guys downstairs and so might have some dope and perhaps money that he can take.

Noting that the balcony is well lit by street lights and visible from the road (you can see this in the photos, video, and on Google Maps Street View), he climbs up and pulls open Filomena's shutters (as shown by the defence demonstration), pushing them fully open, then makes his way back up to the car park area, selecting a reasonable sized rock (which later will be found in Filomena's room) he lobs it through the window (this explains the final placement of the rock as it is already travelling angled towards the left looking in the window. It hits the inner shutters denting the wood and leaving glass in the dent, throwing the shutters open and scattering glass across the room. The shutter deflects the rock further to the left resulting in it falling beside the wall in the bag, which then tips over.) He then waits to see if anyone heard it knowing that he can head up the driveway if a light comes on. Seeing no-one, he climbs over to the top of the guy's window and started removing glass and putting it on the sill, then when he can reach through to get the latch he does, scratching his arm in the process leaving the blood and hair that were never tested. With the window open he is able to climb up and through. He steps on the TV cable pulling the TV on top of the wardrobe, then making it inside, he pulls shut the outer shutters and closes the window.

The time is now about 8:45pm. Rudy knocks over the laptop looking at that, but knowing the trouble he had fencing the Lawyer's one decides to leave it, and rummages through Filomena's bedside table instead, looking drugs or money (seems to have been disturbed in the photos). He then heads out of her room and into the lounge, stops at the fridge for a drink of orange juice, and moves onto Laura's room when he searches through her dresser drawer (which is open and looks disturbed in the crime scene photos.

It's now about 9.00pm. Rudy gets a call of nature and heads to the loo in the Italian girl's bathroom.

9:05pm Meredith returns home unaware of the intruder inside. She might find the lights on inside and think that Amanda left them on when she left for Raff's. She heads down to her room planning to get out the books she was going to study and re-ring her mother (which she did around this time each night and had just failed to be able to get through based on her phone's history.)

~9:06pm Rudy now knows that someone is home. He can't afford to disturb them and risk getting caught, so doesn't flush. He heads out into the lounge and to the front door, but finds it locked (The door had a habit of coming open if just latched so the girls had to keep it locked to prevent this. It is unlikely that Meredith would not lock the door because she was supposed to be going to bed as she was tired according to her friends.)

~9:07pm Rudy realises that the only ways out are either via Filomena's window, which he doesn't want to risk a fall from, or by confronting whoever is home. Getting out his knife, he opts for confrontation.

~9:08pm Rudy enters Meredith's room catching her by surprise. A fight ensues. Which Meredith is strong and puts up a good fight, Rudy has size and muscle on his side, and is able to overpower her grabbing her hair, slamming her head against the wall. The fight culminates with Rudy throwing his body weight onto her from behind and stabbing her in the neck to stop her screams. Meredith collapses beside the wardrobe, bleeding heavily, blood from the wound being aspirated over the wardrobe doors. (The state of the room, blood and wounds tell the story of the fight.)

~9:12pm Rudy collapses on the bed placing the knife down on the sheet leaving the bloody imprint. Realising what he has done he gets up and pulls Meredith's jacket off (DNA on clothing), then tries to push her t-shirt up to stop the bleeding. When this fails he goes and gets towels from the bathroom and used them. He grabs Meredith's Bra strap (DNA located on bra) and hauls her into the middle of the room, ripping the strap and clasp from the bra, exposing her breasts (this is shown by the blood drops aspirated onto her breasts after she is moved and the bra torn off.)

~9:18pm Perhaps turned on by the fight and seeing her naked breasts, Rudy decides to assault Meredith as she dies, pulling down her jeans and panties, putting the pillow under her hips and violating her (DNA found inside Meredith) before ejaculating onto the pillow (semen stain on the pillow)

After the 3rd, fatal knife blow (which, unlike the first two, was not a simple stab but a stab followed by a sideways slash), Meredtith collapsed from her hands and knees, and her last desperate act was to grab Guede's right shin with both arms and hold on to it tightly.

In doing so she pressed the copiously bleeding wound against it and soaked his jeans in blood.

I believe that THIS is what turned Geude on - the living warmth he could feel on his skin. In fact, I believe he stood there for some seconds enjoying this "embrace", and his jeans became practically saturated in blood.
At whatever point he went to bathroom to rinse his jeans and right shoe off, before he did so he turned or rolled up his pant leg and took off his right shoe (and sock), thus leaving no shoe or foot prints leading to the bathroom.
The print on the bathmat is a result of putting his right foot down after rinsing the pant leg out, probably while he rinsed his shoe. Part of the print is from the hem of his jeans, and obscured the arch.

~9:20pm Meredith ceases to breath. Rudy goes into the bathroom to clean up, discovers that his trousers have her blood on them and so after washing his hands and the knife uses either the shower or the bidet to wash his trousers and then steps onto the bathmat leaving a washed out footprint in Meredith's watered down blood which is now on his foot from the washing of his trousers.

~9:35pm Rudy puts his shoes back on returns to Meredith's room and places the duvet over her, the action of a first time killer who is feeling remorseful. He accidently steps in her blood. (Footprints in Meredith's blood in bedroom)

~9:40pm Rudy goes to leave, but getting to the front door remembers that it is locked. (Bloody footprints to front door.) The blood has wiped off and dried on his shoe by this point. He returns to Meredith's room and looks through her purse, taking her money, the cellphones and her keys, leaving his DNA on the purse.

~9:45pm Rudy uses the only Yale key on Meredith's key ring to lock her door, returns to the front door and leaves the girl's home, then uses the key open Meredith's keyring to break in downstairs, but after a short search fails to find anything and leaves.

~10:00pm Rudy accidently makes phone calls, terminating them before they connect to towers

10:13pm Across the over side of the valley on the way home Rudy gets a shock when a text/video message comes in. Turns off phone and decides that they are too dangerous to keep so starts looking for a place to throw them

~10:30pm Rudy tosses phones into garden.


Now observant people will notice that none of the "facts" that the PGP's really like appear in this narrative.

1) Amanda's Bloody Footprints - Never positively identified as Amanda's. Never shown to be Meredith's blood, or even blood. Could have been there for longer than both Meredith and Amanda had even been living in Italy. No evidence of cleaning either. There is simply no evidence that the luminal footprints are connected to the crime. The absolute nail however is that there is only one footprint in any of Meredith's pooled blood and that is made by Rudy's shoe, thus no one with bare or socked feet could make bloody footprints.

2) The double DNA knife - As the C&V report states, there is no evidence that this knife was the murder weapon, or that it even had Meredith's DNA on it. The collection, storage and testing procedures were insufficient to rule out contamination at the levels that the test was done. The actions of the lab after this including trying to prevent the electronic files being seen and producing fake control tests indicates that there are serious issues with the testing.

3) The Bra Clasp - At this point I am going to go with the speculation that this was in fact planted. While contamination is possible, and since other profiles were on the clasp as well there was some form of contamination, I suspect based on the events of locating it, the violated crime scene that wasn't, and that the officer most likely responsible has been caught planting evidence in another case, I feel that the speculation is close to correct.

 

[JREF2010]

I think the crummy ones come out of the RTIGF, the others from the 30July09 delivery of some of the files requested by the defense experts. Halides1 could give you a better answer I'm sure. Incidentally one thing I recall reading about the original trial is for some material, I think it was this, she waited until the last day and then dumped all the files on them un-numbered and out of sequence.

As for indignation she certainly put on a show of it, whether it was feigned or not I cannot be sure. I do know every time she finally released something there was significant things of profound relevance found.

I doubt those EDFs will ever be seen, if the next judge absolutely requires it upon pain of arrest she'll just claim they were lost or erased, budget concerns or somesuch. Then they will demand they're perfectly justified in using the bra clasp and knife anyway, just like they did after C&V reported their results as being unreliable.

Sloppy work from the Stefoni.....Obstinate in a mafia like "protected way". It just aligns to the theory they aren't interested in finding the truth for the Kerchers, only in saving face.

And the reason the defence couldnt do another test on the clasp, is why? the sloppy work in storage of the clasp, they left it molding and useless for future testing.

Then her boss deems she did a great job, right? The persecutor's all claim she did a great job.Mignesca, Commode, her boss and others, all agreeing the Sloppy Stefoni is perfect, a top notch expert in her field.

funny/odd, Sloppy Stefoni, as an expert is like calling the computer idiots, experts.

Are they incompetent or corrupt? Its seems that's the real question.

 

[JREF2010]

Sherlock, you complain about others asking you to repeat what you have already posted - yet you ignore the multiple times this print has been explained in the context of Guede committing the crime on his own.

It makes perfect sense: he went to the bathroom to rinse blood off the leg of his trousers and took his shoe off to do so. In doing so he got the blood-water mix running onto his bare foot, and made the print by momentarily stepping on the mat at this point. There are no foot- or shoe-prints leading there because he did not (yet) have blood on his shoes.

We know he returned to the murder room with the towels from the bathroom, so it fits the sequence of events perfectly easily.

Too bad they didn't take some footprints with wet socks on his foot, there might have been an interesting bit of info.

I wonder too, what if he used a towel to wipe off his leg and took the shoe off for a moment, and stepped on the bathmat.

 

[Dan O.]

How did they know it was unknown poo? She didn't try flushing it, maybe it was Filomena's and the toilet broke, how would she know. How did she even see it in the first place, she shouldn't have even been in that room, the blow dryer was in the laundry room next to the bathroom on the bench, and the plug in and mirror are next to the washer, even further away.

Maybe she has a nose for this sort of thing and just sort of sensed it.

 

[Briars]

Too bad they didn't take some footprints with wet socks on his foot, there might have been an interesting bit of info.

I wonder too, what if he used a towel to wipe off his leg and took the shoe off for a moment, and stepped on the bathmat.

If the bidet filled with enough bloody water to allow for a full foot print who cleaned the bidet after? The only evidence left was a small water drip and some near the drain that dried darker. A foot and pant immersed in water would leave more evidence on the bidet with splashing and a ring. Pants drip when wet where was the floor evidence? He didn't dry his foot resting on the bidet the put in down with your theory. At the very least someone cleaned the bathroom that night and missed some watery drops that dried darker. The wet and bloody towel would have left evidence on the floor as no one would dry their foot mid air.

 

[Machiavelli]

What evidence is there outside the citation?

Anyway, the most plausible explanation is were just about any honest competent scientist presented with that DNA work they'd denounce it too, that's not a crime at all, it's science. That's why there's so many who've spoken out against it; for the ones who care about the integrity and standards of the field Stefanoni's 'work' is an abomination.

If producing a picture with a profile on it is all that matters, why all the nonsense about scientific standards, using those expensive machines and having an education and learning all those complicated words?

Why don't we just let her draw the electropherograms in crayon?

This would be a very serious crime. The crime would be committed by Vecchiotti and Conti.
If judge-appointed experts have any informal contact with other experts - but especially with experts linked to the defence or who already expressed a view on the case - that would be a very serious crime, and it would cause their report to become trash paper in any Italian trial.

 

[Grinder]

There would have to be blood on a knife that was used in a murder which would have to be cleaned off. How can the blood be cleaned off without removing DNA? Unless one cleans with a solution of the same composition as cells, the cells will burst under osmotic shock. Detergent will help to dissolve the lipid membranes of any human cell, weakening it and probably making the process of breaking them easier. Once the cell is broken down, the DNA will be more susceptible to nucleases in the environment. Yet the DNA in the knife electropherogram shows no sign of random degradation. Sorry, not buying it. I think that Dr. Budowle is correct.

And Novelli and Garfano say contamination must be proven and they are top notch Italian DNA expert and former head of the police.

The theory would be that the knife was washed off thoroughly with water but a tiny fragment of bone lodged in a crevice.

PGP like Italian experts and PIP like US experts.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yea good luck with that one...one of the most respected DNA experts in the world...the man responsible for setting up the DNA program for the FBI according to you "polluted" the C&V report.

And yet Stefanoni who is not anything close to an expert and is just a technician with a 4 year degree somehow didn't pollute her whole exam?

The evidence of the crime will be found to be committed by Stefanoni likely at the behest of her boss Biondo...It is already provable that she has lied in several courts. She has withheld discovery data from the defense and from the independent experts...

But the clock is ticking now...this time the frauds will be revealed. The experts such as Budowle will be the fans that blow the smokescreen away from the corruption of Italy. The fraud is Mignini.

Do you consider it illegal for C and V to use reference material and publications and world wide standards in completing their report? What in the law prevents them from seeking different opinions? Expert opinions.

Was it illegal for Biondo to certify that he checked Stefanonis work and found it perfect?

But Stefanoni was not judge-appointed, she was a technical consultant for the prosecution, and Biondo was not an informal contact, he was a witness - he did not 'certify', he was called to testify. And he was called to testify only after Stefanoni's report was already deposited and her testimony officialized.

Budowle instead was not authorised by any judge, he did not testify, and he was not 'super partes' (neutral) but instead linked to the defence party. And C-V contacts with Budowle occured before they wrote their report and gave their testimony, not after; that means at a time where their work should have been secret.
So C-V contacts with Budowle are completely illegal and they would taint fatally both C-V and their report.

 

[Grinder]

This would be a very serious crime. The crime would be committed by Vecchiotti and Conti.
If judge-appointed experts have any informal contact with other experts - but especially with experts linked to the defence or who already expressed a view on the case - that would be a very serious crime, and it would cause their report to become trash paper in any Italian trial.

They had contact with experts from both sides.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Sherlock, you complain about others asking you to repeat what you have already posted - yet you ignore the multiple times this print has been explained in the context of Guede committing the crime on his own.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of how the PGP think.

From their perspective it means nothing if the PIP provide a perfectly reasonable explanation for a talking point which the PGP think is evidence of Amanda Knox's guilt. To the PGP, they have so very many talking points that it means Amanda Knox must be guilty, even if all of the talking points have perfectly reasonable explanations. After all, how on Earth could someone who wasn't guilty have so very many talking points deployed against them?

As far as they are concerned, it's the PIPs job to prove not only that reasonable explanations exist, but that all of those explanations are actually true. Otherwise she's still guilty. That's what "beyond reasonable doubt" means, right?

Once they've convinced themselves by this manoeuvre that Amanda Knox must be guilty, then they feel entitled to re-interpret all the evidence in light of her guilt. If she's guilty, that means all the talking points must be true, right? So all the talking points are true, because there are so very many of them. Case closed.

This seems to be SL's reasoning for rehabilitating all sorts of debunked talking points like Curatolo's evidence, Nara's evidence and the bloody footprint on the bathmat. She must be guilty because there are so many talking points, and if she's guilty that means Curatolo and Nara must be reliable, and the footprint must be Sollecitos, and so on.

It's kind of like pulling on your own bootlaces in an attempt to levitate.

 

[Briars]

Maybe she has a nose for this sort of thing and just sort of sensed it.

Doubt it , she put her nose to the keyhole and failed to smell the large quantity of blood, (Matt made the point that blood has a metallic smell). Speaking of that why did she write in her book she saw nothing looking through the key hole? Earlier she had seen the purse on the bed. These edits for the books that both Sollecito and Amanda have made do nothing to help their cause.

 

[Grinder]

I think I'm starting to get the hang of how the PGP think.

From their perspective it means nothing if the PIP provide a perfectly reasonable explanation for a talking point which the PGP think is evidence of Amanda Knox's guilt. To the PGP, they have so very many talking points that it means Amanda Knox must be guilty, even if all of the talking points have perfectly reasonable explanations. After all, how on Earth could someone who wasn't guilty have so very many talking points deployed against them?

I addition things that can't be proved one way or the other are central to their case. What did Raf say exactly during the interrogation of the 5th? Did the police ask him if he was sure Amanda remained at the flat while he slept or did he suddenly just say that she went out? The fact that there has never been a transcript or recording of this interrogation released bothers the PGP not.

The accusation of PL is in the same league. They are not bothered by the fact that it wasn't recorded and they have no reason to explain why the police claimed that she told them what they knew to be correct, when it wasn't. How anybody can get passed the statements of the police that day are beyond me.

The "I pricked her" comment that was taken from a diary he was writing, foolishly, for himself while in prison and maybe even solitary isn't exactly like making that a response to the police, but the PGP repeat it a thousand times as if it was testimony he gave.

Then there are the POVs of the british girls that didn't know Amanda hardly at all and had little to no contact with the cottage and the relationships there.

Curatolo is such a joke it is hard to believe that anybody could use his word for anything. Had he come forward the week of the murder when the police questioned him it would be somewhat different. He never picked them out of a line-up (do they have them in Italy ) or described them until their faces had been plastered in the papers for months.

Nara and Quintavalle about which the same sort of basic questions must be asked.

How can the PGP not see that this case at best was bungled by the ILE and they are guilty and at worst it was bungled and they are innocent.

 

[Grinder]

Doubt it , she put her nose to the keyhole and failed to smell the large quantity of blood, (Matt made the point that blood has a metallic smell). Speaking of that why did she write in her book she saw nothing looking through the key hole? Earlier she had seen the purse on the bed. These edits for the books that both Sollecito and Amanda have made do nothing to help their cause.

To Kevin's point.

The great find by Vogt a person that attempted to build a career on the murder of poor Meredith.

Check out her list of stories before and after the murder.

What in world does it matter if she saw or didn't see the purse. When did she testify that she saw the purse? Did seeing the purse make her guilty or innocent, I forget?

 

[Machiavelli]

They had contact with experts from both sides.

Absolutely not. Contacts trhough judges or in official venues (like tests in the incidente probatorio) are something totally different. If they had contacts with an external, unofficial experts that influenced thir report, 1) they committed a crime and 2) their report is trash.

 

[anglolawyer]

Doubt it , she put her nose to the keyhole and failed to smell the large quantity of blood, (Matt made the point that blood has a metallic smell). Speaking of that why did she write in her book she saw nothing looking through the key hole? Earlier she had seen the purse on the bed. These edits for the books that both Sollecito and Amanda have made do nothing to help their cause.

She wasn't a wasp. If she had been, she could not just have smelled the blood through the key hole but flown through it and taken a looksee. Can you remember how many of those who showed up next day reported smelling the blood? That would be none, right?

 

[anglolawyer]

Absolutely not. Contacts trhough judges or in official venues (like tests in the incidente probatorio) are something totally different. If they had contacts with an external, unofficial experts that influenced thir report, 1) they committed a crime and 2) their report is trash.

I notice you never comment on the content of the C-V report. I am pretty sure it's because you don't understand it. That makes it easier for you to believe its conclusions are the product of a masonic conspiracy or some bitchy antagonism between Vechiotti and Stefanoni (with Conti a hapless bystander).

With which of their conclusions do you disagree and, by reference to the facts they record rather than dietrological fantasy, why?