General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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The point is that is that an Israel court found Demjanjuk not guilty

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22427976

Demjanjuk precedent

Auschwitz was the biggest Nazi extermination camp, where more than 1.1 million people, most of them Jews, were murdered.

Prosecutors have pointed to a re-interpretation of criminal law after the conviction of John Demjanjuk in May 2011.

Demjanjuk was found guilty of being an accessory to the murder of 28,060 Jews while he was a guard at the Sobibor death camp in occupied Poland.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/in-memory-of-john-demjanjuk-124648.html

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...nnocent-in-germany-over-technicality-1.420280
Convicted Nazi criminal Demjanjuk deemed innocent in Germany over technicality
 
The point is that is that an Israel court found Demjanjuk not guilty.

Not exactly (and this quote is from one of your links).

Munich state court spokeswoman Margarete Noetzel said this week that under German law, Demjanjuk is "still technically presumed innocent," because he died before his final appeal could be heard, and "a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty."

The middle link raises some troubling issues.

It was about the trial of modern-day Germany, of Israel before that, and by extension, since the case started there, of the United States. In their desire to condemn the transgressions of Germany’s past, the prosecutors and judges in the Demjanjuk case, from its beginnings in the United States to Munich, failed to follow elementary rules of fairness, due process and the rule of law.

They employed immigration instead of criminal rules to lower the standard of proof for the prosecution, they knowingly withheld key evidence from the defense and were found by a U.S. appeals court to have committed prosecutorial misconduct.


The case could be said to have been infected by confirmation bias. Perhaps Demjanjuk was done an injustice. However, the prosecutors are under a lot of pressure, they may be guilty of, at times, using the 'greater-good-rationale,' very true.

But I don't see that as grounds to characterize the Simon Wiesenthal Center as being ""Lying Scum."
 
The point is that is that an Israel court found Demjanjuk not guilty.

Only because he was mistakenly identified as Ivan Marchenko and charged with that man's crimes. He was tried for crimes under his own name in Germany, for which he is technically not guilty, only because he died before the legal process was complete.
 
If you listen to German males of a certain age, you become convinced that the WWII German army fielded more non-combatants than any wartime army in history.

And if you listen to allied males of the same age there seems to be a strange shortage of support troops. When you consider the casulties amoung actual front line troops and the number of support roles required in WW2 its not actualy that improbable.
 
Clayton failed to quote this:

So he was a member of this criminal organisation, and neither a civilian employee (as the occupation as "cook" otherwise might suggest) nor a member of the regular armed forces, the Wehrmacht.
And he admits to having supported the operations of the Waffen SS at Auschwitz, where, as we all know, a good million people were murdered in a systematic and planned fashion by Mr Lipschis' criminal organisation.

Clayton also failed to quote this part:

So it appears that Mr Lipschis, while perhaps not directly involved in the killing operations (he did not push any victims in the gas chambers nor did he throw the gas pills into the chabers), may considered an accessory to the murder of many at Auschwitz, by supporting the actual murderers with daily meals. But I caution that we don't know the actual content of the indictment against Mr Lipschis yet, as...


Now I wonder how Clayton found any "scum" from the Simon Wiesenthal Center to have been "lying" in this case. Here is a summary of all the statements attributed to the Simon Wiesenthal Center in the cited article:

So I wonder which of these statements is a lie, in Clayton's opinion?
Clayton, do claim that the Simon Wiesenthal Center did NOT name him as number four on its list of most-wanted Nazis?
Or do you claim that he did NOT participate in the mass murder and persecution of innocent civilians, primarily Jews, at Auschwitz between October 1941 and 1945 (by cooking for the Waffen SS, who guarded the death camp)?
Or do you claim that the Simon Wiesenthal Center does NOT regard this as a positive step, or does NOT welcome the arrest?
I cannot find the lie!

The article links to this document from the Simon Wiesenthal Center:
http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/{5...c3e6dd277}/NAZI-WAR-CRIMINALS-REPORT_2013.PDF
It states about Mr. Lipschis - full quote:

Do you claim he did not serve in the SS – Totenkopf Sturmbann (Death’s Head Battalion) from October 1941 until 1945 at the Auschwitz – Birkenau death camp? It seems Lipschis already admitted that he did in fact serve with the Waffen-SS at Auschwitz.
Or do you claim that he did NOT participate in the mass murder and persecution of innocent civilians, primarily Jews? I guess that's what you deny, right?

I guess in this case, we should find where the difference in our understanding begins. To start off:
Do you deny that innocent civilians, primarily Jews, were mass-murdered and persecuted at Auschwitz-Birkenau?
Or do you deny that the Waffen-SS, which guarded the camp, bore partial responsibility for those mass-murders by guarding the killing operation?
or do you merely deny that a cook for this organisation has anything to do with what the organisation does?
If the latter, let me ask you: Do you think that membership in a criminal organisation can be itself a crime, even if you don't participate directly in murders?

That's a lot of questions, and I don't expect you this time to answer each of them seperately. A summary reply from which your answer to each can be deduced will do. Perhaps you could say that there is no actual lie from the Simon Wiesenthal Center in this article, that you just generally thing they are lying scum.

I'm guessing you mean this Auschwitz.


http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/c...ion/index.html


“The main camp of Auschwitz was like a small town, with its gossiping and chatting. There was a grocery, a canteen, a cinema. There was a theatre with regular performances. And there was a sports club of which I was a member. It was all fun and entertainment, just like a small town.

newyorkguy

But I don't see that as grounds to characterize the Simon Wiesenthal Center as being ""Lying Scum."

The Center's one purpose is to make any criticism of bad Jewish a criticism of all Jewish people with Holocaust guilt.

If that 93 year old man had been guilty of anything he would have been arrested decades ago. He wasn't hiding.


You need to go through the testimonies used to demonize the Germans during and after post WWII kangaroo court trials.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9200958&postcount=5802
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9180037&postcount=5791
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7169810&postcount=1982
 
“The main camp of Auschwitz was like a small town, with its gossiping and chatting. There was a grocery, a canteen, a cinema. There was a theatre with regular performances. And there was a sports club of which I was a member. It was all fun and entertainment, just like a small town."

Sean Penn: Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles.
 
Not really. It's against the law in Germany to dispute the lies spewed by the
Simon Wiesenthal Center scum.

Nope. What's against the law is to resort to incitement to racial hatred.

A defendant in a war crimes trial can happily deny all knowledge of mass murder and can even try denying there were any mass murders there at all. That won't fly legally as a defense, because there will always be plenty of evidence to contradict such a claim, but it won't get the defendant convicted under article 130.

It's when the defendant starts ranting about the Jews and their evil ways that they might find themselves up on additional charges.
 
I wonder what they'll charge the guy with in charge of cleaning the swimming pool reservoir for the fire brigade should they ever find such a guy still living. My guess is "directly responsible for the killing of 1 million people".
 
Do you realize it makes no sense to claim he wouldn't violate a minor law even as a defense against a much greater crime?

The guy is 93. They could drop the current charges and he could be convicted for your so called minor crime.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22427976

His house was searched by police and he was then brought before a judge and remanded in custody.

An indictment against him is currently being prepared, according to the Stuttgart prosecutor's office

Guilty or not guilty it's likely a life sentence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

2 By country

2.1 Austria
2.2 Belgium
2.3 Bosnia and Herzegovina
2.4 Czech Republic
2.5 France
2.6 Germany
2.6.1 § 130 Public incitement
2.6.2 Other sections
2.7 Hungary
2.8 Israel
2.9 Liechtenstein
2.10 Lithuania
2.11 Luxembourg
2.12 Netherlands
2.13 Poland
2.14 Portugal
2.15 Romania
2.16 Spain
2.17 Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Prosecutions_and_convictions
 
Have any Nazi's who were involved and later prosecuted ever used holocaust denial (as opposed to "I didn't know about it") as a defense?

Ranb

Once or twice is about it. In one 1960s trial of SS men stationed at Stanislawow, the defense called the Jewish Holocaust denier J.G. Burg as an "expert witness"; he was allowed to testify but the court found his testimony absolutely useless for the case - he wasn't in Stanislawow during the war anyway, but in Romania.

The other case which came pretty close was the antics of one defense lawyer in the Duesseldorf Majdanek trial; he was pretty obviously influenced by denier arguments and managed to alienate the judge in the process of trying to discredit witnesses. He eventually stepped aside as his defense was hurting his clients' case.

Interestingly when forced labour camp commandant Josef Schwammberger was extradited from Latin America and stood trial in the early 90s there was a neo-Nazi cheerleader chorus for him in court who were so rowdy that the judge told them to shut up or they'd not even have a chance to pick up a toothbrush before landing in jail for contempt of court.
 
http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/corruption/index.html
If you read these so called Historical Holocaust sites objectively you learn that they aren't in sync because the lies contradict each other.

Auschwitz is commonly used to refer to the camp system that existed around Osweicim in Poland. There were numerous camps. You can refer to the camps where there was a post office, brothel etc all you want. There is no denying that.

The real issue is Birkenau and Auschwitz 1 and the Kremas, which like other sites for extermination only functioned for part of the War. There is no denying that either, though you accept the former and deny the latter despite all the evidence for both.
 
All you need to read is this part from the OP:

At the time it could not be proved that he was personally responsible for any killings.

It's not bloody likely any new witnesses or documents have come forward but that he's being harassed all over again for having been part of that particular Waffen SS part, without a shred of evidence for any actual crimes. Or, a travesty of justice.
 
I wonder what they'll charge the guy with in charge of cleaning the swimming pool reservoir for the fire brigade should they ever find such a guy still living. My guess is "directly responsible for the killing of 1 million people".

Probably not, since the fire reservoir/swimming pool (built in the summer of 1944 and used by privileged kapos) was located in the main camp, and this lacked extermination facilities by 1944. Specific evidence would be needed that the SS man in question had done something bad. The Demjanjuk ruling only opened the door for prosecutions of guards at camps with extermination facilities.
 
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