Fact checking and further comments on popular feminist talking points

Kuko 4000

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About 15 years ago I came to the conclusion that feminism is not my way of taking a stand and supporting social equality, for reasons x and x, this is my position today as well. Nevertheless, I've been looking a bit into current day feminism again after Elevatorgate, and more recently through a good friend of mine who's a proud feminist.

Anyways, she linked me to one of those lists of "here's xx number of reasons to be a feminist", and singled out these points as most important for her (click the link to look at the pics if the meaning does not come clearly from the text):

http://trettiotreanledningar.com/33-reasons-to-be-a-feminist/

1) Because this type of violence-glorifying and misogynist commercials is not unusual and gets to exist in our society without many reactions.

3) Because women are constantly sexualized and objectified, while men get credit for their skills and professions.

12) Because 1 our of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime.

13) Because we live in a society that teaches women to be careful not to get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape.

14) Because it is more dangerous to be a woman than a soldier in modern conflict.

15) Because we want women's bodies to be left alone and not constant subject for discussion, disrespect, abuse and objectification.

17) Because several young men can rape a girl during an entire night (Seubenville) twitter about it while in action, laugh about it afterwards and then be defended by the society which blames the victim because she was drunk.

20) Because victims of rape are too often distrusted. 54% of sexual assaults are not reported to the police.

24) Because there are approximately 2 million victims of sex trafficking each year. 85% of the victims are women.

25) "Yes, I am a feminist. No, I don't hate men." To spread awareness and knowledge about what feminism works for. Equality. Everyone who has a mother, sister, daughter, son or a friend would want them to have respect and rights, right?

29) Because we need to be aware of the sexism that surrounds us and say NO to it.


Fact checks and all kinds of further insights into these issues are appreciated.

Basically, it all boils down to the idea that women have it way worse than men in our current western culture. I don't buy into that (excluding religious sub cultures, etc.), but would love to start at least fact checking the obvious claims on this list. I have my own take on many of these points already, some of them are more valid than others in my mind, but would love to hear others thoughts as well to complement or possibly overturn my current thinking.

Fact checks and a better overall picture especially on points 12, 14 and 24.
 
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About 15 years ago I came to the conclusion that feminism is not my way of taking a stand and supporting social equality, for reasons x and x, this is my position today as well. Nevertheless, I've been looking a bit into current day feminism again after Elevatorgate, and more recently through a good friend of mine who's a proud feminist.

Anyways, she linked me to one of those lists of "here's xx number of reasons to be a feminist", and singled out these points as most important for her (click the link to look at the pics if the meaning does not come clearly from the text):

http://trettiotreanledningar.com/33-reasons-to-be-a-feminist/

1) Because this type of violence-glorifying and misogynist commercials is not unusual and gets to exist in our society without many reactions.

3) Because women are constantly sexualized and objectified, while men get credit for their skills and professions.

12) Because 1 our of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime.

13) Because we live in a society that teaches women to be careful not to get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape.

14) Because it is more dangerous to be a woman than a soldier in modern conflict.

15) Because we want women's bodies to be left alone and not constant subject for discussion, disrespect, abuse and objectification.

17) Because several young men can rape a girl during an entire night (Seubenville) twitter about it while in action, laugh about it afterwards and then be defended by the society which blames the victim because she was drunk.

20) Because victims of rape are too often distrusted. 54% of sexual assaults are not reported to the police.

24) Because there are approximately 2 million victims of sex trafficking each year. 85% of the victims are women.

25) "Yes, I am a feminist. No, I don't hate men." To spread awareness and knowledge about what feminism works for. Equality. Everyone who has a mother, sister, daughter, son or a friend would want them to have respect and rights, right?

29) Because we need to be aware of the sexism that surrounds us and say NO to it.


Fact checks and all kinds of further insights into these issues are appreciated.

Basically, it all boils down to the idea that women have it way worse than men in our current western culture. I don't buy into that (excluding religious sub cultures, etc.), but would love to start at least fact checking the obvious claims on this list. I have my own take on many of these points already, some of them are more valid than others in my mind, but would love to hear others thoughts as well to complement or possibly overturn my current thinking.

Fact checks and a better overall picture especially on points 12, 14 and 24.


Statistics are that 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted and 1 in 6 males.

Domestic/partner violence in most societies effects women more strongly than men, despite what many apologists will say. Women generally do not have the social resources or support to leave an abusive relationship, and given the predominance of women caring for children, it also makes it harder for women to flee. So in a society where women are not empowered and treated a chattel domestic violence is very hard to flee.

Sex trafficking is real and predominately effects women.

Now what this has to do with feminism I have no idea.

I am a feminist, I support equality. I do not support special rights for anyone, but given the social dis empowerment of women in many societies, it is understandable that they feel then need equality sooner than later.

Sure, there are some jerk feminists out there, I do not believe they are the dominating force in 'feminism'. No more than the Black Panthers were the the dominant force in the US civil rights movement. I support equality therefore I am a feminist.

When there is equality for men and women, when women are socially treated at the same level, then there will be no feminists. Now in the US this has changed drasticaly in my life time, other societies, not so much.
 
I'm very happen that this discussion is *finally* happening (or at least gaining traction) in the open source community, it's been a very hostile community towards women. Its abhorrent the things that have happened at conferences.


Some good background:
http://adainitiative.org/
 
Fact checks and a better overall picture especially on points 12, 14 and 24.

14 is true. Thats because modern conflict racks up more civilian casulties than millitary and ~50% of civilians are female. If there is some further bias in favour of female civilian deaths I don't know.

24 is ah messy. I'm not up on global sex trafficking at least in Europe a significant chunk of it is women deciding that it is better to be a prostitute in London than Pristina.
 
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Of the others:

1)is pretty much true. Fall-back of lazy advertisers is to show a pretty woman interacting with the product. Really rather annoying.

13)Its complicated. We've become pretty good at no means no but that still leaves an unfortunate gap between refusal and positive consent (see the recent yes means yes campaign). However the fact that men aren't taught to take action to avoid being raped is thought to be one of the reasons they are more likely to be victims of things like assaults and muggings.

20)The performance of police forces varies by location. However there are an increasing number that are pretty good in this area. The problem they face is the practical consideration that in order to get a conviction any claims will have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt and thats rather hard to do.
 
24) Because there are approximately 2 million victims of sex trafficking each year. 85% of the victims are women.

Here are some statistics on human trafficking. The short introduction makes it clear that it's not easy to find reliable sources for statistics on such a subject:

The following is a list of available statistics estimating the scope of Human Trafficking around the world and within the United States. Actual statistics are often unavailable, and some may be contradictory due to the covert nature of the crime, the invisibility of victims and high levels of under-reporting. Further obstacles include inconsistent definitions, reluctance to share data, and a lack of funding for and standardization of data collection. Particularly lacking are estimates on the number of American citizens trafficked within the U.S.
 
3) Because women are constantly sexualized and objectified, while men get credit for their skills and professions.

I think the picture used to illustrate this tells us that magazines objectify both men and women, just for different things. I will never be able to exploit a curvacious body or an attractive pair of breasts. On the other hand, I'll never impress anyone with my paycheck either. Men who are not professionals are kind of left out in the cold here in the same way that women who don't meet an ideal are. And, not to beat the point to death, I think you'd have a hard time finding a truly unattractive man gracing the cover of GQ.

In a nutshell, we go with what the other gender is attracted to. I'm pretty sure we do that to ourselves, without being forced into it.

What is the feminist position on this? Is it that they don't want to be attractive to the opposite sex, and yes, even "sexy?" Or is it that they want to be that but then not have men react to it? Or is it something else altogether? Surely, women could figure out how to be slovenly and unappealing as well as men can (and often do).
 
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I would like to see some evidence for a few of them
1. Where is this advertisement? Does it simulate rape?
3. Has that picture ever been banned from Facebook? Where, when? Is this sort of thing common or was it a once off thing?
27. Source?

I would also add another one. Women should stop showing the cleavage while wearing a push up bra. They should use their brains to impress both themselves and others instead.
 
3) Because women are constantly sexualized and objectified, while men get credit for their skills and professions.

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I think the picture used to illustrate this tells us that magazines objectify both men and women, just for different things.
...
In a nutshell, we go with what the other gender is attracted to. I'm pretty sure we do that to ourselves, without being forced into it.


Yep, our cultures reinforce our natural tendencies. I don't think this kind of exposure is particularly healthy overall, but it definitely goes two ways. It's a fine and probably a very personal line where something like this turns from "so what?" into a serious problem. My beef with much of the feminist rhetoric is that it seems to claim many things where women have it worse, but then present only their side of the story, or at least a distorted overall picture. I don't think this is a good way towards social equality in the long run.

What is the feminist position on this? Is it that they don't want to be attractive to the opposite sex, and yes, even "sexy?" Or is it that they want to be that but then not have men react to it? Or is it something else altogether?


Good additional points to think about, personally I think there are more interesting ways to appear sexy than simply lessening ones clothing. One of the main positions seems to be that having only beautiful women with perfect bodies on the covers (and in the rest of the magazine) makes most of the women (even amazingly gorgeus women, as my friend) feel inferior and bad about themselves.

My understanding is that women's magazines (Cosmo, Vogue, Elle, Glamour, etc.) tend to be focused on physical looks much more than men's magazines like GQ, in every way.

I have a feeling that overall men might have even more outside pressures from our culture than women, for example, in addition to the physical pressures that affect both genders, afaik, socio-economically women tend to pair up "upwards" while men don't really care, etc. In any case, I don't think women have it worse in this case, and not even close to the extent feminists seem to usually report the possible mis-match (if it exists at all).

I bumped into this article yesterday:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/06/body-image-concerns-men-more-than-women

More men worry about their body shape and appearance – beer bellies, "man boobs" or going bald – than women do about how they look, according to research.

More than four in five men (80.7%) talk in ways that promote anxiety about their body image by referring to perceived flaws and imperfections, compared with 75% of women. Similarly, 38% of men would sacrifice at least a year of their life in exchange for a perfect body – again, a higher proportion than women.

"These findings tell us that men are concerned about body image, just like women. We knew that 'body talk' affected women and young people and now we know that it affects men too," said Dr Phillippa Diedrichs, from the centre of appearance research at the University of the West of England. She conducted the study, of 394 British men, which was commissioned by Central YMCA and the Succeed Foundation, an eating disorders charity.


It wasn't a massive study, but it definitely matches my own understanding of the issue, which is that insecurities and worries about physical appearance definitely concern men as well. Is anyone familiar with more research on this?

Another link of the same study: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16430142
 
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Domestic/partner violence in most societies effects women more strongly than men, despite what many apologists will say. Women generally do not have the social resources or support to leave an abusive relationship, and given the predominance of women caring for children, it also makes it harder for women to flee. So in a society where women are not empowered and treated a chattel domestic violence is very hard to flee.

is this true in modern time ? From what a recent study showed abuse in a couple seems to be rather 50/50 (male/female) and I am not so sure in western society that women "do not have social resource" is correct. From knowing a few abusive relationship from the outside it seems to me the first hurdle is psychological.
 
Background:

I went through all the covers of GQ, Cosmo, Glamour and some of Elle, etc. and found that the women in the cover of GQ were on average portrayed in less clothes and in more "sexy" poses and facial expressions than in the above mentioned women's magazines. Women were in about 10% of GQ covers, while there were no men at all in the covers of Cosmo, Glamour and the ones I saw of Elle. The men in GQ covers were almost always fully clothed, while women were about 50% of the time in very scant clothing. Although, it has to be said, that most of the women were pop stars or models who look pretty much like that in their own professional work as well.

Men in the cover of Vogue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogue_(magazine)#History

Only four men have been featured on the cover of the magazine:[12][13][14]
Richard Gere, with Cindy Crawford in November 1992;
George Clooney, with Gisele Bündchen in June 2000;
LeBron James, with Gisele Bündchen in April 2008; and
Ryan Lochte, with Hope Solo and Serena Williams in June 2012.


In spite of the less clothed and "sexier" appearance of women in GQ covers, at least one study (from a feminist journal Sex Roles) mentioned in the abstract:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018848332464

Men's magazines focus on providing entertainment and expanding knowledge, hobbies, and activities; women's magazines continue to focus on improving one's life by changing one's appearance.


In addition, usually the people who run women's magazines tend to be women.
 
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is this true in modern time ? From what a recent study showed abuse in a couple seems to be rather 50/50 (male/female) and I am not so sure in western society that women "do not have social resource" is correct. From knowing a few abusive relationship from the outside it seems to me the first hurdle is psychological.


I'd like to understand this more clearly too. And yes, we were talking about developed western societies.

There's all kinds of info available:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Gender_aspects_of_abuse

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020

http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

The last 2 I've sourced from MRA's videos or articles, so approach with healthy skepticism.

And this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

Also, AFAIK, purely lesbian relationships have as much violence than heterosexual relationships, this is something to think about as well. This was off the top of my head, and I know the research is in its infancy, but I'll try to dig up the studies that I've seen of this.

Personally, I don't have a hard time believing that men are naturally more aggressive / competitive than women (for evolutionary reasons), but men have also evolved to protect, and our current way of life is way detached from our instincts. It's a complicated issue. Men seem to both inflict and suffer the most from violence.
 
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What is the feminist position on this? Is it that they don't want to be attractive to the opposite sex, and yes, even "sexy?" Or is it that they want to be that but then not have men react to it? Or is it something else altogether? Surely, women could figure out how to be slovenly and unappealing as well as men can (and often do).

It is sad that this is all too common a question. It is not surprising, given that there are so many attacks on feminism in the mass media (and on this board).

What most feminists want is that women get the ability to go through their lives without being defined and limited by their sexual attractiveness. That men should be able to get over looking at "a push up bra" and that the burden should not be on women to have to appeal to men (either through wearing a push up bra or by covering their body completely) in order to be seen as using their brains or any skills or talents they have.
 
is this true in modern time ? From what a recent study showed abuse in a couple seems to be rather 50/50 (male/female) and I am not so sure in western society that women "do not have social resource" is correct. From knowing a few abusive relationship from the outside it seems to me the first hurdle is psychological.

The impacts and ability to flee are different, in some societies there is still the stigmatization of victims as well.
Yes, I agree that domestic violence effects both genders, however in some societies, women do not have the social power to flee or the economic resources. If you are the one who stays at the house and does not have the ability to find work, this si very hard to flee from, If you care for the children this further makes it hard to flee.

Yes, developed societies can make it easier for victims to flee despite this, but even in developed countries there can be tremendous barriers to women leaving. But if you are in a culture that stigmatizes you for leaving this is a problem. And if you are in a society taht does not allow for the free movement of women this is further burden in fleeing.
I have stated for a long time that domestic violence effects both genders, however if you are in a society or situation where you do not have economic security/freedom or social mobility, the burden usually is harder for women.

So my point is not that domestic violence is not evenly distributed but that the burdens of fleeing are larger for women. especially in societies of closure for women. The ones that have men trading their wives into prostitution, honor killings, open sexual groping of strangers, laws that punish women for leaving the home, where socials taus is dependent upon marriage: those are the markers of where it would be very hard to flee.

As a male who was in a power differential marriage, and the one who gave up work to stay home and raise a child, I am well aware of the powerlessness of the one who stays home and does not work. As societies change this burden will cross gender lines more evenly. But in societies where women have to have segregated rail cars to prevent sexual assault, there are real burdens women face that men do not.

Even when I was at the DV shelter 12 years ago, the main focus was not on how women are more likely to be victims of DV, but how they do not have the same social benefits as men. Now i am also very acquainted with the men blaming side of the DV movement, which is pathetic. The issues we dealt with at the shelter were more about providing safety while people got a job and an income. And then the social power inequities of the legal system.

men and women both are victims of DV, but in many situations there are greater burdens for women fleeing.
 
WTF? Where is the serious evidence for this?


I don't claim to have serious evidence, that's why I said I don't have a hard time believing the idea, so to me this seems entirely believable from the little that I know of our evolutionary history, and that of other species.

This is because 100 women and a one man can make 100 babies in a year, but 100 men and a one woman can make only 1 or 2, speaking of humans ofc. This encourages all kinds of competition among males, and there's not a big leap to aggression, I could be wrong though. It makes evolutionary sense that females prefer males that can provide safety and food.

This makes sense to me, and our current cultures reinforce our evolutionary instincts, which can easily backfire in todays reality.

Aren't testosterone levels a good indicator of aggressive behaviour in humans?

Kwalish, what is your understanding on this, and what is it based on?
 
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