Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

She-devil quote

Tom Chivers noted, "That quote in full, by the way, was "a diabolical, satanic, demonic she-devil" who "likes alcohol, drugs and hot, wild sex". It's not the only time Satan has been mentioned in the case."

 

[Grinder]

Well here is a look from outside towards the inside...your argument is getting weaker and weaker.

I like all the J vector talk but it seems designed to baffle with BS rather dazzle with brilliance...

Notice the low parapet walkway outside the fence. Rudy stood here to make his easy lob...the outer shutters open fully against the wall. Do you understand that there are inner shutters as well?

dbl click to enlarge...

It is likely the shutters were open as Filomena was in such a rush to leave that she had Raf and Amanda wrap the gift. Why would one close the shutters on a window that was too high for entry?

 

[DrTesla]

Nina Burleigh wrote, "As late as October 2008, a year after the murder, he told a court that the murder 'was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite [that] in the intention of the organizers … should have occurred 24 hours earlier' – on Halloween itself – 'but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organized by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day.'"

Burleigh was exposed as getting a lot of facts wrong by True Justice.

she was getting even the birth dates wrong of the accused by year so or more. that's basic information that requires a little attention to detail. and she screwed it up so to trust her on the satantic rite thing is folly. She's just repeating Doug Preston like most of the American media does.

By the way, a lot of you young people don't remember this, but Nina Burleigh is the liberal journalist who said that she wouldn't mind giving Bill Clinton a BJ for keeping abortion legal. That's really her legacy as a journalist. It's hard to set that aside and believe she is an intelligent woman and a serious journalist.

 

[DrTesla]

What language were they talking in?

Knox is a bright girl who is good with languages / Knox was unable to understand any Italian (there is some credence to this, as she admits in her book, she primarily spoke the language of sex with the "boyfriend")

one wonders how she managed to get by in Italy prior to the murder given her utter ignorance of the language spoken there. doesn't seem like it would be much fun to live there if you cannot understand anybody.

 

[Kaosium]

I think I agree with just about everything you stated, and hence my absolute dislike of Maresca. If MK had been my daughter I would have wanted my lawyer to find the truth, no matter how bad that made the authorities look. Maresca has no intention of finding out the truth for his clients. He lies to them, uses them, and cuddles up to the prosecution working with them to bury the truth. A lawyer that really had his client's best interests at heart would have dug through the case and when he found out the truth sued the pants off the ILE and Mignini for their actions.

Do you or anyone else know what happened in those civil suits? I think I recall whilst lurking the thread some time ago that the charges had been dropped against the Sollecitos, was that also the case in the civil suit, or was it that I heard the civil suit had been dropped?

Last I heard the police calunnia charge against the Knox's had been delayed until after the SC verdict, has anything happened yet, either criminal (against Amanda) or civil? (against the Knox's)

As for Maresca, he deserves 'nothing but shame...eternal shame.' The tragic thing is I recall shortly after the verdict reading that the Kerchers had to mortgage something, probably to pay Maresca. Italy doesn't work on contingency, so in any event Maresca will get paid.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Back to the 60s

Are we talking Gilligan's Island?

Do you mean the professor character from Gilligan's Island? I looked for a picture, but I found a whole essay about Gilligan's Island, complete with pictures here (good for a laugh after a long day). BTW my reference to Laugh-In's Dan Rowan and Dick Martin was to a recurring skit they used to do where they played clueless spies. One o them tried to explain to the other a plan for a ridiculously complex dead drop (or something), and "I lost you at the bakery," was the expected payoff line. My point was that the prosecution's theory was likewise ridiculously complex.

 

[js202]

talking about Ozars razor is your debate trick, you want to present yourself as some kind of legal mind by talking about a legal principle. But you are not demonstrating that you understand the principle. I must scoff anybody advocating for Knox, who told a huge whopper about a bloody bathmat boogie scoot, wants to lecture me about Ozars razor.

Your logic is basically that is that we convict people based on what they have done before and be close minded to any possibility that this scenario was different. That's a dangerous logic. First, he was never convicted for burgarly which is amazing if he has done this time and again and caught doing it. As I pointed out, his history didn't including robbing people he knew and I don't think he ever even targeted a house in Perugia, they were in other cities. You keep playing up this idea he has experience, but at the same time you present him as the dumbest burglar around willing to expose himself to potential witnesses by throwing a 10 lb rock at a window and climbing up twice all within sight of a parking lot and main road when a easier path of entry was available to him on the other side of the house that he would have been aware of b/c it was near the front door of the drug guys he was friends with. it also doesn't make much sense he would target this house for a burgarly given it's obvious the occupants were not rich, and then upon all that effort in breaking in, not to take anything but some cell phones and maybe 300 dollars from the victim? Why would rudy want to throw Filo's clothes on the floor, as it looks like the rest of the room was undisturbed and he did not even search for anything much less take anything from her room. Does he have an interest in female fashion?

And then we must conclude by examing the floater he left in the toilet. I just cannot envision a burglar who probably does not know when the occupatans are going to return, at best he is guesing but you never know if an occupant may have a change of plans and return, I cannot envisions such a burglar in a danergous situation of breaking into a place where he is not supposed to be, sitting down on the toilet and dropping the boys off at school given this is a very vulnerable positon to be in. Your goal as a burglar is to get in, grab the loot, and get out as soon as possible. the turd in the toilet seems to indicate Rudy was taking his sweat time and then he doesn't take anything, and this was all preceded by him putting maximum effort and exposing him to witnesss both via sound and sight to break into the high window. One must conclusde that Rudy was at the house socially prior to the murder, and if he was there socially, he was there with Knox and Raffe.

if the chit don't fit this scenario, you must not acquit Knox.

I rest my case. Next.

No. Two things: 1) read how simple my explanation is for how Guede used the rock to break into the cottage, utilizing an MO he had been known to use before; okay? 2) now read your approximation of War and Peace.

No parlor tricks, no hyperbole. Occam's Razor exemplified.

And you still haven't gotten back to me on your views about the photos from the murder room. Item by item. Because, you see, that's the only way we can have an honest discussion with you, here. You've been proven wrong on too many things, and it's time-consuming coming up with cites that you blithely dismiss out of hand.

Consult the photos which Charlie Wilkes posted a few pages back. Making reference to data specifically contained in the photos, give your arguments. Expose your position truly to the light of day here, and then you will be engaging honorably in the debate.

 

[RandyN]

One-on-one knife attacks sometimes leave a victim with hundreds of stab wounds, if the attacker is enraged or mentally unstable.

Meredith had two puncture wounds under her chin and a deep gash in her throat. Those were the major knife wounds. She also had a shallow cut parallel to the gash, and a couple of minor knife pricks on her throat and under her chin.

She had a series of fingertip bruises on the right side of her jaw.

She had a couple of defensive cuts on her right hand.

She had some minor bruising on her hips and extremities.

Maybe you can add up every small contusion and blemish and get 43 wounds. What is more important is the pattern of injuries, which shows emphatically that Meredith was attacked by one assailant who held her from behind, controlling her with his left hand and the weight of his body, and wielding a knife in his right hand. And that is exactly consistent with the bloodstain patterns in the room.

Everyone who has really studied the crime scene and the autopsy report can see this. It is obvious. Therefore, the prosecution and Massei had a problem. They solved the problem as follows:

- They got the experts to concede that an unspecified scenario involving multiple attackers was theoretically possible and could be consistent with Meredith's injuries.

- On that basis, they announced that the experts all agreed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person, and they avoided going into detail.

I have attached a working sketch from Mignini's cartoon video, which somehow leaked out to the press. Mignini made the mistake of trying to get into detail, which is why Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked his cartoon to the media.

Notice the position of the three attackers. They are standing back, because the bloodstain patterns in the room require that for any scenario with multiple attackers. The figure on the left almost looks as though he is trying to help the victim to her feet.

That is not realistic for a knife attack against a victim who is fighting for her life. It is not what happened. Meredith was in roughly that position when her throat was cut, as shown by the aspirated blood on the closet - but she had one guy behind and on top of her, gripping her tightly, using the full weight of his body to control her while he reached around and cut her throat with the knife in his right hand.

I disagree that Meredith was in the position depicted in this cartoon. She had to be somewhat raised (say on her knees) and facing the closet doors in order to get the blood spray pattern on the closet doors. I agree that Guede was behind her and facing the closet doors as well.

The 43 wounds excuse is one of the weakest arguments for proving multiple attackers...I suggest anyone trying to promote that lame argument Google Jody Aries and see what she did to a bigger, stronger man who was not attacked in any surprise fashion... Im betting this little girl inflicted more than 43 wounds, abrasions. etc on her victim...all alone by herself without any help...solely lone wolf like.

 

[Grinder]

What language were they talking in?

I understand it is a custom in Italy when courting someone to list out all felonies committed and the MO.

Another theory put forward by the PGP is that Amanda and Raf read about the lawyers' break-in in the local paper's police blotter.

Nothing on the prosecution side disturbs the PGP. Not Curatolo. Not the 47 day lag. Not the absence of Amanda's DNA in the murder room. Not the holding back of testing data from independent experts. Not the lack of any video conformation of Amanda in the streets. Not the delay and conflicting statements of all the witnesses. Etc.

 

[Briars]

Are we talking Gilligan's Island?

Your responsible for your silent approval.At least a couple of you spoke up The minister, the professor, and the lawyer did not.

 

[Kaosium]

Burleigh was exposed as getting a lot of facts wrong by True Justice.

Facts and truth don't ever enter the equation where TJMK is concerned. What you don't appear to realize is this is one group of people who started on the Steve Huff crime boards shortly after the murder. They've branched out since, look at TJMK's archives for the very first posts, you'll see Skeptical Bystander (perhaps posting under her real name Peg Ganong) making some of the first posts to get them started, Fast Pete (Peter Quinell) came from PMF. Your favorite site either is someone who went through their archives and decided to compile all their best lies, misleading information and 'evidence' interpretation or it's just them branching out again as the media, which once paid them attention notably Andrea Vogt without doubt (she quoted some of them and was pictured with PMF on her computer!) and quite probably Barbie Nadeau--caught on to the fact they were just a kook palace hate cult.

she was getting even the birth dates wrong of the accused by year so or more. that's basic information that requires a little attention to detail. and she screwed it up so to trust her on the satantic rite thing is folly. She's just repeating Doug Preston like most of the American media does.

By the way, a lot of you young people don't remember this, but Nina Burleigh is the liberal journalist who said that she wouldn't mind giving Bill Clinton a BJ for keeping abortion legal. That's really her legacy as a journalist. It's hard to set that aside and believe she is an intelligent woman and a serious journalist.

You're quoting nuts and dolts, it's all just disingenuous spin. Some of them don't even believe what they say, but I bet it gives them a thrill when they see chumps repeat it!

 

[Bill Williams]

No. Two things: 1) read how simple my explanation is for how Guede used the rock to break into the cottage, utilizing an MO he had been known to use before; okay? 2) now read your approximation of War and Peace.

No parlor tricks, no hyperbole. Occam's Razor exemplified.

And you still haven't gotten back to me on your views about the photos from the murder room. Item by item. Because, you see, that's the only way we can have an honest discussion with you, here. You've been proven wrong on too many things, and it's time-consuming coming up with cites that you blithely dismiss out of hand.
Consult the photos which Charlie Wilkes posted a few pages back. Making reference to data specifically contained in the photos, give your arguments. Expose your position truly to the light of day here, and then you will be engaging honorably in the debate.

The highlighted part is what I look for when I am lurking on a site and trying to get up to speed with what's what, and who's who.

I particularly liked the citation from True Justice about Nina Burleigh to prove she's a liar. Like True Justice is an impartial arbiter of truth.... just go there and read a while.

 

[Kaosium]

Your responsible for your silent approval.At least a couple of you spoke up The minister, the professor, and the lawyer did not.

No one who defames innocents and fits them into their rape-murder fantasy scenarios because they cannot evaluate evidence or admit they were wrong has any case for moral superiority, that goes for Mignini and all who were sucked into his delusions.

 

[RandyN]

Yes. I know. I have a bootleg copy of the script for the 18 Dec movie. But, before I share it with you, I should just point out the clasp was not found under the pile of stuff but under the small rug on the floor. Ready? Here it is.

Go to apartment. Dress as bunnies. Make song and dance about getting all the fancy little evidence bags out. Rummage professionally among clothes on bed for a while. Find nothing. All. Retreat to kitchen. Stare at laptop. Rub chins thoughtfully. Point at screen. Return to bedroom. Camera focus on far wall not on corner where rug is. Swing round to show clasp found. All. Gather round to mark major breakthrough in investigation. Point, shine torch, drop on floor **** it! Pick it up you idiot. Photograph. Go home.

Well close but no cigar. The clasp was actually found under the floor rug which had trash piled on top of it. Somewhere there is a photo of this trash heap.

The interesting thing about the bra clasp discovery super moment is why it meant anything at all on Dec 18th. There was a blood covered outer jacket found in the hamper...no over acted scene for that. There were also blood covered shoes and socks and the victims purse all still there after a complete crime scene investigation. And no big production number like we witnessed for the bra clasp discovery. There was the comedic clip of the wrapping of the mop but the bra clasp collection stood out as a victory find...cept it was Dec 18th and no tests had been preformed yet....so why the celebration? BTW if you review the clasp drop in slow motion you will see that it was placed on the floor and not dropped. The reason is that they forgot to photograph its position so they just kinda guessed???? Amazing video actually.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Knox is a bright girl who is good with languages / Knox was unable to understand any Italian (there is some credence to this, as she admits in her book, she primarily spoke the language of sex with the "boyfriend")

one wonders how she managed to get by in Italy prior to the murder given her utter ignorance of the language spoken there. doesn't seem like it would be much fun to live there if you cannot understand anybody.

Thanks for not answering the question.

 

[Briars]

No one who defames innocents and fits them into their sick fantasies because they cannot evaluate evidence or admit they were wrong has any case for moral superiority, that goes for Mignini and all who were sucked into his delusions.

You are fine with the attack on the Kerchers , It's obscene to suggest they are only in it for the money. Its not acceptable no matter whether you support Amanda or not. You have lost your moral compass and sunk with the other three men? in a tub.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I understand it is a custom in Italy when courting someone to list out all felonies committed and the MO.

Another theory put forward by the PGP is that Amanda and Raf read about the lawyers' break-in in the local paper's police blotter.

Nothing on the prosecution side disturbs the PGP. Not Curatolo. Not the 47 day lag. Not the absence of Amanda's DNA in the murder room. Not the holding back of testing data from independent experts. Not the lack of any video conformation of Amanda in the streets. Not the delay and conflicting statements of all the witnesses. Etc.

Yes I noticed. They come across exactly like those that call Apollo a Hoax. They refuse to answer direct questions, they never admit that they are wrong, they won't even admit to the possibility that the evidence isn't what they claim it to be. It's almost as if they know that as soon as they admit that okay there a possibility that one of their talking points isn't right, that their entire case is going to unravel on them, so they fight tooth and nail to continue to support lies and half-truths as if their lives depend on it.

It like the bra clasp, despite unarguable evidence of more DNA donors in the sample that MK's and RS's, they will not admit that there can be any form of contamination because they know that as soon as they admit that those other donors are contamination it brings into question RS's and without the Bra clasp they have nothing on him, so we see them instead making crazy claims that just deny reality.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I am taking your words right out of my mouth (again)

Your responsible for your silent approval.At least a couple of you spoke up The minister, the professor, and the lawyer did not.

Baloney; I have made myself clear on this question many times: the Kercher family is benighted by Maresca. And the minister has been more emphatic on this point than I have. They get a pass from me, but their arguments (when they chose to make them public) do not. And there is no such thing as silent approval, as far as I am concerned. If it did, I would call you out for not responding to the names that have been hurled at Amanda.

 

[Kaosium]

Did Confucius say that? Or Mao? Or maybe Kim Jong Un. But you may be right. Uncorroborated, re-heated jailhouse confidences can never have much weight.

I dunno, when I wrote it I thought I was making it up, but thinking about it I may have read it somewhere and it came out by osmosis when I was typing. Sun Tzu mebbe?

I have to mea culpa on that a bit myself, so if I criticize them by hindsight it also applies to me to an extent. If you go back you will find those who were critical before it started, whereas I was somewhat critical but also cautiously optimistic, and did take up the argument in defense of the lawyer's strategy. Aviello I didn't have much confidence in, however Alessi because of his corroborators, especially one who would be cloaked in the courtroom as he was a government witness in another case, I had some hope for. However all anyone ever talked about was Alessi and poor Tommy (the toddler he kidnapped and later killed with a shovel to escape or something) and no one hardly mentioned the government witness. I don't even remember the name.

However it did make for some entertainment, if you weren't following it you wouldn't believe how weird it got. You'd think I was pulling your leg if I even gave you the mild version, the truth is going to have to be toned down for the movie because it got utterly bizarre. One possible benefit was Mignini took to the kookiness like stink on socks, he wanted more court time to explore this new conspiracy he (perhaps?) created or discovered. It was weird.

 

[yimyammer]

Well, true enough, hindsight is 20-20. However the old adage: 'when fighting a rat stay out of the sewer, he knows it better than you' might apply.

OK, I just made that up, (I think) but I suspect they underestimated Mignini there.

in that vein:

Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.