Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[js202]

yeah but why would he do that if he could almost walk in around back thru the window around back that is much more secluded.

maybe he just likes attracting attention to himself hurling large rocks at windows and then climbing up 13 feet twice, first time to pry open the external shutters, all within site of the main road b/c the other more logical entry point was just too easy.

then there is the fact there's no evidence on the exterior of the house or in that bedroom that he ever came in that way which is amazing if he's outside in the yard looking around for rocks then climibing up and down twice and sharp glass gives an oppoturnity for cutting himself and the entire climb through the window would seem to present some opportunies for DNA removal by pressure being applied to his skin and some rubbing action.

The only problem with all of this is: 1) the big rock found resting in a torn bag in Filomena Romanelli's room; 2) the broken window in its wake; 3) ballistics and glass shards lodged in the interior shutters, completely consistent with the rock being thrown from the outside; 4) the fact that Rudy Guede is known to have broken into second story windows, previous to the night he raped and murdered Meredith Kercher; 5) Occam's Razor.

Now that you see the shot into the window was eminently doable, look at the crime scene photos. Coupled with the points above, the truth will set you free.

 

[DrTesla]

Thanks for this, Charlie. However, it does seem like ALL the journalists, regardless of which side they were on, heard someone on the prosecution say "satanic". However, if it was not strictly satanic, it simply adds to the oddness of "guilters" who call one a liar for simply passing on what journalists heard in the courtroom.

It shows the working of the agenda from that side of the fence. Discredit ANYTHING aimed at Mignini, no matter whether it's truthful or not.

Me, I will let lurkers decide. With Knox's book out, there are many combing the Internet and finding sites like this.

all it matters is what the jury decides. the only jury so far that has heard all the evidence against Knox has convicted her on a 8-0 count, even after Mignini was foaming at the mouth about Satanism. So really you are just making the case the evidence against her was so great that the jury voted her guilty by a 8-0 margin despite the fact they must have understood the prosecuter was a nutjob.

you ought to change your screenname to Mincemeat b/c a man on here (some say a hero) is slicing and dicing you.

 

[RandyN]

Why don't sharks attack lawyers? Professional courtesy

They had two years to prepare. TOD wasn't dealt with well. They didn't do a sound test from Nara's. They demurred from taking the chance of accusing the police of bad behavior during the interrogation putting themselves ahead of the client. They didn't find Curatolo's drug history. They may have missed some deadlines, although the court shouldn't have prevented their requests.

I don't think you were following the case back then. I can't list all the things missed but I'm sure others here can add to the list.

ETA - How much they were paid? Biscotti and the other lawyer did a bang up job for Rudi and weren't paid much at all. This was a case to make one's bones on. Besides we all know that it was multiple million dollar defense.

99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

These guys more than stunk. They failed to do the climb. They failed to get copies of all cctv that either did or did not show AK and RS moving about the night of the murder, they failed to object enough to get the orders of the SC concerning the illegal interrogation upheld during the first trial...the prosecutor and judge simply sidestepped that by combining Lumumbas case with the murder case. They should have gone right back to the SC to report that corrupt maneuver. They failed to make an issue of not being provided DNA discovery material ...in every single trial phase. I dont think they even objected when Pacelli called Amanda a witch...or Lucerifina...how hard is it to rise and ask for proof of the allegations? Finally they didnt have the balls to defend the fact that Amanda was struck and abused by the police. This in light of facts that RS and PL also would make the same claims. And that all 3 were denied lawyers that night....I know Grinder already said this one but these little cowards left Amanda to state the truth herself and they did NOTHING to bolster her position and the truth about that.

Hellmann and Zanetti won the appeal case for Knox...her and RS lawyers were unnecessary and mostly useless. It was Zanetti that asked the questions that the defense should have been asking all along.

 

[DrTesla]

The only problem with all of this is: 1) the big rock found resting in a torn bag in Filomena Romanelli's room; 2) the broken window in its wake; 3) ballistics and glass shards lodged in the interior shutters, completely consistent with the rock being thrown from the outside; 4) the fact that Rudy Guede is known to have broken into second story windows, previous to the night he raped and murdered Meredith Kercher; 5) Occam's Razor.

Now that you see the shot into the window was eminently doable, look at the crime scene photos. Coupled with the points above, the truth will set you free.

the fact rudy broke into houses was probably revealed to Knox when they were talking at some point. She's a creative writing major, so she likes talking about stuff, exploits of people, and given Rudy had a boner for her, as the drug guys downstairs testified, to he would want to impress her or at least make her laugh with entertaining stories about his exploits.

it also should be pointed out that just b/c he broke into other houses doesn't mean he broke into this one. there's no evidence that he broke into this one, and he also didn't have a history of breaking into a house where the occupants and the people downstairs all knew him and I don't get the impression he's that dumb.

the glass distribution on the windowsill and the fact that none of it was outside in the yard, not even being knocked off the windowsill by the intruder by accident or on purpose so he could rest his knee to reach up to the window latch to open the window. none of the glass on the windowsill moved past the boundary that the external shutters give when they are closed or partially closed and therefore the rock from thrown from the inside with the shutters partially or full closed, and Filo testified the shutters were mostly closed when she left b/c she pulled them in.

we've beat this topic to death so I will not respond to it again. There's no way a jury is going to find Rudy came in through that window and Knox's defense team were destroyed on this point. Give the fact the defense lawyers even proposed two guys in prison were Rudy's coconspirators in the appeals trial, it seems like they acknowledged at least indirectly the intruder thru the window / lone wolf scenario is dead on arrival.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I am disgusted by attacks on the Kerchers. I have said this many times. This kind of malicious sniping contributes nothing to what we are trying to discuss. It brings shame to those of us who support Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[js202]

all it matters is what the jury decides. the only jury so far that has heard all the evidence against Knox has convicted her on a 8-0 count, even after Mignini was foaming at the mouth about Satanism. So really you are just making the case the evidence against her was so great that the jury voted her guilty by a 8-0 margin despite the fact they must have understood the prosecuter was a nutjob.

you ought to change your screenname to Mincemeat b/c a man on here (some say a hero) is slicing and dicing you.

Are we reading the same thread? In fact, with multiple posts over the last few pages thoroughly demolishing your positions, you've been climbing a full-fledged bluff. And I'm still waiting for your theory of Knox's and Sollecito's direct involvement in the death of Meredith Kercher, utilizing the crime scene photos of the murder room.

 

[DrTesla]

I am disgusted by attacks on the Kerchers. I have said this many times. This kind of malicious sniping contributes nothing to what we are trying to discuss. It brings shame to those of us who support Amanda and Raffaele.

Did you visit with the Kerchers? Seems fair if you went to see Knox in prison. One wonders if you visited with the Kerchers, and had not gone to see Knox in prison, if you would be pro-guilt in this case. I think knowing the players in the case tends to lead to some bias.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I do agree with you, the villains here are Mignini and Maresca, and I've little doubt what you've said is true, I've said the same.

However it's also true that Maresca inserted them in the case against the Sollecitos, he also took up the civil suit against Amanda's parents. Those are people trying to defend their children against a fate not unlike that their own daughter suffered, and Maresca did his best to harass and inhibit that.

Mignini wanted life for both of them, Rudy Guede gets off easy while the Knox and Sollecito families face this unending nightmare. Maresca is their representation and he's represented either a profit motive or mindless vengeance.

What else could have compelled him to take up the civil suit against the Knox/Mellas family and inserted the Kerchers into the suit against the Sollecitos? Could there have been somebody who asked him not to represent them this way?

Personally I think they should take Maresca to court, this is Italy, there must be something they could charge him with! Perhaps lying to them about the nature of the case, Maresca's no fool, he knew better, he protested the opening of the knife, he knew it had never drawn Meredith's blood.

I think I agree with just about everything you stated, and hence my absolute dislike of Maresca. If MK had been my daughter I would have wanted my lawyer to find the truth, no matter how bad that made the authorities look. Maresca has no intention of finding out the truth for his clients. He lies to them, uses them, and cuddles up to the prosecution working with them to bury the truth. A lawyer that really had his client's best interests at heart would have dug through the case and when he found out the truth sued the pants off the ILE and Mignini for their actions.

 

[DrTesla]

Are we reading the same thread? In fact, with multiple posts over the last few pages thoroughly demolishing your positions, you've been climbing a full-fledged bluff. And I'm still waiting for your theory of Knox's and Sollecito's direct involvement in the death of Meredith Kercher, utilizing the crime scene photos of the murder room.

I am under no delusions that I can convince everybody. my arguments are targeted ONLY to people with open minds, and open hearts.

all I need is 8 people for a conviction.

 

[js202]

the fact rudy broke into houses was probably revealed to Knox when they were talking at some point. She's a creative writing major, so she likes talking about stuff, exploits of people, and given Rudy had a boner for her, as the drug guys downstairs testified, to he would want to impress her or at least make her laugh with entertaining stories about his exploits.

it also should be pointed out that just b/c he broke into other houses doesn't mean he broke into this one. there's no evidence that he broke into this one, and he also didn't have a history of breaking into a house where the occupants and the people downstairs all knew him and I don't get the impression he's that dumb.

the glass distribution on the windowsill and the fact that none of it was outside in the yard, not even being knocked off the windowsill by the intruder by accident or on purpose so he could rest his knee to reach up to the window latch to open the window. none of the glass on the windowsill moved past the boundary that the external shutters give when they are closed or partially closed and therefore the rock from thrown from the inside with the shutters partially or full closed, and Filo testified the shutters were mostly closed when she left b/c she pulled them in.

we've beat this topic to death so I will not respond to it again. There's no way a jury is going to find Rudy came in through that window and Knox's defense team were destroyed on this point. Give the fact the defense lawyers even proposed two guys in prison were Rudy's coconspirators in the appeals trial, it seems like they acknowledged at least indirectly the intruder thru the window / lone wolf scenario is dead on arrival.

You are turning Occam's Razor on its head. You are doing far too much work to argue against the simplest explanation.

As was his MO as a known burglar, Rudy Guede threw an appropriately sized rock through a window from an eminently manageable vantage under the cover of night. Then he leapt up through the window, and the tragic events of that night were set in motion.

 

[PhantomWolf]

i'm not saying it isn't maybe possible that he slung a 10 lb rock over a span of 8 to 10 feet but he would really have to zip it b/c gravity is going to start working real quick. I think we are getting close to challenging the laws of physicas and you would have a real big force j vector working on this rock in the downward direction. I would say that isn't not an unreasonable estimate that his throw at to be at least 100 mph of this 10 lb rock and probably much more than that to assure it even makes it to the window. I don't think we are appreciating the force of gravity on a 10 lb rock as much as maybe we should. This would be interesting to try as an experiment, I will concede that much.

Hang on, did you just suggest that gravity applies a greater force on a larger object than it does a smaller one? I am sure that another Italian, one by the name of Galileo Galilei, debunked that nugget of bovine excretement nearly 500 years ago!

 

[js202]

I am under no delusions that I can convince everybody. my arguments are targeted ONLY to people with open minds, and open hearts.

all I need is 8 people for a conviction.

Eight Italians fluent in English, mind you. Who also happen to be thoroughgoing denizens of the Interwebs.

But of course the more honorable thing to do would be to admit the ways in which you have been proven dead wrong as this thread has unfolded. With surely more yet to come.

 

[Bill Williams]

all it matters is what the jury decides. the only jury so far that has heard all the evidence against Knox has convicted her on a 8-0 count, even after Mignini was foaming at the mouth about Satanism. So really you are just making the case the evidence against her was so great that the jury voted her guilty by a 8-0 margin despite the fact they must have understood the prosecuter was a nutjob.

you ought to change your screenname to Mincemeat b/c a man on here (some say a hero) is slicing and dicing you.

If you are referring to the Dec 2009 conviction, I'll do you one better. I saw Barbie Nadeau on CNN (quite later) explaining to the TV audience how on earth a jury could convict based on the evidence which was presented in court. (Even with a "nut-job" of a prosecutor.)

I've repeated Barbie's words over and over, because she's always on her best behaviour when on CNN in fron of their camera when they are paying the bill... she said, "They convicted, yes, but you have to understand that if the prosecution case was weak, the defence case was weaker and uncoordinated. This could very well be overturned at appeal, as about 50% of these first stage convictions are."

Again, for the lurkers out there - we're all waiting for the March 26 SC's motivations report, the Supreme Court sent this back to the appeals level and in essence quashed the Hellmann acquittals. What we're waiting for is the "why" of the "quashing" and as I understand it (but could be wrong) the SC could direct the new Florence appeal's level court to examine a narrow area of fact-finding, given that the Supreme Court does not do fact-finding itself.

The motivations report could be as simply as, "Clear up the issue of multiple attackers and we'll sign off on what you find as long as you found it lawfully."

But the motivations report could direct a full appeal's trial. Indeed, even if the SC only directs a retrial on some narrow grounds (ie. clarifying multiple attackers, or redoing the DNA review) the appeal's trial is a fact finding trial....

What I'm saying is that if someone as friendly to the prosecution as Barbie Nadeau says what she says, there is grounds for someone like me to be optimistic about the new appeal's trial. Also, As friendly to the prosecution as author John Follian is (in his books, he is privy to the very thoughts of police and prosecutor as the narroavtie unfolds), the middle part of Follain's "A Death in Italy" is a recounting of how the prosecution case unravelled at trial.

The way I would put it, to which you-know-who here will disagree, by the time Dec 2009 rolled around and the Massei court was rendering a vierdict, it just had not unravelled enough.

By the time, 90 days later, Judge Massei issued his own motivations report - that report is a record of how much he prosecution's case had unravelled. Things that guilters were reporting as "fact" in 2008 ("fact", because the prosecution was alleging it in the media (cf. John Follain's Oct 2008 description of Mignini's Satanic-rite motive).....

.... were off the table by the time Judge Massei had to make sense of this mess. Instead of a satanic-ritual, or even the "Amanda hates Meredith" motive they ended the trial with, Massei found no motive, save for a "momentary choice for evil." Massei also found as factual no mixed-blood, no psychopathology for Sollecito and Knox, no bad relationship between Knox and Kercher, no forensic presence of Knox in the murder room, no prior contact between Knox and Guede (save for incidental meetings), etc.

There are still guilters stuck in 2008 claiming "mixed blood", and "bad relationship", and that stuff has not been found factual at all.

By the time Hellmann's court ruled, the whole prosecution case had unravelled... and it is now up to a new Florence appeals court to agree or disagree.

Strangely, I go with Barbie Nadeau, who back in Dec 2009 said that the prosecution case was weak, and probably going to be overturned at appeal like, as she said, 50% of 1st level verdicts are.

Again.... read for yourself. Don't believe me. Don't believe Charlie. Don't believe Kaosium, and don't get Anglolawyer going about the lamp!!!!

 

[Supernaut]

Both to a degree.

I disagree with your attacking the Kerchers, they have done nothing wrong in this case other then trust the Italian authorities and so there is no need for it, besides it actually hurts your case when you attack people have also lost a daughter to the scum that is RG and who are victims of the same system that ensared AK and RS. There is just no need for it.

As to the second, attacking another poster is against the rules of the board.

re. high-lighted;

I'm afraid not.

The Kerchers have made it clear that they are are pursuing a "guilty" verdict.

It's perfectly obvious that it isn't for "justice for Meredith", but because they hope to collect millions from the estates of Amanda Knox and (particularly) Raffaele Sollecito.

The Kerchers are a bunch of stupid thugs, well at home with their counter-parts in Perugia.

Meredith seems to have been the 'black sheep' of the family, to an extent - university-material, unlike her low-IQ siblings and parents.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Halloween ritual vs. satanic ritual

Nina Burleigh wrote, "As late as October 2008, a year after the murder, he told a court that the murder 'was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite [that] in the intention of the organizers … should have occurred 24 hours earlier' – on Halloween itself – 'but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organized by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day.'"

 

[PhantomWolf]

the fact rudy broke into houses was probably revealed to Knox when they were talking at some point.

What language were they talking in?

 

[Grinder]

I had to google that and still don't get it

There was a character named the professor on the show.

Taking Bill's cue, I propose that all posts hereafter be addressed to the lurkers, like declamations in the Forum. Friends, Lurkers, Countrymen, I come to bury Grinder, not to praise him etc.

How many lurkers are there? Two? Two hundred? Two million?

People that never comment love Grinder!

 

[Kaosium]

Back in 2008, one of the PMF people, who called himself Damian, had a blog on which he translated Italian media coverage of the Kercher murder investigation and pre-trial. He translated an October 19, 2008 article in Messaggero Umbria, summarizing an interview in which Mignini described his theory of the crime. It included the following:

...what’s more, the three, and especially Sollecito, were very susceptible to ‘cultural’ influences, erotic-murders which have already been spoken about. That night was the feast day of the Saints, the Catholic ‘heir’ to the Celtic new-year Samhain, with all the implications which are focused on the eve of the feast day, that is the night between Oct 31 and Nov 1.

On October 20, La Nazione reported the following, as translated by Damian:

Meredith could have died on the evening of Oct 31st because that night was favourable for a ’sexual rite’ in accordance with the traditions of Halloween. For this reason, according to the police, Amanda, who is believed to be both the instigator of the crime and the person who carried it out, was looking for Meredith and sent her numerous sms messages. [ ... ]

However, the house wasn’t free - the young Italian women were having dinner there - and Meredith spent the whole evening with her English friends. “Amanda (and Raffaele) tried to meet Meredith on the evening of Halloween and this explains their position of observation on the steps near via della Pergola overlooking the house, as described by Curatolo,” says the public prosecution.

At this time, Mignini was trying to explain away the problems in Curatolo's testimony by claiming the junkie must have seen Amanda and Raffaele on both Halloween and the night of the murder. But Amanda was able to prove she was elsewhere on Halloween, and Mignini eventually dropped this idea.

In any case, this is the origin of the satanic theory reported by various UK outlets. Mignini's defenders were quick to point out that it is not precisely satanic. Fair enough. It is still a crackpot fantasy with no basis in fact.

There is no doubt Mignini (along with other investigators) proposed a satanic cult conspiracy to explain the Monster of Florence killings. FBI experts and others who have looked at these cases believe they were the work of a necrophiliac who cut away the genitals of his female victims and removed them from the crime scene so he could use them for his fetish activity. This is a rare type of criminal behavior, but one with well-known precedents.

Mignini believed the murders were commissioned by a satanic cult, and he proposed a theory that has no precedents. He speculated that the membership of this cult, which has never been proven to exist, included some of the leading citizens of Florence. According to Mignini, they purchased the severed genitalia for use in their rituals. That is how Mignini ended up asking for more than 20 indictments following his investigation of the Narducci drowning, and it is why he tapped the phones of his colleagues in Florence. He thought Narducci was a cult member who was killed because he had become a security risk, and he thought investigators in Florence were covering up the conspiracy.

Thank you Charlie. I don't think Machiavelli realized it but the whole truth makes Mignini look even nuttier.

I came up with this looking around for it:

Meredith Kercher was killed when the three suspects plotted a drug-fuelled orgy - inspired by Halloween, Marilyn Manson and Japanese comics, a prosecutor claimed.

But the tryst turned fatal when she refused and was subjected to a "cult-like ritual", an Italian court heard.

State prosecutor Giuliano Mignini told the trial Meredith had her throat cut in a "sect-like ritual" the day after a Halloween party where she had been pictured dressed in a vampire-like costume.

Rudy Guede, 21, American Amanda Knox, 21, and Raffaele Sollecito, 24, are accused of her murder.

Ivory Coast-born drifter Guede's DNA was found on Meredith's body, but he denies involvement in her killing.

Mignini told the court: "There was a sect-like aspect with cultural connections to Halloween and All Saints Day playing a part. The killing actually happened the next day. Japanese comics found in Raffaele Sollecito's possession had pictures of murdered female vampires which were eerily similar to the scene of the crime."

What's this about Masons now? Narducci was a Freemason, and Mignini has said that he's felt pursued ever since he tried to connect that to the Monster of Florence.

Just before the final summing up in the Knox appeal began, Mignini discussed his handling of an older case, the "Monster of Florence" serial killer, and his belief that his investigation of the 1985 death of a freemason, Francesco Narducci, that he linked to the case was mysteriously blocked.

"I have felt under attack ever since I investigated Narducci," he told the Guardian. "It all started there."

 

[PhantomWolf]

I am disgusted by attacks on the Kerchers. I have said this many times. This kind of malicious sniping contributes nothing to what we are trying to discuss. It brings shame to those of us who support Amanda and Raffaele.

I totally agree. Go after Mignini and Maresca all you like, but leave the Kerchers out of it.

 

[DrTesla]

You are turning Occam's Razor on its head. You are doing far too much work to argue against the simplest explanation.

As was his MO as a known burglar, Rudy Guede threw an appropriately sized rock through a window from an eminently manageable vantage under the cover of night. Then he leapt up through the window, and the tragic events of that night were set in motion.

talking about Ozars razor is your debate trick, you want to present yourself as some kind of legal mind by talking about a legal principle. But you are not demonstrating that you understand the principle. I must scoff anybody advocating for Knox, who told a huge whopper about a bloody bathmat boogie scoot, wants to lecture me about Ozars razor.

Your logic is basically that is that we convict people based on what they have done before and be close minded to any possibility that this scenario was different. That's a dangerous logic. First, he was never convicted for burgarly which is amazing if he has done this time and again and caught doing it. As I pointed out, his history didn't including robbing people he knew and I don't think he ever even targeted a house in Perugia, they were in other cities. You keep playing up this idea he has experience, but at the same time you present him as the dumbest burglar around willing to expose himself to potential witnesses by throwing a 10 lb rock at a window and climbing up twice all within sight of a parking lot and main road when a easier path of entry was available to him on the other side of the house that he would have been aware of b/c it was near the front door of the drug guys he was friends with. it also doesn't make much sense he would target this house for a burgarly given it's obvious the occupants were not rich, and then upon all that effort in breaking in, not to take anything but some cell phones and maybe 300 dollars from the victim? Why would rudy want to throw Filo's clothes on the floor, as it looks like the rest of the room was undisturbed and he did not even search for anything much less take anything from her room. Does he have an interest in female fashion?

And then we must conclude by examing the floater he left in the toilet. I just cannot envision a burglar who probably does not know when the occupatans are going to return, at best he is guesing but you never know if an occupant may have a change of plans and return, I cannot envisions such a burglar in a danergous situation of breaking into a place where he is not supposed to be, sitting down on the toilet and dropping the boys off at school given this is a very vulnerable positon to be in. Your goal as a burglar is to get in, grab the loot, and get out as soon as possible. the turd in the toilet seems to indicate Rudy was taking his sweat time and then he doesn't take anything, and this was all preceded by him putting maximum effort and exposing him to witnesss both via sound and sight to break into the high window. One must conclusde that Rudy was at the house socially prior to the murder, and if he was there socially, he was there with Knox and Raffe.

if the chit don't fit this scenario, you must not acquit Knox.

I rest my case. Next.