Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[DrTesla]

Rather than just pick on John Follain of the Sunday Times, try this from Peter Popham of The Independent, 19 Oct 2008

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/knox-stabbed-kercher-in-neck-as-part-of-satanic-rite-966242.html



How many citations count as proof?

if he said it in court, shouldn't there be a transcript of him saying it in court?

I'm letting you bait me into this dumb debate b/c it doesn't even matter if did say it was about a satanic rite b/c they can't really prove a motive theory and the jury came up with their own motive as you acknowledge.

the reality is there overwhelming proof the two were at the cottage that night and victim's dna on the bleached knife at Raffe's house. you guys want to talk about the motive theory b/c that is obviously much more murky than the positive evidence against the two accused.

Clear eyes, full heart, can't lose

 

[Bill Williams]

again if Mignini said this was his motive we should have several quotes of him talking about it. in reality even if somehow your lies could be made true, all that matters is what motive theory he talks about in his closing statement at the end of the trial, and that was it was about tensions b/t the two girls over Knox's active sexlife and maybe over money

Which finally gets to the point.... even that motive was rejected by the Massei court.

Why do you keep advancing motives which have never been deemed factual? I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to deem things as court-approved-factual.

 

[js202]

I feel sorry for you man. you really got some issues. you act like the trial testimony doesn't exist where it clearly is demonstrated Patrick's lawyer, not Mignini, talks about the she devil thing which is posed in more of a question which is little more than is she innocent (an angel as she looks in court) or in reality is she guilt, therefore a devil, that he spiced up with a little dramatic flair.

Barbie Nadaue, who lives in Italy, speaks Italian, and has been to most of the Knox court hearings, has written that Mignini did not ever propose a satantic rite theory. she said that the police investigators did bounce around the idea that it associated with Halloween in some way but that was pre-trial before Mignini's involvement.

again if Mignini said this was his motive we should have several quotes of him talking about it. in reality even if somehow your lies could be made true, all that matters is what motive theory he talks about in his closing statement at the end of the trial, and that was it was about tensions b/t the two girls over Knox's active sexlife and maybe over money

Keep feeling sorry, pal. But, as others have suggested, in the mean time, you might want to educate yourself about this case.

You can start with consulting some of the articles featuring Meredith Kercher's father John, who mentions several times that he buys into the theory about the significance of the murder being committed on Halloween. Here's one, which includes excerpts from his book. When it comes to his thoughts on Sollecito and Knox, it's clear he's been misled by the theories of the prosecutor, and by his odious attorney Maresca.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...-father-Its-Amanda-Knox-justice-daughter.html

 

[PhantomWolf]

You should cringe because Mignini and Maresca will have seen to it Rudy will be eligible to get out of prison before the vendetta being pursued against two innocent college kids winds through the Italian Court System.

There's utterly no moral superiority anyone supporting that can pretend to. If you don't like people wondering if you're profiteering off a death, then don't try to do it. Especially at the expense of justice done to the one with actual evidence against them and a perfectly normal narrative and motive, not one some lunatic hypothesized on the basis of a mistaken arrest on bogus evidence which was disproved by the forensics.

Kaosium, I have little issue with these feelings towards Mignini and Maresca, personally I believe that they have shown via their actions that they are both bottom feeding scum. The Kerchers however are in this via no fault of their own. They lost a daughter and trust the authorities. It's not their fault that Mignini and Maresca are lying to them, and to be honest, it not surprising that they believe those lies, a lot of people do, and some of those are likely far more aquainted with the case than the Kerchers are. At first glance the case is compelling, the mixed DNA, the footprints, the DNA on the knife and bra clasp, the confessions. If that is all you look at, and I suspect that it is what the Kerchers have looked at, and your counsel is constantly telling you that the Defence is a bunch of lies, it is unsurprising that this is what you would believe. The Kerchers are major victims in this. First Rudy stole their daughter from them, asnd then the police, Mignini and Maresca stole any chance they had of truly understanding and coming to peace with the case. Disparaging them at all is plain wrong.

 

[Supernaut]

Super, you just lost a HUGE amount of respect from me. Reported.

So we're clear;

is it my 'disrespecting' the Kerchers, or telling Briars to "spin on it" that you take umbrage with?

 

[Bill Williams]

if he said it in court, shouldn't there be a transcript of him saying it in court?

I'm letting you bait me into this dumb debate b/c it doesn't even matter if did say it was about a satanic rite b/c they can't really prove a motive theory and the jury came up with their own motive as you acknowledge.

the reality is there overwhelming proof the two were at the cottage that night and victim's dna on the bleached knife at Raffe's house. you guys want to talk about the motive theory b/c that is obviously much more murky than the positive evidence against the two accused.

Clear eyes, full heart, can't lose

You mean like a single Y-allele that included half the males in the courtroom, and a speck of rye-grain on a non-existent groove in a knife which matched nothing at the scene? That is overwhelming proof? Where's the overwhelming forensics like what there was on the first day that pointed to Guede?

Again, this is for lurkers. Read the Conti-Vecchiotti report. And if those who claim guilt like Patriza Stefanoni's work so much, why were they at the end of the Hellmann trial screaming for another test of the DNA evidence, essentially a redo of Stefanoni's work? All she had to do was release the EDF files to demonstrate her work was pristine.

Once again lurkers, don't believe me on this! Do your own research and thinking.

 

[RandyN]

that's an interesting picture but how do we know the angle of the camera that took it, b/c i got the feeling that it's severely pointed down and maybe to the left some as well, b/c this picture doesn't seem to match the ones of the exterior of the building, which is what we need to look at to be sure.

do you know the specific address of the House of Horrors? i shall like to view this cottage on Google Maps to get my bearings if possible.

another thing we need to establish is how far out do the external shutters swing out...can they be pushed all the way adjacent to the exterior wall. b/c if it not, if there is a limit to how far they swing out, say to a point perpendical to the wall, than the rock must have been thrown from a point almost directly in front of the window, I would think, or it would be blocked by the shutters, which probably would rule out this parking lot at higher elevation b/c I think it is a good bit over the right as you look toward the high window from the outside. Also it just doesn't seem like rudy is going to a hoist a very large rock from a parking lot adjacent to the road at this house unless he has a wish to be seen and go to jail.

Well here is a look from outside towards the inside...your argument is getting weaker and weaker.

I like all the J vector talk but it seems designed to baffle with BS rather dazzle with brilliance...

Notice the low parapet walkway outside the fence. Rudy stood here to make his easy lob...the outer shutters open fully against the wall. Do you understand that there are inner shutters as well?

dbl click to enlarge...

 

[Kaosium]

That was the case before: the prosecutor had to agree to the fast track trial and the judge had to accept the request (438 - 443 C.P.P).

The procedure was modified in 1999 (Legge 16.12.1999 n° 479), now the prosecutor doesn't have a say in it, and the judge is forced to accept the request; basically the defendant can have the fast track trial if so wishes, noone can stop it.

Ah, thank you for the information, I suppose that was a legal reform, and probably relieves some of the weight on the system. It also would have taken a little power and leverage away from the prosecutor which probably wasn't a terrible idea.

 

[js202]

if he said it in court, shouldn't there be a transcript of him saying it in court?

I'm letting you bait me into this dumb debate b/c it doesn't even matter if did say it was about a satanic rite b/c they can't really prove a motive theory and the jury came up with their own motive as you acknowledge.

the reality is there overwhelming proof the two were at the cottage that night and victim's dna on the bleached knife at Raffe's house. you guys want to talk about the motive theory b/c that is obviously much more murky than the positive evidence against the two accused.

Clear eyes, full heart, can't lose

Any chance you might want to cast your clear eyes upon post 3121, which invites you to use the photographic evidence in this case to support some of your more vivid theories? I suspect I'm not alone in looking for specific rebuttals, avoiding the smoke and hyperbole, where at all possible.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Easy to say in hindsight. Not so easy when you're the one making these judgment calls blind.

If you go back and look at the thread at the time, you'll see that a number of us thought it was unwise prior to to them doing it.

 

[js202]

Well here is a look from outside towards the inside...your argument is getting weaker and weaker.

I like all the J vector talk but it seems designed to baffle with BS rather dazzle with brilliance...

Wouldn't take much of a basketball player to make that shot, would it, RandyN? I played pitcher through American Legion baseball, and I suspect I could still rather easily hurl any number of rocks through that window - 5 pounds to 25 - with relative ease, and accomplish the desired effect. Whatever was handy in that range...

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium, I have little issue with these feelings towards Mignini and Maresca, personally I believe that they have shown via their actions that they are both bottom feeding scum. The Kerchers however are in this via no fault of their own. They lost a daughter and trust the authorities. It's not their fault that Mignini and Maresca are lying to them, and to be honest, it not surprising that they believe those lies, a lot of people do, and some of those are likely far more aquainted with the case than the Kerchers are. At first glance the case is compelling, the mixed DNA, the footprints, the DNA on the knife and bra clasp, the confessions. If that is all you look at, and I suspect that it is what the Kerchers have looked at, and your counsel is constantly telling you that the Defence is a bunch of lies, it is unsurprising that this is what you would believe. The Kerchers are major victims in this. First Rudy stole their daughter from them, asnd then the police, Mignini and Maresca stole any chance they had of truly understanding and coming to peace with the case. Disparaging them at all is plain wrong.

I do agree with you, the villains here are Mignini and Maresca, and I've little doubt what you've said is true, I've said the same.

However it's also true that Maresca inserted them in the case against the Sollecitos, he also took up the civil suit against Amanda's parents. Those are people trying to defend their children against a fate not unlike that their own daughter suffered, and Maresca did his best to harass and inhibit that.

Mignini wanted life for both of them, Rudy Guede gets off easy while the Knox and Sollecito families face this unending nightmare. Maresca is their representation and he's represented either a profit motive or mindless vengeance.

What else could have compelled him to take up the civil suit against the Knox/Mellas family and inserted the Kerchers into the suit against the Sollecitos? Could there have been somebody who asked him not to represent them this way?

Personally I think they should take Maresca to court, this is Italy, there must be something they could charge him with! Perhaps lying to them about the nature of the case, Maresca's no fool, he knew better, he protested the opening of the knife, he knew it had never drawn Meredith's blood.

 

[DrTesla]

Wouldn't take much of a basketball player to make that shot, would it, RandyN? I played pitcher through American Legion baseball, and I suspect I could still rather easily hurl any number of rocks through that window - 5 pounds to 25 - with relative ease, and accomplish the desired effect. Whatever was handy in that range...

yeah but why would he do that if he could almost walk in around back thru the window around back that is much more secluded.

maybe he just likes attracting attention to himself hurling large rocks at windows and then climbing up 13 feet twice, first time to pry open the external shutters, all within site of the main road b/c the other more logical entry point was just too easy.

then there is the fact there's no evidence on the exterior of the house or in that bedroom that he ever came in that way which is amazing if he's outside in the yard looking around for rocks then climibing up and down twice and sharp glass gives an oppoturnity for cutting himself and the entire climb through the window would seem to present some opportunies for DNA removal by pressure being applied to his skin and some rubbing action.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So we're clear;

is it my 'disrespecting' the Kerchers, or telling Briars to "spin on it" that you take umbrage with?

Both to a degree.

I disagree with your attacking the Kerchers, they have done nothing wrong in this case other then trust the Italian authorities and so there is no need for it, besides it actually hurts your case when you attack people have also lost a daughter to the scum that is RG and who are victims of the same system that ensared AK and RS. There is just no need for it.

As to the second, attacking another poster is against the rules of the board.

 

[DrTesla]

Well here is a look from outside towards the inside...your argument is getting weaker and weaker.

I like all the J vector talk but it seems designed to baffle with BS rather dazzle with brilliance...

Notice the low parapet walkway outside the fence. Rudy stood here to make his easy lob...the outer shutters open fully against the wall. Do you understand that there are inner shutters as well?

dbl click to enlarge...

that would have to be one strong throw b/c I think it's been estimated the distance from that walkway to the window is 8 to 10 feet. You are saying that he threw this 10 lb rock so that it went in a direct line from his hand to the window? It's almost got to be a line drive throw from there b/c if b/c if he lobs it up the air more with some arc it's not going to achieve the velocity he needs to shatter the glass. lobbing it up in the air would also make it more difficult to hit the window b/c you would have to hope it starts its descent at such a point to hit the window, and you would probably need a least a few practice throws to get a lob throw to be successful but then as I have said you are risking much less velocity at point of impact, and it's the impact velocity that is the key variable if you want to break the glass.

also, isn't this a parking lot? how do we know if there were not cars there. for all we know there were cars there and it would have made the throw more difficult from a physical standpoint, and he's just exposing himself to witnesses as they drive in and park off the main road where people can also see him.

i'm not saying it isn't maybe possible that he slung a 10 lb rock over a span of 8 to 10 feet but he would really have to zip it b/c gravity is going to start working real quick. I think we are getting close to challenging the laws of physicas and you would have a real big force j vector working on this rock in the downward direction. I would say that isn't not an unreasonable estimate that his throw at to be at least 100 mph of this 10 lb rock and probably much more than that to assure it even makes it to the window. I don't think we are appreciating the force of gravity on a 10 lb rock as much as maybe we should. This would be interesting to try as an experiment, I will concede that much.

Did the defense team ever try to conduct this amazing direct line throw of a 10 lb rock from 8 to 10 feet away?

 

[Bill Williams]

i'm not saying it isn't maybe possible that he slung a 10 lb rock over a span of 8 to 10 feet but he would really have to zip it b/c gravity is going to start working real quick. I think we are getting close to challenging the laws of physicas and you would have a real big force j vector working on this rock in the downward direction.

Wow, I'm convinced. When does gravity NOT work? The force vector down would be as Isaac Newton proposed.... it's a constant no matter the mass. One of the Apollo astronauts demonstrated this on the moon with a hammer and a feather.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_constant

Do you just make things up for fun?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Back in 2008, one of the PMF people, who called himself Damian, had a blog on which he translated Italian media coverage of the Kercher murder investigation and pre-trial. He translated an October 19, 2008 article in Messaggero Umbria, summarizing an interview in which Mignini described his theory of the crime. It included the following:

...what’s more, the three, and especially Sollecito, were very susceptible to ‘cultural’ influences, erotic-murders which have already been spoken about. That night was the feast day of the Saints, the Catholic ‘heir’ to the Celtic new-year Samhain, with all the implications which are focused on the eve of the feast day, that is the night between Oct 31 and Nov 1.

On October 20, La Nazione reported the following, as translated by Damian:

Meredith could have died on the evening of Oct 31st because that night was favourable for a ’sexual rite’ in accordance with the traditions of Halloween. For this reason, according to the police, Amanda, who is believed to be both the instigator of the crime and the person who carried it out, was looking for Meredith and sent her numerous sms messages. [ ... ]

However, the house wasn’t free - the young Italian women were having dinner there - and Meredith spent the whole evening with her English friends. “Amanda (and Raffaele) tried to meet Meredith on the evening of Halloween and this explains their position of observation on the steps near via della Pergola overlooking the house, as described by Curatolo,” says the public prosecution.

At this time, Mignini was trying to explain away the problems in Curatolo's testimony by claiming the junkie must have seen Amanda and Raffaele on both Halloween and the night of the murder. But Amanda was able to prove she was elsewhere on Halloween, and Mignini eventually dropped this idea.

In any case, this is the origin of the satanic theory reported by various UK outlets. Mignini's defenders were quick to point out that it is not precisely satanic. Fair enough. It is still a crackpot fantasy with no basis in fact.

There is no doubt Mignini (along with other investigators) proposed a satanic cult conspiracy to explain the Monster of Florence killings. FBI experts and others who have looked at these cases believe they were the work of a necrophiliac who cut away the genitals of his female victims and removed them from the crime scene so he could use them for his fetish activity. This is a rare type of criminal behavior, but one with well-known precedents.

Mignini believed the murders were commissioned by a satanic cult, and he proposed a theory that has no precedents. He speculated that the membership of this cult, which has never been proven to exist, included some of the leading citizens of Florence. According to Mignini, they purchased the severed genitalia for use in their rituals. That is how Mignini ended up asking for more than 20 indictments following his investigation of the Narducci drowning, and it is why he tapped the phones of his colleagues in Florence. He thought Narducci was a cult member who was killed because he had become a security risk, and he thought investigators in Florence were covering up the conspiracy.

 

[DrTesla]

Back in 2008, one of the PMF people, who called himself Damian, had a blog on which he translated Italian media coverage of the Kercher murder investigation and pre-trial. He translated an October 19, 2008 article in Messaggero Umbria, summarizing an interview in which Mignini described his theory of the crime. It included the following:

...what’s more, the three, and especially Sollecito, were very susceptible to ‘cultural’ influences, erotic-murders which have already been spoken about. That night was the feast day of the Saints, the Catholic ‘heir’ to the Celtic new-year Samhain, with all the implications which are focused on the eve of the feast day, that is the night between Oct 31 and Nov 1.

On October 20, La Nazione reported the following, as translated by Damian:

Meredith could have died on the evening of Oct 31st because that night was favourable for a ’sexual rite’ in accordance with the traditions of Halloween. For this reason, according to the police, Amanda, who is believed to be both the instigator of the crime and the person who carried it out, was looking for Meredith and sent her numerous sms messages. [ ... ]

However, the house wasn’t free - the young Italian women were having dinner there - and Meredith spent the whole evening with her English friends. “Amanda (and Raffaele) tried to meet Meredith on the evening of Halloween and this explains their position of observation on the steps near via della Pergola overlooking the house, as described by Curatolo,” says the public prosecution.

At this time, Mignini was trying to explain away the problems in Curatolo's testimony by claiming the junkie must have seen Amanda and Raffaele on both Halloween and the night of the murder. But Amanda was able to prove she was elsewhere on Halloween, and Mignini eventually dropped this idea.

In any case, this is the origin of the satanic theory reported by various UK outlets. Mignini's defenders were quick to point out that it is not precisely satanic. Fair enough. It is still a crackpot fantasy with no basis in fact.

There is no doubt Mignini (along with other investigators) proposed a satanic cult conspiracy to explain the Monster of Florence killings. FBI experts and others who have looked at these cases believe they were the work of a necrophiliac who cut away the genitals of his female victims and removed them from the crime scene so he could use them for his fetish activity. This is a rare type of criminal behavior, but one with well-known precedents.

Mignini believed the murders were commissioned by a satanic cult, and he proposed a theory that has no precedents. He speculated that the membership of this cult, which has never been proven to exist, included some of the leading citizens of Florence. According to Mignini, they purchased the severed genitalia for use in their rituals. That is how Mignini ended up asking for more than 20 indictments following his investigation of the Narducci drowning, and it is why he tapped the phones of his colleagues in Florence. He thought Narducci was a cult member who was killed because he had become a security risk, and he thought investigators in Florence were covering up the conspiracy.

You understand the Monster of Florence was called the Monster of Florence b/c the murders took place in Florence.

Mignini works in Perugia. He only investigated the possible murder of a doctor who was found dead back in the 1980s on a lake near Perguia. He never was involved in the central MOF case which again took place in Florence, not Perugia, back in the 80s and 90s. the occult theory was not his theory b/c he was not involved in that investigation which took place elsewhere at an earlier time. He cannot be in both Florence and Perugia at the same time. He also can't live in two different time periods at the same time.

Mignini's charges in the Narducci case had to do with the body swap, not the occult theory. He charged them with iinvolvement in that or tyring to cover it up, it was obstruction of justice type of charge. Nothing to do with the occult as I understand it. it was not necessary for him to theorize Narducci was involved in the occult and part of the MOF killings, b/c all he was charged with was investgating if the doctor had been murdered , a theory supported by intercepted phone calls in which people said as much, and the doctor's wife's own belief that he was murdered.

 

[Bill Williams]

Back in 2008, one of the PMF people, who called himself Damian, had a blog on which he translated Italian media coverage of the Kercher murder investigation and pre-trial. He translated an October 19, 2008 article in Messaggero Umbria, summarizing an interview in which Mignini described his theory of the crime. It included the following:

...what’s more, the three, and especially Sollecito, were very susceptible to ‘cultural’ influences, erotic-murders which have already been spoken about. That night was the feast day of the Saints, the Catholic ‘heir’ to the Celtic new-year Samhain, with all the implications which are focused on the eve of the feast day, that is the night between Oct 31 and Nov 1.

On October 20, La Nazione reported the following, as translated by Damian:

Meredith could have died on the evening of Oct 31st because that night was favourable for a ’sexual rite’ in accordance with the traditions of Halloween. For this reason, according to the police, Amanda, who is believed to be both the instigator of the crime and the person who carried it out, was looking for Meredith and sent her numerous sms messages. [ ... ]

However, the house wasn’t free - the young Italian women were having dinner there - and Meredith spent the whole evening with her English friends. “Amanda (and Raffaele) tried to meet Meredith on the evening of Halloween and this explains their position of observation on the steps near via della Pergola overlooking the house, as described by Curatolo,” says the public prosecution.

At this time, Mignini was trying to explain away the problems in Curatolo's testimony by claiming the junkie must have seen Amanda and Raffaele on both Halloween and the night of the murder. But Amanda was able to prove she was elsewhere on Halloween, and Mignini eventually dropped this idea.

In any case, this is the origin of the satanic theory reported by various UK outlets. Mignini's defenders were quick to point out that it is not precisely satanic. Fair enough. It is still a crackpot fantasy with no basis in fact.

There is no doubt Mignini (along with other investigators) proposed a satanic cult conspiracy to explain the Monster of Florence killings. FBI experts and others who have looked at these cases believe they were the work of a necrophiliac who cut away the genitals of his female victims and removed them from the crime scene so he could use them for his fetish activity. This is a rare type of criminal behavior, but one with well-known precedents.

Mignini believed the murders were commissioned by a satanic cult, and he proposed a theory that has no precedents. He speculated that the membership of this cult, which has never been proven to exist, included some of the leading citizens of Florence. According to Mignini, they purchased the severed genitalia for use in their rituals. That is how Mignini ended up asking for more than 20 indictments following his investigation of the Narducci drowning, and it is why he tapped the phones of his colleagues in Florence. He thought Narducci was a cult member who was killed because he had become a security risk, and he thought investigators in Florence were covering up the conspiracy.

Thanks for this, Charlie. However, it does seem like ALL the journalists, regardless of which side they were on, heard someone on the prosecution say "satanic". However, if it was not strictly satanic, it simply adds to the oddness of "guilters" who call one a liar for simply passing on what journalists heard in the courtroom.

It shows the working of the agenda from that side of the fence. Discredit ANYTHING aimed at Mignini, no matter whether it's truthful or not.

Me, I will let lurkers decide. With Knox's book out, there are many combing the Internet and finding sites like this.

 

[Mary_H]

No one left to step in and object to this bottom of the barrel scum talk. Great company for all of you. The writing on the wall must be causing you to loose all sense of decency. The professor should cringe at the thought of one of his students reading whats posted here against a murdered student's family.

The indecent, bottom-of-the-barrel-scum-talk goes both ways. I don't think anyone has objected to DrTesla calling Amanda a dumb bimbo, a callous bimbo, a batty bimbo, a sex kitten, a sex addict, or The Butcher of Perugia. He also has referred to Amanda, Patrizia Stefanoni and Barbie Nadeau as "babes," and wrote, "I painted a masterpiece of Knox and Raffe nude with the cottage in the background and blood dripping down the front of the door."