Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

spying on Rowan and Martin

They are caught outside by the cops sitting on a wall disrupting their clean-up.

I lost you at the bakery.

 

[Grinder]

Highly speculative musings at best, no? Not sure if these are merely bullets for discussion or data points to which you potentially give credence...

Just musings most of which I don't believe and am making fun of a certain perspective. I was pointing out many things that don't make sense from a guilt perspective.

Are we to believe that, in five weeks time, Amanda developed sufficient animus against her roommate so that she would ply a character like Guede to murder her? What could Amanda have learned about Guede - or what could she have on him? - so that she could reliably trust him for such an adventure? Have you seen Hitchcock's Dial M for Murder?

Some theories would have that but I don't believe it. Yes, I've seen it. Maybe they did a pinkie for life thing

Even more implausible, do you honestly believe that, in a little over a week's exposure to AK, Sollecito would concede to break character to such an extent that he would collude in such a thing? Do you agree with the Perugian rustics that Amanda Knox is a witch?

No. But of all the far fetched ideas of the PGP the idea that Raf might have under a trance is the most believable. Not a witches trance.

Psychologically, do you believe it plausible that, if they had really colluded in a way such as your "musings" suggest, would AK and RS have expended such time, energy and emotion to write books and go on interview tours, passionately - some would say, convincingly - proclaiming their innocence? Or, like Casey Anthony, out of fear of being caught out for misstatements, contradictions, lies and the rest, would they have taken stock in the good fortune of their freedom and never be heard from again?

I really don't have an opinion on that. I don't believe that they planned anything and the point was that if they did plan a video alibi it would have been a two hour video.

Just musings most of which I don't believe and am making fun of a certain perspective. I was pointing out many things that don't make sense from a guilt perspective.

 

[js202]

Just musings most of which I don't believe and am making fun of a certain perspective. I was pointing out many things that don't make sense from a guilt perspective.



Some theories would have that but I don't believe it. Yes, I've seen it. Maybe they did a pinkie for life thing



No. But of all the far fetched ideas of the PGP the idea that Raf might have under a trance is the most believable. Not a witches trance.



I really don't have an opinion on that. I don't believe that they planned anything and the point was that if they did plan a video alibi it would have been a two hour video.

Just musings most of which I don't believe and am making fun of a certain perspective. I was pointing out many things that don't make sense from a guilt perspective.

Oh, got it. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

But I did gather from some of your other posts here that you are a third-streamer, as it were. Meaning you suspect some form of limited involvement on the part of AK and RS? If so, are there any spaces for overlap on this in your musings?

 

[Methos]

I don't get the impression reading Borsini-Bellardi that Maresca addressed the court. It's a while since I read it though. There is really only one line in Follain and it's Maresca reacting to the decision. In what forum he doesn't say.

Looks like he and Serena Perna spoke to the court: (from a La Stampa article called "Rudy non molla: "Sono innocente" Battaglia in aula")

"The family of Meredith Kercher, 20 year old girl excited about life and come to Perugia to study, calls for justice and calls for recognition of the guilt of Rudy Guede," said Maresca. Rudy listens to the lawyer who speaks of "truth already attained" and "good judgment at first instance by an excellent judge," as well as "truth of the case, which coincides with the historical one." The lawyers also asked for confirmation of the financial compensation provided for by the preliminary hearing judge to the family of the victim, which is quantified in eight and a half million Euros. The lawyer Serena Perna recalled in the classroom as on Meredith's body has been found 43 injuries, some produced by hand with other edged weapons.

Of "sexual assault peaceful" spoke, however, the lawyer Maresca according to which one is in the presence of 'a framework detrimental complex that sees the presence of several persons' who produced "serious injury." "Rudy Guede was there - the lawyer said - it is not true that he was in the bathroom. He was there and he raped Meredith. "The lawyer Maresca was then briefly focused on the simulation of the theft which he called "peacefully confirmed" and "why Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were convicted." Maresca has sought to stress the dynamics of that night, an excursus "criminal and violent." "When you come into the house Guede, Knox and Sollecito have no intention homicidal. We are facing a fraud that triggered a rush in front of the resistance of Meredith Kercher. "And Meredith is eliminated because he knows the three attackers and they would be reported, would have made ​​their names, they should explain why they had come up to that point. "

 

[Grinder]

Oh, got it. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

But I did gather from some of your other posts here that you are a third-streamer, as it were. Meaning you suspect some form of limited involvement on the part of AK and RS? If so, are there any spaces for overlap on this in your musings?

No. I'm firmly of the mind that the ILE did not prove their case. I can't make sense of any guilty scenario that has been put forward. I think that both sides have spewed stuff that makes no sense or is hyperbole.

I don't think that they have proved their innocence but clearly don't believe that they must. Don't take that to mean I believe in some involvement.

I do understand why the PLE keyed on them and I don't believe that they were framed in the first week. I do believe that ILE became convinced of their involvement over time and wanted to prove themselves correct.

I firmly believe that the police got Amanda to tell them what they wanted about Patrick.

ETA - I think Curatolo, Quintavalle and Nara were not credible witnesses.

 

[Methos]

Btw. There's another La Stampa article on the reduction of the verdict and the reaction of Maresca: "Perugia, pena ridotta a Guede: 16 anni"

A ruling that the Kercher family lawyer Francesco Maresca, however, "confirms the work of the power of attorney 'who led the police investigation. "

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The way I imagine it, he had her up against the wall beside the bed. She was facing the wall and he was behind her, holding her hair or and holding the knife against her throat. The lamp got knocked to the floor around here. She was semi-passive, steadied herself with her bloody hand, making the print on the wall but then began to panic and freak out, which is how it came about that the action swung across the room like Hendry describes.

What I can't picture is how they got into that initial position nor how the little smudge on the left wall above the bed was made.

Bingo. You've got it exactly. They might have gotten into that initial position because she heard him in the corridor, stepped out to investigate, and he chased her back into her room, grabbed her, and pushed her up against the wall. Or he might have just burst into the room.

Hendry thinks the stain above the bed was made with bloody fabric, maybe produced when he lofted the quilt to spread it out over her body, or by the edge of a towel brushing against the wall when he wiped his hands prior to leaving it at the foot of the bed.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The only physical evidence against Raf, the shoe prints of Rudi, went away the day before the Dec 2 evidence gathering.

Does anybody know why they looked for new evidence under the pile of stuff where the clasp had ended up?

IIRC Raf had been there more than once. I'm interested in knowing how the other people's DNA got there. If there were any towels left in the bathroom as a rule when Raf washed his hands he would dry them. Meredith might also use the same towel just before putting on her bra and transfer his DNA to the clasp.

I can't believe that any movie with a plot line of finding the only DNA of a suspect in the manner Raf's was would be believable.

I think a cop planted it. He didn't have a clean reference sample, so he rubbed it against a dirty sock or some other article of clothing that had been worn by Raffaele. Then the cops called the scientific police back to the cottage for bloodstain analysis and luminol testing, and mentioned that they couldn't find the bra fastener so be sure to look for it.

 

[Grinder]

I think a cop planted it. He didn't have a clean reference sample, so he rubbed it against a dirty sock or some other article of clothing that had been worn by Raffaele. Then the cops called the scientific police back to the cottage for bloodstain analysis and luminol testing, and mentioned that they couldn't find the bra fastener so be sure to look for it.

This the only instance where I do believe they may have planted something.

With the news that the shoe prints were a match for Rudi's shoes and not Raf's the ILE was left with absolutely nothing to tie him to the murder.

One thing that has always baffled me is that Raf's DNA wasn't on the kitchen knife. It must have been there at some point, indicating that cleaning had removed all of his DNA.

The problem of planting is that they didn't plant on the knife. Why didn't they get a drop of blood and put it on the knife?

 

[anglolawyer]

I think a cop planted it. He didn't have a clean reference sample, so he rubbed it against a dirty sock or some other article of clothing that had been worn by Raffaele. Then the cops called the scientific police back to the cottage for bloodstain analysis and luminol testing, and mentioned that they couldn't find the bra fastener so be sure to look for it.

Well, since we are conspiracy theorising, I think the actors in the film know throughout where the clasp is. They make a great performance out of rummaging through all the clothes, looking in the corner where the rug is, going back to the kitchen to look at crime scene photos on the laptop and miming: 'oh, that's where it was - on the floor! Let's go look there.'

The rug is perfect because naturally it will have protected the clasp from contamination in all that time. It's as perfect as the soon-to-be-rusted little hooks themselves.

 

[anglolawyer]

This the only instance where I do believe they may have planted something.

With the news that the shoe prints were a match for Rudi's shoes and not Raf's the ILE was left with absolutely nothing to tie him to the murder.

One thing that has always baffled me is that Raf's DNA wasn't on the kitchen knife. It must have been there at some point, indicating that cleaning had removed all of his DNA.

The problem of planting is that they didn't plant on the knife. Why didn't they get a drop of blood and put it on the knife?

Repeatability. It had to be LCN in order not to be repeatable. LOL. I have said this about 5 times and no one pays the slightest attention

 

[Antony]

I think a cop planted it. He didn't have a clean reference sample, so he rubbed it against a dirty sock or some other article of clothing that had been worn by Raffaele. Then the cops called the scientific police back to the cottage for bloodstain analysis and luminol testing, and mentioned that they couldn't find the bra fastener so be sure to look for it.

Steady on, Charlie. One of the distasteful things about this discussion is the way some of the PGP will say "I think such-and-such happened" without anything to back it up. Of course we can be fairly sure that the multiple DNA traces on the clasp hook resulted from contamination, but whether from deliberate fixing or merely from recklessness is a matter of speculation.

More to the point, the C&V report identified that Raff's trace can't even be confirmed as being present, as the elements of it seem to have been put together from reading points that don't necessarily come from the same individual. The key to this is the knowledge that the prosecution had a "science" lab at their disposal that could be depended upon to produce the result that they needed to make their case.

 

[anglolawyer]

Bingo. You've got it exactly. They might have gotten into that initial position because she heard him in the corridor, stepped out to investigate, and he chased her back into her room, grabbed her, and pushed her up against the wall. Or he might have just burst into the room.

Hendry thinks the stain above the bed was made with bloody fabric, maybe produced when he lofted the quilt to spread it out over her body, or by the edge of a towel brushing against the wall when he wiped his hands prior to leaving it at the foot of the bed.

Yes, I guess that could explain that smudge.

I suppose she might have had her back to the door when he came in and that's how he jumped her from behind.

 

[Grinder]

Repeatability. It had to be LCN in order not to be repeatable. LOL. I have said this about 5 times and no one pays the slightest attention

Perhaps that's because if they had planted a small amount of blood on the knife the test wouldn't have been LCN and would have been repeatable. If they had come back with a non-LCN result planting would be the only way to explain it away.

Now in terms of sequencing, the knife was collected well before the shoes went bad so perhaps at that time they weren't as concerned about the knife, still hoping to find the smoking knife gun.

 

[Grinder]

Vogt is out with another schadenfreude piece on Knox's hardcover book sales.

This made me wonder what else this sterling writer had been covering for the last year.

Three Amanda Knox stories and a contributor to an olive oil container story. Including the uncovering of the keyhole caper.

Hypocritical that the PGP have no problem with Vogt et al. making their "careers" on the murder of Meredith.

I always thought the big sales are kindle and paperbacks.

 

[Kaosium]

This the only instance where I do believe they may have planted something.

With the news that the shoe prints were a match for Rudi's shoes and not Raf's the ILE was left with absolutely nothing to tie him to the murder.

One thing that has always baffled me is that Raf's DNA wasn't on the kitchen knife. It must have been there at some point, indicating that cleaning had removed all of his DNA.

The problem of planting is that they didn't plant on the knife. Why didn't they get a drop of blood and put it on the knife?

Raffaele may never have used that knife, it wasn't even his. He had several and liked using his flick knife anyway, like he did when he cooked at the cottage.

I've got several kitchen knives in my drawer I haven't used for years, I imagine most people do.

 

[Kaosium]

Looks like he and Serena Perna spoke to the court: (from a La Stampa article called "Rudy non molla: "Sono innocente" Battaglia in aula")

Thank you, Methos. My google-Italian skills are rusty, so I'm not sure what to make of this, but this line here

"The lawyer Maresca was then briefly focused on the simulation of the theft which he called "peacefully confirmed" and "why Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were convicted."

makes me wonder. Mignini helped convict Raffaele and Amanda by not pursuing burglary charges against Rudy and keeping the illusion of a staged break-in alive. Maresca was right by his side it appears from this.

I wonder how this case may have gone down differently had some other prosecutor handled Rudy's case. This was a loophole Mignini opened up by gaming the system.

 

[anglolawyer]

Perhaps that's because if they had planted a small amount of blood on the knife the test wouldn't have been LCN and would have been repeatable. If they had come back with a non-LCN result planting would be the only way to explain it away.

Now in terms of sequencing, the knife was collected well before the shoes went bad so perhaps at that time they weren't as concerned about the knife, still hoping to find the smoking knife gun.

huh? You could be more obscure.

It would be nice if everything were neat and tidy. I am pretty sure there never was any genetic material of Meredith Kercher on that knife but it puzzles me that we have the info to make it possible to be so sure. It's true that everything came out piecemeal so that partly explains it, but the truth is pretty much out there now (but for the EDFs) and yet Stefanoni is inexplicably not in jail. I guess it's not so easy to fabricate without leaving tell-tales.

And as you say, they plucked the knife on 06 Nov, long before the Nikes dropped out of the case (and I am not at all sure the 18 Dec visit was a reaction to that development) when it's reasonable to imagine they thought they had genuinely solved the case and should not have been resorting to black ops.

All very strange.

 

[yimyammer]

do you know the specific address of the House of Horrors? i shall like to view this cottage on Google Maps to get my bearings if possible

VIA PERGOLA, 7,06122 PERUGIA, UMBRIA, ITALY

 

[Dan O.]

Ah, Borsini-Bellardi is Rudy's Corte d-'Assise appeal hearing from December 2009. There is very good translation here. It's an important document.

Thanks for the link. I only had time to quickly scan it but noticed this jem:

based on the statements made by Dr. Stefanoni, the clasps present on the piece of clothing [bra], on which the genetic profile of Sollecito was found, were found to be twisted, showing that force had been applied to remove them, while the edge of the garment [bra] seemed to have a clean cut, suggesting that it was cut by a knife,

I have to assume that this Stefanoni person is actually blind for not seeing that what she saw as a clean cut line on the end of the bra band was actually outside of the stitch line visible in the photographs.