Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[js202]

what's interesting to me is Knox enjoys the novel Crime and Punishment.

if you are not familiar with the book, the main character in the book decides to kill this old woman with an axe and steal money from her, as he reasons she doesn't need it any way b/c she will be dead soon. he became obsessed with this idea of killing her even though he knew it wasn't rational but he decided to do it anyway. I was struck by the similarities to Knox who stole Meredith's money it appears, and well as Knox's irrational obsesson with butchering her roommate with a knife.

the rest of the book is him about being paranoid about being caught and I kind of forget the reast of it, he does some good deeds I think (this is supposed to inform us he isn't all evil but a complex person) and then I believe the end the book is about confessing to his crime and seeking redemption.

you guys aren't helping Knox, you think you are, but if you really wanted to help her you would be encouraging her to tell the truth and to seek redemption. Mignini, in fact, wants to help redeem her, not convict her.

Amanda needs to tell us why she butchered poor Meredith that night. going to jail is the only thing that will ease herr mind if she has conscience at all. why did you commit this heinous crime, Amanda, why?

As a trained engineer, have you had the opportunity yet to look at the exhaustive crime scene photos Charlie Wilkes recently posted in this thread? If so, based on the blood pattern on the floor, the aspirated blood on the "closet", the fact that there was aspirated blood both on the victim's bra and her breasts, and, lastly, the size and arrangement of the room, please provide specific argumentation that falsifies Charlie Wilkes' and Ron Hendry's theory of the crime. Ad hominem insults - or generic wise cracks - tossed in their general direction will serve as evidence that you are unable to disprove their theory.

Based on the blood pattern on the floor and the size of the room, where in the space do you suppose Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito engaged in some form of celebratory sex as Ms. Kercher expired, as you so charge? Why do you suppose no blood or DNA evidence was found on either Ms. Knox or Mr. Sollecito after the crime? Why are Ms. Knox's clothes from the evening clearly pictured in the crime scene photos, on her bed and without a trace of blood on them? Positing your theory of their direct involvement in the murder, and subsequent sexual adventures in Ms. Kercher's blood, how can there have been no blood evidence found on either Knox or Sollecito?

As a person trained in the sciences, I have faith you understand your inability to answer with specificity to any are all of these questions will indicate that your position lacks merit.

 

[Kaosium]

I don't get the impression reading Borsini-Bellardi that Maresca addressed the court. It's a while since I read it though. There is really only one line in Follain and it's Maresca reacting to the decision. In what forum he doesn't say.

Thank you, I came across that cite in the wiki and wondered what it could have referred to.

What is Borsini-Bellardi BTW? The name Borsini rings a vague bell but I cannot place it.

 

[anglolawyer]

Thank you, I came across that cite in the wiki and wondered what it could have referred to.

What is Borsini-Bellardi BTW? The name Borsini rings a vague bell but I cannot place it.

Ah, Borsini-Bellardi is Rudy's Corte d-'Assise appeal hearing from December 2009. There is very good translation here. It's an important document.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Speed Vac

If you were to speculate, what would be some of the more likely causes of those two extra peaks?

DNA from the lab itself is my first thought. Let's assume that Stefanoni used a Speed Vac to reduce the volume of her sample. Speed Vacs are centrifuges run under a vacuum (they are also called vacuum concentrators). The centrifuge tubes one uses in this step must have their tops left open, to allow the solvent vapors to escape. A negative control run under the same conditions would have been essential.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

why not appeal the reduction

I was just wondering if he 'protested' in the press or actually contested Rudy's mitigations (legally in court) which were responsible for the reduction in sentence.

If that happened I would have expected it to be a PMF talking point as opposed to them just saying over and over there was nothing anyone could do about the deal Rudy ended up with.

It is my understanding that the prosecution could have contested the mitigation reduction via an appeal at the Supreme Court. Too bad that they did not.

 

[GWCarver]

Ah, Borsini-Bellardi is Rudy's Corte d-'Assise appeal hearing from December 2009. There is very good translation here. It's an important document.

Wow, thanks for the link - I had never read that before. I'm just reading along, thinking OK, OK, Ok, then - Bam!, the following nonsense:

"It is therefore more reasonable to conclude that the defendant’s entrance into the girls’ apartment on Via della Pergola was with the help of Amanda Knox.

The arguments in favor of this hypothesis are: 1) the fact that the two knew each other (other than the various witness statements, Amanda also admits it during a conversation with her father, which was overheard when under surveillance on 20th November 2007 at the Capanne prison in Perugia); 2) the fact that there were no signs of a break-in through the front door; 3) the fact that, as we will see later, the breaking of the glass in Romanelli’s bedroom was a mise-en-scène [staged]; 4) the fact that both Knox and Sollecito were present at the scene of the crime, not only because, after his intial reticence Guede himself admits it, though providing vague references to the latter [Sollecito], who he probably must have seen with Amanda given the intense love story between the two, but on which it seems he had not focused his attention; but also due to the objective evidence obtained during the course of the investigation."

I really hope the Supreme Court didn't throw out the acquittals because of the above. That would be stupid and tragic, given they were not in court to defend themselves, and weren't even on trial.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

43 wounds inflicted by a single attacker. Impossible. Or is it?

One-on-one knife attacks sometimes leave a victim with hundreds of stab wounds, if the attacker is enraged or mentally unstable.

Meredith had two puncture wounds under her chin and a deep gash in her throat. Those were the major knife wounds. She also had a shallow cut parallel to the gash, and a couple of minor knife pricks on her throat and under her chin.

She had a series of fingertip bruises on the right side of her jaw.

She had a couple of defensive cuts on her right hand.

She had some minor bruising on her hips and extremities.

Maybe you can add up every small contusion and blemish and get 43 wounds. What is more important is the pattern of injuries, which shows emphatically that Meredith was attacked by one assailant who held her from behind, controlling her with his left hand and the weight of his body, and wielding a knife in his right hand. And that is exactly consistent with the bloodstain patterns in the room.

Everyone who has really studied the crime scene and the autopsy report can see this. It is obvious. Therefore, the prosecution and Massei had a problem. They solved the problem as follows:

- They got the experts to concede that an unspecified scenario involving multiple attackers was theoretically possible and could be consistent with Meredith's injuries.

- On that basis, they announced that the experts all agreed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person, and they avoided going into detail.

I have attached a working sketch from Mignini's cartoon video, which somehow leaked out to the press. Mignini made the mistake of trying to get into detail, which is why Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked his cartoon to the media.

Notice the position of the three attackers. They are standing back, because the bloodstain patterns in the room require that for any scenario with multiple attackers. The figure on the left almost looks as though he is trying to help the victim to her feet.

That is not realistic for a knife attack against a victim who is fighting for her life. It is not what happened. Meredith was in roughly that position when her throat was cut, as shown by the aspirated blood on the closet - but she had one guy behind and on top of her, gripping her tightly, using the full weight of his body to control her while he reached around and cut her throat with the knife in his right hand.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sorry I should have added this into the last post.

Why would you not believe that the Bra Clasp was contaminated? It had more donors than just MK and RS on it, so unless you are going to claim that all of the donors touched the hooks of MK's bra there has to have been contamination in some form. Whether or not you believe that RS's DNA got there via contamination is one thing, but to deny that there was contamination at all is just denying reality.

Because I find it most unlikely that Raff had these balls of DNA rolling around the apartment, I believe he was there only for a few hours on Nov 1st and about an hour on Nov 2nd, 3/4 hours at most, while people that lived there would be thousands of hours, why wasn't their DNA on the clasp. Now if you want to say it was deliberately put there that would be far more likely, though I don't know why this would happen either.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

autosomal DNA on the clasp

We know that there is autosomal DNA not belonging to Meredith or Raffaele on the clasp (There is also Y chromosomal DNA). There are no reference profiles from Laura or Filomena, and even if there were, the unknown profiles are probably not complete enough to allow for much to be said about the identities of the donors. Yet the DNA is there.

 

[anglolawyer]

Because I find it most unlikely that Raff had these balls of DNA rolling around the apartment, I believe he was there only for a few hours on Nov 1st and about an hour on Nov 2nd, 3/4 hours at most, while people that lived there would be thousands of hours, why wasn't their DNA on the clasp. Now if you want to say it was deliberately put there that would be far more likely, though I don't know why this would happen either.

Try and think of some reasons. While you're about it, try and work out why they left the clasp at the scene and didn't go back for it for 46 days.

 

[yimyammer]

Ann Wise of ABC news reported on his testimony about the rock and the broken window: "By analyzing the trajectory of the rock and the projection of the glass shards, Pasquali said he could 'exclude that the glass could have been broken from the inside.'"

from the photos I've seen, I always thought this was pretty obvious and was surprised at the claim of it being staged from the inside. Staged from the outside is the way the argument should have been (IMO) if they wanted to argue staging

 

[anglolawyer]

One-on-one knife attacks sometimes leave a victim with hundreds of stab wounds, if the attacker is enraged or mentally unstable.

Meredith had two puncture wounds under her chin and a deep gash in her throat. Those were the major knife wounds. She also had a shallow cut parallel to the gash, and a couple of minor knife pricks on her throat and under her chin.

She had a series of fingertip bruises on the right side of her jaw.

She had a couple of defensive cuts on her right hand.

She had some minor bruising on her hips and extremities.

Maybe you can add up every small contusion and blemish and get 43 wounds. What is more important is the pattern of injuries, which shows emphatically that Meredith was attacked by one assailant who held her from behind, controlling her with his left hand and the weight of his body, and wielding a knife in his right hand. And that is exactly consistent with the bloodstain patterns in the room.

Everyone who has really studied the crime scene and the autopsy report can see this. It is obvious. Therefore, the prosecution and Massei had a problem. They solved the problem as follows:

- They got the experts to concede that an unspecified scenario involving multiple attackers was theoretically possible and could be consistent with Meredith's injuries.

- On that basis, they announced that the experts all agreed that Meredith was attacked by more than one person, and they avoided going into detail.

I have attached a working sketch from Mignini's cartoon video, which somehow leaked out to the press. Mignini made the mistake of trying to get into detail, which is why Massei threatened to jail anyone who leaked his cartoon to the media.

Notice the position of the three attackers. They are standing back, because the bloodstain patterns in the room require that for any scenario with multiple attackers. The figure on the left almost looks as though he is trying to help the victim to her feet.

That is not realistic for a knife attack against a victim who is fighting for her life. It is not what happened. Meredith was in roughly that position when her throat was cut, as shown by the aspirated blood on the closet - but she had one guy behind and on top of her, gripping her tightly, using the full weight of his body to control her while he reached around and cut her throat with the knife in his right hand.

The way I imagine it, he had her up against the wall beside the bed. She was facing the wall and he was behind her, holding her hair or and holding the knife against her throat. The lamp got knocked to the floor around here. She was semi-passive, steadied herself with her bloody hand, making the print on the wall but then began to panic and freak out, which is how it came about that the action swung across the room like Hendry describes.

What I can't picture is how they got into that initial position nor how the little smudge on the left wall above the bed was made.

 

[Grinder]

Musings:

They planned the evening and knew that they could not be identified because the victim would be dead by the end of the event.

They therefore turned off their phones even though leaving them on with the ringer volume turned down at Raf's would make more sense. They started a video that could provide an alibi but chose one that only lasted 20 minutes instead of a longish movie of 2 hours.

They somehow arranged to meet Rudi or happened to meet him on the way. He was to bring strong drugs and was promised sex with Meredith, dead or alive. As I understand it the only evidence at all of Amanda being out of the house before 9 was the text message from PL but no video from stores or the police cams.

They then went to the plaza to wait for Rudi to show at the gate. They may have gone there at some time before 11:30 though they were impeded by the car and tow truck from about 10:30 to 11:15. Perhaps they met Rudi around 10 pm and then did the dust and returned to the plaza. It must be noted that drug tests on them turned up nothing even though hair retains drug evidence for as long as the hair grows.

They return to the cottage just before midnight (Curatolo's original testimony) and find Meredith murdered. Amanda screams. They decide that because they were at the house and let Rudi in they will clean up, well not really, and walk around in the blood. They then wash off leaving blood visible on the sink and Raf's footprint on the mat.

They then decide to get a large rock and throw it through the window. Although they went into Meredith's room they know they left no DNA behind because they brought Amanda's lamp in to make sure. They lock the door because they don't want anyone to get in there because... oh yeah they want to control the investigation.

They go to Raf's and clean again. They spend the night cutting up their clothes and flushing them down the toilet. Their shoe's that aren't missing were hidden somewhere.

They get up early and make love to the Doors' Light My Fire
and then to throw off the cops Amanda goes to a store and peruses the cleaning supplies she doesn't need and buys nothing for their trip to Gubbio.

Instead of going to Gubbio she goes to the cottage to double check for DNA but leaves the bloody mat and drops on the faucet. She calls her mother minutes BEFORE they call the cops and for no reason. They are caught outside by the cops sitting on a wall disrupting their clean-up.

 

[Grinder]

Because I find it most unlikely that Raff had these balls of DNA rolling around the apartment, I believe he was there only for a few hours on Nov 1st and about an hour on Nov 2nd, 3/4 hours at most, while people that lived there would be thousands of hours, why wasn't their DNA on the clasp. Now if you want to say it was deliberately put there that would be far more likely, though I don't know why this would happen either.

The only physical evidence against Raf, the shoe prints of Rudi, went away the day before the Dec 2 evidence gathering.

Does anybody know why they looked for new evidence under the pile of stuff where the clasp had ended up?

IIRC Raf had been there more than once. I'm interested in knowing how the other people's DNA got there. If there were any towels left in the bathroom as a rule when Raf washed his hands he would dry them. Meredith might also use the same towel just before putting on her bra and transfer his DNA to the clasp.

I can't believe that any movie with a plot line of finding the only DNA of a suspect in the manner Raf's was would be believable.

 

[anglolawyer]

Are you quoting that from the Massei report?

 

[yimyammer]

I have found the exact same thing, but with both sides, I've said for quite a while now, if the truth ever be known, I'm sure both sides have some of it right and some of it wrong, neither side will admit the wrong, neither side believes there is an in between.

I agree buddy, both sides do it but only one can be right. I think people get married to a position and pride or stubbornness gets in the way of adjusting ones views if the evidence shows you should. Add in the contentious nature of the conversations and it exacerbates one's unwillingness to admit they were wrong.

You'd probably enjoy the forum where I followed this case for years.....Here the consensus seems to be innocence but the moderation stops the divisive name calling crap and it creates a nice environment for discussing the case.

Over @ the other forum its all guilt except for one relentless guy (that actually posts or lurks here, he's how I heard about JRef) that fights endlessly with one main guy that leads the case for guilt. Typical response from the Main PGP poster is to begin a reply to a post by calling that person an idiot, retard, troll and/or a paid Amanda Knox shill. Hard to discuss the case in that environment so I quit following it there.

 

[anglolawyer]

The only physical evidence against Raf, the shoe prints of Rudi, went away the day before the Dec 2 evidence gathering.

Does anybody know why they looked for new evidence under the pile of stuff where the clasp had ended up?

IIRC Raf had been there more than once. I'm interested in knowing how the other people's DNA got there. If there were any towels left in the bathroom as a rule when Raf washed his hands he would dry them. Meredith might also use the same towel just before putting on her bra and transfer his DNA to the clasp.

I can't believe that any movie with a plot line of finding the only DNA of a suspect in the manner Raf's was would be believable.

Yes. I know. I have a bootleg copy of the script for the 18 Dec movie. But, before I share it with you, I should just point out the clasp was not found under the pile of stuff but under the small rug on the floor. Ready? Here it is.

Go to apartment. Dress as bunnies. Make song and dance about getting all the fancy little evidence bags out. Rummage professionally among clothes on bed for a while. Find nothing. All. Retreat to kitchen. Stare at laptop. Rub chins thoughtfully. Point at screen. Return to bedroom. Camera focus on far wall not on corner where rug is. Swing round to show clasp found. All. Gather round to mark major breakthrough in investigation. Point, shine torch, drop on floor **** it! Pick it up you idiot. Photograph. Go home.

 

[Kaosium]

Ah, Borsini-Bellardi is Rudy's Corte d-'Assise appeal hearing from December 2009. There is very good translation here. It's an important document.

Ah,thanks! I was unaware this was translated. Komponisto's work?

DNA from the lab itself is my first thought. Let's assume that Stefanoni used a Speed Vac to reduce the volume of her sample. Speed Vacs are centrifuges run under a vacuum (they are also called vacuum concentrators). The centrifuge tubes one uses in this step must have their tops left open, to allow the solvent vapors to escape. A negative control run under the same conditions would have been essential.

Well, gee! Perhaps I misunderstand, but considering the nature of all the 'peaks' on that electropherogram, and the requirements for proper LT/LCN DNA work that might well have been where they all were introduced.

What was that Stefanoni said about the fume hood during the re-testing with C&V?

It is my understanding that the prosecution could have contested the mitigation reduction via an appeal at the Supreme Court. Too bad that they did not.

From just glancing through that Borsini document Anglo linked it appeared to me the prosecution's main aim in that conviction was 'proving' a 'staged' break-in and that there were multiple attackers....

Boy did that work out nicely for Rudy Guede!

'Poor, poor Rudy!'

 

[GWCarver]

Yes. I know. I have a bootleg copy of the script for the 18 Dec movie. But, before I share it with you, I should just point out the clasp was not found under the pile of stuff but under the small rug on the floor. Ready? Here it is.

Go to apartment. Dress as bunnies. Make song and dance about getting all the fancy little evidence bags out. Rummage professionally among clothes on bed for a while. Find nothing. All. Retreat to kitchen. Stare at laptop. Rub chins thoughtfully. Point at screen. Return to bedroom. Camera focus on far wall not on corner where rug is. Swing round to show clasp found. All. Gather round to mark major breakthrough in investigation. Point, shine torch, drop on floor **** it! Pick it up you idiot. Photograph. Go home.

And, it occurred on the day after Raffaele's people had proved the shoe print was not made by Raffaele's shoe. Just a coincidence, I'm sure, like so many things in this case.

 

[js202]

Musings:

They planned the evening and knew that they could not be identified because the victim would be dead by the end of the event.

They therefore turned off their phones even though leaving them on with the ringer volume turned down at Raf's would make more sense. They started a video that could provide an alibi but chose one that only lasted 20 minutes instead of a longish movie of 2 hours.

They somehow arranged to meet Rudi or happened to meet him on the way. He was to bring strong drugs and was promised sex with Meredith, dead or alive. As I understand it the only evidence at all of Amanda being out of the house before 9 was the text message from PL but no video from stores or the police cams.

They then went to the plaza to wait for Rudi to show at the gate. They may have gone there at some time before 11:30 though they were impeded by the car and tow truck from about 10:30 to 11:15. Perhaps they met Rudi around 10 pm and then did the dust and returned to the plaza. It must be noted that drug tests on them turned up nothing even though hair retains drug evidence for as long as the hair grows.

They return to the cottage just before midnight (Curatolo's original testimony) and find Meredith murdered. Amanda screams. They decide that because they were at the house and let Rudi in they will clean up, well not really, and walk around in the blood. They then wash off leaving blood visible on the sink and Raf's footprint on the mat.

They then decide to get a large rock and throw it through the window. Although they went into Meredith's room they know they left no DNA behind because they brought Amanda's lamp in to make sure. They lock the door because they don't want anyone to get in there because... oh yeah they want to control the investigation.

They go to Raf's and clean again. They spend the night cutting up their clothes and flushing them down the toilet. Their shoe's that aren't missing were hidden somewhere.

They get up early and make love to the Doors' Light My Fire
and then to throw off the cops Amanda goes to a store and peruses the cleaning supplies she doesn't need and buys nothing for their trip to Gubbio.

Instead of going to Gubbio she goes to the cottage to double check for DNA but leaves the bloody mat and drops on the faucet. She calls her mother minutes BEFORE they call the cops and for no reason. They are caught outside by the cops sitting on a wall disrupting their clean-up.

Highly speculative musings at best, no? Not sure if these are merely bullets for discussion or data points to which you potentially give credence...

Are we to believe that, in five weeks time, Amanda developed sufficient animus against her roommate so that she would ply a character like Guede to murder her? What could Amanda have learned about Guede - or what could she have on him? - so that she could reliably trust him for such an adventure? Have you seen Hitchcock's Dial M for Murder?

Even more implausible, do you honestly believe that, in a little over a week's exposure to AK, Sollecito would concede to break character to such an extent that he would collude in such a thing? Do you agree with the Perugian rustics that Amanda Knox is a witch?

Psychologically, do you believe it plausible that, if they had really colluded in a way such as your "musings" suggest, would AK and RS have expended such time, energy and emotion to write books and go on interview tours, passionately - some would say, convincingly - proclaiming their innocence? Or, like Casey Anthony, out of fear of being caught out for misstatements, contradictions, lies and the rest, would they have taken stock in the good fortune of their freedom and never be heard from again?